Background Blitz :: Workshop Edition :: Concluded

Started by loominous, Wed 14/05/2008 21:43:10

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Neil Dnuma

Thanks for the nice comments, Misj'. I have some more details to work into it before I'm letting it go.

I'll supplement some more comments too.

Zyndikate: An extreme sense of atmosphere, which I like. Some of the structures (particularly in the vegetation) almost have an abstract quality which ads to the mysterious feeling this piece have, greatly helped by the fog and lightning. It might be just a little too heavy though, but the warmer edit you put up in the end helped lifting the mood. Btw; I am a little puzzled by the lack of any signs of a path on the left side of the bridge (It almost looks like possible visitors changed their mind while on the bridge). I'd love to see your work in a game, maybe one where you pushed in either the "candid" fairytale direction, or darker, more mysterious areas. I feel this bg is a little bit of both worlds, but maybe that's a result of the contrast hinted at in the script.

Exsecratus: Definitely one of the better 3D-backgrounds I've seen. From the little modeling experience I have I know how hard it is to get things looking right, but you've managed this very nicely. I think the joint between the bridge and the path is the only thing that looked a little odd to me. Also I find the position of the sign a little strange. Very nice job, solid atmosphere, and should work great in a game.

Loominous: I agree with Misj' on the house design, It'd be a rare find in the real world, but in eg. a Disney movie it would not be out of place (As a funny sidenote, I have also observed unemployed alcoholics in the neighbourhood where I grew up, who always expanded on their house in strange ways, and ended up with interesting shapes). I think the coloring is fine. I'm usually asleep at sunrise, but the red tone reminds me more of sunsets. I'm also a little puzzled by the very bright light in the horizon, while the lightning clearly is coming from the left. Aside from that, I think there a lot of great little details in this pic, and I especially adore the steps leading to the back of the house.

Misj':A very strong cartoonish quality to the linework, everything looks right for the style, and the shading follows up on this. I was a little bothered by the repeated "Y" shapes at the top of the tree in the foreground. There are five of the lined up, and it just drew my attention. I think maybe the lighting contrast between the right and left hand side is pushed enough by now, it's appearing like different times of the day. It underlines the "flower in a swamp" metaphor, but at the cost of almost becoming distracting. I think maybe some clouds to the left would help this point through in a more realistic way, but then you're not finished yet, so maybe you had something in mind. Still it looks awesome, and you certainly nailed the comic book feeling.

I agree on Mordalles, I'd love to see that crazy design developed further.

loominous

Just a reminder that my pic isn't done yet. That was just my first colouring attempt, and refinement is still due (need to add toys n clean stuff up).

I'm a bit puzzled by this house design dealy. My house may be a bit quirky but exactly so what? Even if we assume that it doesn't adhere to realism - which I wouldn't agree with - then why is this even an issue? The script doesn't call for realism, I never spoke of realism, so why exactly are we talking realism? It may very well have been designed by elves for all we know (though I see no reason why one would assume so), but why is this even a topic?

Having to justify a quirky design just seems so alien in this context.

Quote from: Neil Dnuma on Fri 15/08/2008 01:35:34
I'm also a little puzzled by the very bright light in the horizon, while the lightning clearly is coming from the left.

Yea, that's one of many cheats. Just thought having that horizon bright looked better. It may appear that I go for realism, but I really just use realistic elements to get the look I want.


Snarky:

I think the houses share similar components, but saying that they "look very much alike" is quite a stretch. We did all go for porchless designs, and I would've guessed that we'd have seen more of more villa like buildings, but to me all of the houses turned out quite unique. If you'd put them next to eachother, I'm sure the differences would be very clear.

It could be more about a certain time period, which they seem to share. Think the script might've implicitly made people go for this kind of older design, just by mentioning stuff like the old swings squeeking. Still, it would've been more interesting if people, including myself, would've fought the stereotype that the script conjured up.

On the other hand I'm glad that we they did turn out quite similar, as it allows us to dig deeper into certain designs and compositions. You start to sort of distill the essence of the subjects at hand, which was part of the aim with the activity.

Which is probably not very exciting for the observer looking for contrasting images, but an advantage for the participants.
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loominous

Oh, and just a note to any observers:

One thing that one probably misses when not partaking, is that the script includes quite a few problems, which I think to a large extent is the cause of the similarity in composition and placement of objects in the entries that followed the script.

These problems were deliberately included to pose as challenges to the participants.

The deliberate problems that were included were:


I) The sign. The sign was supposed to be close to a bridge, yet still readable. This narrowed the composition down to ones where the bridge was pretty close to the viewer, and going away from us, unless some clever alternate solution was used. Most went with a 3/4 angle where we'd be facing the sign, while zyndikate went with more of a profile view. Neil solved this by having a large sign, which allowed him to have it further away from the viewer.

II) The second floor/interactivity. Being able to see the second story, along with the rest, made it necessary to include some distance to the house, while still having it close enough to show the girl playing in the window, and allow the house to be interacted with. A low/upwards angle would be another solution, but those tend to mess up the perspective on characters, so that brings complications.

III) The farm/windmill. These made it necessary to reserve space for two distant objects with different depths that needed to be recognizable.

IV) The melancholic mood/flower in a swamp. This proved to be quite a tough one, even though it seems fairly straight forward. It's a careful balance act between going sad/scary and indifferent/happy.


These may not seem as much of problems when you look at them like this, but they sure do tend to mess up things once you get started.

It would've been fun to see some more creative solutions to these problems - I guess zyndikate's was the closest to something different - but I couldn't come up with any myself, so I know it wasn't easy.
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Misj'

Quote from: loominous on Fri 15/08/2008 10:47:59I'm a bit puzzled by this house design dealy. My house may be a bit quirky but exactly so what? Even if we assume that it doesn't adhere to realism - which I wouldn't agree with - then why is this even an issue? The script doesn't call for realism, I never spoke of realism, so why exactly are we talking realism? It may very well have been designed by elves for all we know (though I see no reason why one would assume so), but why is this even a topic?

Having to justify a quirky design just seems so alien in this context.
It's not that you have to justify it (although it would be interesting to hear what kind of story you had in mind when you you chose this particular design, but that's another story). I didn't say it was a bad design, or a design that didn't fit within the boundaries of the script. I also don't mind the fairytale-feel, far from it. And it was never my intention to tell you to 'sit down, and redesign the house'. I just said that from my point of view it's "a little over the top, but it does have character, atmosphere, and does work." So if I were to look at it from a perspective of the art-director on this fictional project, I would probably go for a more classic architecture.

I should also add, that in the fictional back story and world that I created so I had something to work with while drawing my piece, this design wouldn't fit the orphanage and it's inhabitants, it would however fit almost perfectly to another character in the (very rough) story/world: a Negro Leprechaun called the Archiver; a mythical (and old) creature who keeps track of each and everyone. In my mind his cottage can be really 'magical' in design, while the orphanage would be more bland. It's just a matter of story...

Quote from: loominousJust a reminder that my pic isn't done yet. That was just my first colouring attempt, and refinement is still due (need to add toys n clean stuff up).
I was kinda hoping no one had finished yet (because if you all had, it would be me who was holding up this workshop, and that'd be embarrassing). So it were just some 'in between' remarks.

Quote from: Neil Dnuma on Fri 15/08/2008 01:35:34I was a little bothered by the repeated "Y" shapes at the top of the tree in the foreground.
Yeah...I should have made the design of that tree a little more interesting. Too much repetition. I'll look into it.

Quote from: Neