Background Blitz :: Workshop Edition :: Concluded

Started by loominous, Wed 14/05/2008 21:43:10

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loominous

Zyndikate:

Quote from: zyndikate on Sat 26/07/2008 22:22:59
anyone know what the main problem can be? Too contrasty values foreground?

I guess you might've tried this, as it's quite an obvious solution, but letting a bit of light pass onto the window area might do the trick. It does ruin some of the mood and nice effect that the side/backlight provides though.



To enhance the effect, I removed some of the foliage next to window area of the house, to increase the contrast there, without boosting any actual values. Another thing was to place parts of the left side of the house in shadow, as if it was blocked by a tree, to lead the eye more towards the window area (and because I like shadows formed by leaves like that).

That's one thing that I find really gratifying with doing backgrounds like these: we can invent conditions that suit the angle we're working in, without there being a risk of compromising other shots.

Btw, I really liked the bush in the center middle in the previous version, that provided a nice bridge to the background part, along with the little hill that came with it. In the latest you instead have something similar to that fog you see in fps games, that looks a bit, I dunno, fake/cheap. I guess that might be one of the parts you have yet to start working on. Seems like the kind of area one leaves to be fixed later on.

Also, I love the pony stick hanging over the sign. Excellent idea and execution.

Quote from: zyndikateonly thing I could think of that isnt in my taste is that have something right infront of that beautiful house, I think I would rather have the breathing room right there. I do understand it gives depth to it with the overlapping, maybe if the gate was less complex I wouldnt mind it.

Yea, I wasn't thrilled with this solution either, and as you can see in earlier versions I tried to keep it from overlapping the house, but with this camera position I couldn't maintain it without separating them to the far sides of the picture.

The simplified gate idea might do the trick, so I'm gonna try that out.

-

Misj:

I guess when I saw your tree design I should've figured you're into straight-ish/vector like lines/designs. I assumed the un-organic quality wasn't intentional.

To clarify, it's not so much that they're not bent, but that they're bent as if they were bezier curves, with completely consistent line thickness. It's kind of like vector graphics on paper.

Which is of course a style choice as good as any other.

Quote from: misjthe house [... ] doesn't look like it's created by men. Maybe if they had a fairy architect, but humans wouldn't do it like that. It's - as you like - too organic.

Hadn't struck me that it could be perceived like this. To me it's a moderately loose design, with a few curved shapes caused by the deterioration. Something that could be found in a Pinocchio like town. I'm actually planning on integrating it far more - when I go into the detail stage - as it currently just stands there right on the grass, which to me is a really boring solution, so I'm gonna add some bushes/flower beds to smoothen out the transition from walls to ground.

As I'm just glad to hear it's this organic looking, and want to be able to repeat this, what elements in particular do you experience as different?

-

Edit:

Oh and zyndikate, any reason for moving away from the more quirky design of your earlier sketches?

Just saw this first sketch, and the design strikes me as much more interesting/dynamic. Want to move towards a more serious look with the latest design?

The first sketch:


Think this old one had a great design and layout.
Looking for a writer

Daniel Thomas

Update:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=34542.msg460981#msg460981

Tweaking and mostly detailing.
I hadnt tried any solutions until todays sit, but I think it was more or less how I tried to solve it, bringing in brighter lights contrasting the window and putting more details around it- not sure if its overdone though, or does it work?

Yea, I decided to go for the more serious/calm mood to fit the background description, and also its a new thing for me and I wanted to test it out. But I do agree that the earlier was much more dynamic and "fun". But Im still trying to have the cartoony look, but a toned down mood.
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Misj'

Minor update...

The pencil sketch is mostly ready. Some things will still have to be added, but these are minor and can be added on different layers. These things include the barn and/or mill, toys, and a (black?) foreground layer that included branches etc.



Quote
I guess when I saw your tree design I should've figured you're into straight-ish/vector like lines/designs. I assumed the un-organic quality wasn't intentional.

To clarify, it's not so much that they're not bent, but that they're bent as if they were bezier curves, with completely consistent line thickness. It's kind of like vector graphics on paper.

Which is of course a style choice as good as any other.

Actually, I'm not into vector constant-thickness-like curves as such (although I do vector as well as pen/pencil-paper depending on what I'm working on, or which look I want to create for a particular piece). It's just that when I pencil I don't want to be bothered with these things (just like I don't bother myself with things like contrast and colour). When I pencil it's all about shape and composition. The thickness of the final lines depends on the method of inking (as specifically the tools used). I haven't decided on the way I will ink this particular piece, but I'm currently partial to digital inking. I'll make a final decision about that tomorrow. Just to give a small example of where I might be going with the inking I did a few quick lines:



Since most of this information (colour, contrast, line-variety) is in my head, and I understand that non of you can read my mind (at least I hope), it is difficult to interpret certain parts of where the image is going, making it somewhat impossible to comment on these things...but I find it easier not to work on each of these things at the same time.

I have decided that this will be my final composition, so the next part will be inking, and adding some minor features.

Misj'

Daniel Thomas

Last update, I couldnt keep my finger off it.
Unless anyone has something to add I think this will be the final value-composition and Ill start adding colors tomorrow.

I think it looks good Misj, will be fun to see where you take it from here.

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Misj'


loominous

Quote from: zyndikate on Sat 26/07/2008 04:15:50
::COLOR::
Click for bigger:


Any comments so far? which one do you think works best and why?

I personally find 1, 4 and 5 most suiting. I'd try finding alternatives to the very yellowy hue of the lit grass part on the left though, which I suspect might be kind of killing the somber mood in 1,2,3 too efficiently - leaving more than a ray of hope. Not sure how it would work out in practice though. The sunlight is yellow/orange after all.

The reason I picked those is also because the others, #3 in particular, have a very clear diversity in colour, leading to a bit of a happy cartoon feel. I think more somber stuff calls for more monochrome palettes, though it's tricky to avoid the dull impression you speak of regarding #1.

One thing you could test is to use more desaturated colours for parts of the image (not saying it should be desaturated overall), as right now it feels like most of the colours you've introduced (apart from parts of #5) have their own clear hue (green being green - not just a colour that appears green).

My eyes may very well be tricked though.

Anyway, a pretty lame bunch of comments, but I just wanted to provide some feedback.
Looking for a writer

Daniel Thomas


Latest - Cleaned-up(alot of artifacts), tweaked.(bad jpg quality though)
I post here, the other page starting to get picture-heavy.
I tried to keep the mood down, to prevent dullness I added accents to the windows - Maybe theyre just a tid too strong right now.

Its hard not to do sunsets, mornings and all those rich and beautiful colors  - weak spot. :)


::UPDATE::

Worked on the mood, going for blue instead for yellow atmosphere to somehow make it more sad and toned down mood. Other then that mostly tweak and alot of cosmetics. (Its not really that sharp details, just that I applied a sharp since it was so much resize)
Things Im wondering: Does the window take _too_ much attention?
Does the colors feel alright?
Anything else that is distractin? Like the broken windows? Wall textures? etc.

Thinking that its starting too like more scary than sad :)

::UPDATE:: sorry for the intensive posting.
Check out The Journey of Iesir Demo | Freelance artist, check out my Portfolio

Misj'

To Zyndikate
I disagree with Loominous. The more monochrome pallete in my opinion doesn't create a more somber impression, just a more depressed (or maybe horror-like) impression. Personally I feel that the more colour-diverse versions have a lot more character.

Also, I believe that within a game - and that is what the background blitz is in theory about - that option is better. If you were to use a single colour-pallete throughout the entire game, it would quickly become bland. And if you don't (and use multiple palletes), than blending in your main character will be more difficult. Unless he too is affected by the pallete of the area he's currently in. But I'm not really partial to that option.

Now if you were to use it for a different medium (eg a book), than it would be a whole different ballgame. But for an ingame background...I don't think the more monochrome look is the best.

To Loominous
Considering the amount of time that I have free to spend on this image, I'll probably need another two to three weeks to finish inking and colouring. I know that's a lot of time to request...

To Zyndikate
A monochromous pallete could work as an ingame, if it were a flashback. Now if I were to write that, I would have one background in more of less desaturated or monochrome colouring where the house is still in it's somewhat glorydays, and second background which is more or less the same, but with a more interesting/diverse colouring in the present day (whenever that is) where decay has clearly affected the house. This also creates a nice contrast: past glorydays-less interesting colouring vs present decay-more diverse colouring.

Misj'

Daniel Thomas

Thanks for the comments!
Yea, this is an interesting subject. I think using monochromatic backgrounds could work, in a practical way, since you can tint all your sprites - this usually needs to be done anyway when walking in diffrent lightet areas.

Its funny when I read the script for the first time I started to imagine that the girl was a lonely ghost in a abandoned orphan - maybe she died there and still whants to play with her friends who long time has grown up and left. Its funny in that way that it come to now when the background seems a little horro-like.
 
Myself likes bright colors, and Im trying something new. Since we have photoshop and other editing applications its so easy to change colors(or anything), so you can try around alot of things.

Whats interesting is why it becomes horror-like and not the sad mood Im really aiming for - Can it be the hard contrast between white and black?(since its so pale everything bright is white and dark is black), can it be the white and but still a little soft-redish fleshtone  which could be a pale skin(corpse death,lifeless). Or just the colors who doesnt has vigor/vitality/life?

You mention it becomes something like a dream, which I think could be a memory - of something that once was a home to many children(Im assuming its closed down, although it wasnt mentioned in script)

In the latest I did yesterday I pushed more brown into it, hoping its more sad(havent posted it yet) - Im going to go out and hunt some references from movies or anything.
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loominous

Finally got around to try some colours:




Larger resolution

Not very happy about it, but it's a start, and sort of capture a melancholy feel.

Must say I dragged my feet quite a bit about this, as I knew that the value sketch called for quite a transformation to fit the theme. Which is a shame since I really liked the look of the value sketch.

Having to open up one of the windows was annoying as well, as they create these weird gaping holes. My intention was to go with the right one, but the large centre one looked less bad, and does provide more space for the character.

Speaking of character, I tried quickly adding one, but the size poses a problem, so I had to go with 800x600 to make her fairly visible.



-

Misj:

Quote from: misj
To Zyndikate
I disagree with Loominous. The more monochrome pallete in my opinion doesn't create a more somber impression, just a more depressed (or maybe horror-like) impression. Personally I feel that the more colour-diverse versions have a lot more character.

You're making the strange assumption that just because I suggested a more monochrome palette, I was proposing a desaturated dull look.

Lots of monochrome looks are bright and saturated:



I personally prefer more varied palettes than those, which is why I suggested a "more monochrome" look, and not "monochrome".

It's mostly about a strong sense of colour cohesion, which is what those colour sketches lacked imo. One problem is that when you add colours like zyndikate did in those colour sketches, you get a similar saturation level in all colour areas, as you're basically "adding some green" "adding some blue" to a neutral canvas. As you're only adding, you build up these colour peaks, which gives this fake/incoherent/kid colouring book look, where only a bit of saturation starts standing out.
Looking for a writer

Misj'

Quote from: loominous on Sun 03/08/2008 15:40:38
Misj:

You're making the strange assumption that just because I suggested a more monochrome palette, I was proposing a desaturated dull look.

Lots of monochrome looks are bright and saturated:

I probably wrote it down wrong. I wasn't making the assumption that you 'considered monochrome and desaturated (or dull)' the same. I was just to lazy to write it down in two sentences when I referred to you saying: "I think more somber stuff calls for more monochrome palettes, though it's tricky to avoid the dull impression you speak of regarding #1. One thing you could test is to use more desaturated colours for parts of the image (not saying it should be desaturated overall)". Then again....I've always been partial to the more cartoony way of colouring, and should really one day practice with monochrome-based colouring, since it's really a great approach for certain looks.

Anyway, to give a minor update on where my background is going:
with pencil sketch

-- click image to enlarge --

ink only (yes Loominous, you may comment on line variability now ;) )

-- click image to enlarge --

Inking is going slower than I had hoped...I just don't have that much time (and of the time that I have I want to spend at least some on other things). But I'll be getting there, and when I do, I will get my next challenge: colouring in in such a way that Solomon - the fictive main character of my fictive version of the story - fits right in. In other words: lots of vibrant cartoony colours. :)

Misj'

Ps. If anyone has some extra time, I would love to see how someone else would colour it. My only concern is, that you guys will probably to a much better job than me.

Pps. Loominous, I like the coloured version. The only thing is, that my eyes focus on the lower window (the one in which you've also added a character) rather then the upper window (where the girl would be sitting accoring to the script). Also, I find the top-right front-layer lowering the overall quality. I think it should either be darker (as in closer to black) with a little more detail, or removed completely.

Ppps. It turns out I was wrong when I told Zyndikate that I would not change the centre-tree... :)

loominous

Quote from: Misj' on Sun 03/08/2008 22:34:49
The only thing is, that my eyes focus on the lower window (the one in which you've also added a character) rather then the upper window (where the girl would be sitting accoring to the script).

Hm, I hadn't thought about the fact that those windows are technically on the first floor. Their high position made me think of them as belonging on the second.

I guess some lower windows might exist on the backside, which would technically make the current one valid.

Quote
Also, I find the top-right front-layer lowering the overall quality. I think it should either be darker (as in closer to black) with a little more detail, or removed completely.

Oh, that part isn't refined, like much of the pic.

-

Oh, and I'll extend for a couple days until you're ready.
Looking for a writer

Misj'

Quote from: loominous on Thu 07/08/2008 00:43:08
Oh, and I'll extend for a couple days until you're ready.

Days...Months...Years...ehhh, who's in a hurry ;)



Minor update to give an impression of where I'm going
(and to show where I am at the moment):

Final inked version:

--- click image to enlarge ---

As you can see, I haven't added a foreground layer or a background layer yet.
Also, the mill and/or farm are nowhere to be found at the moment
And the little children have to live without toys...

Those are things I intend to add before the final version is done.

Getting started with the colouring:

--- click image to enlarge ---

I kept the (initial) colouring very cartoony, vivid, and saturated
(based on the kind of comicbooks that inspired me as a kid).
I'm not sure yet whether I will keep it that way...

Shadows, highlights, and those kind of things will have to wait for the future.

Misj'

Misj'

To keep you guys updated about where I'm going. Here's another intermediate colouring-step:

--- click image to enlarge ---

I think that you can start to see where I'm (slowly) trying to go with this image. There's still a lot that has to be done (I'd love to see some shadows to the tree/leafs on the house for example...and maybe even darken the left to near black or something, many of objects still haven't got dimension/shadows/highlights, still no mill and toys, etc). But you can at least see that I'm still working on it.

Since I'm way past the expiration date, Loominous may decide to close the workshop. If so, then the latest version that I have posted (or will post as soon as I read the announcement) will be my (probably incomplete) entry. I mean...otherwise this could go on till the end of time (or until I'm finished...whichever comes first). :)

Ps. Yes, I know it's a double post...yes I know it's wrong for me to do so...yes I know the moderators will be angry with me... ;)


Snarky

Is anyone else disappointed that despite some variations in art style, all the contributions have chosen pretty similar depictions of the motif? I particular, all the houses look very much alike (Misj's being probably the most different). Usually in the Background Blitzes we get widely divergent contributions. This time around, everyone seems to be working not only on the same scene, but from the same sensibility.

The original instructions just mention a "run-down house", so that ought to leave quite a bit of room for variation. What made everyone go with this particular look? Is it just a matter of people imitating loominous? (That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but personally I get a bit tired of all that old-timey-ness.)

I should also say that I think this Blitz has been a great course in background creation, and will certainly be a great resource, frequently referenced, for a long time to come.

Neil Dnuma

I'm more disappointed by the low number of participants in the end, despite the promising start. It's been going on for three months now, it should be possible to find the time to create one background. With more entries, there'd be surely be more variation, and maybe - I can only speak for myself - more inspirational for the ones taking part.

In order to be 'run-down', or 'worn down to almost unusable state' something has to have been around for a while, that's why I went with the old-timey-ness. I wanted the shape to be interesting, to create some sort of naive charm, that also made me think of old houses. There are of course other possible solutions, but I went with something that made sense to me after reading the script. I didn't have any urge to be particularly original or bring some "unexpected" twist into it, rather to work as I usually do and see if I could learn something new. Which I have from valuable input in this thread. Maybe other blitzes are more varied due to more vague specifications.

Daniel Thomas

Quote from: Snarky on Thu 14/08/2008 03:44:40
Is anyone else disappointed that despite some variations in art style, all the contributions have chosen pretty similar depictions of the motif? I particular, all the houses look very much alike (Misj's being probably the most different). Usually in the Background Blitzes we get widely divergent contributions. This time around, everyone seems to be working not only on the same scene, but from the same sensibility.

The original instructions just mention a "run-down house", so that ought to leave quite a bit of room for variation. What made everyone go with this particular look? Is it just a matter of people imitating loominous? (That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but personally I get a bit tired of all that old-timey-ness.)

I should also say that I think this Blitz has been a great course in background creation, and will certainly be a great resource, frequently referenced, for a long time to come.
Well, personaly its just a matter of taste for me, I like the medieval architecture style. Im not sure exactly what you mean by "same sensibility", could you explain?
I don't see why anyone should be disappointed since I think everyone who took a part of this learned something(and maybe some who didnt participated). Like Neil Dnuma said, Im mostly disappointed about the low number of participants.
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Misj'

Quote from: Snarky on Thu 14/08/2008 03:44:40I particular, all the houses look very much alike (Misj's being probably the most different).

I understand what you mean...but I'm not sure if it's really the house, but rather the general composition of the images. They almost all have the house to the left of the screen, and a bridge leading the player into the scene from the front-left of the background. But on the other hand, in some sketches some of the participants experimented with a 'flipped' composition...but somehow it didn't feel right. So apparently it's the best (or most natural) composition.

As for the house itself, most of them show a certain European design, that is influenced by fairytales (Exsecratus' house is more American, and has a certain 'Tom Sawyer' feel to it). But Zyndikate's version is more 'Grimm', Loominous' version is more 'elf-dwelling', Neil's has a bit of a 'Heidi' feel (but that also could be the mountains), and mine...well, I'm just glad you think it's different form the rest :)

Neil Dnuma
I think you really managed to create an open composition that doesn't feel empty...yet nothing in the background feels forced. The colouring nicely adds to this design, and overall it's an inviting piece.

Zyndikate
It's a little to monotone for my personal taste, but on the other hand, the extra colour in the top-window in it's latest iteration really draws my eyes towards that region. Furthermore, the overall design is clean and functional without being boring. My biggest concern would be the final dimensions of the image. Is it intended to be scrolling (934x480) or does it have a black area for the GUI (640x329)?

Exsecratus
I think the background works very well despite the fact that it's 3D (I'm not that fond of 3D, but that shouldn't stop anyone from using it). I think 3D is even more difficult to 'fill up' correctly than 2D, and I think you did a very good job recreating the atmosphere described in the script. I would love to see you experiment with different weather-conditions, but that's the only comment.

Loominous
I would - naturally - have preferred a bit more colour (maybe in the laundry), and I think the design of the house - while interesting - is a bit unnatural (in a sense of 'no human would build it that way'). As I mentioned earlier, it's almost as if an Elf was hired as an architect. I think it's a little over the top, but it does have character, atmosphere, and does work. I'm also not entirely convinced about having background only visible through the sign, but I understand it based on the composition, and it does draw the eye extra towards the sign, helping the player to see imediately where we are.

Mordalles
It's a pity we didn't see a finished background, because the sketches were definitely different from all the others. Maybe a bit too sinister, but it would have been interesting to see whether it would have worked...pity.

Misj'
So while I'm at it, a minor update of my background
(It's still not finished, but just to keep you posted on the progress).

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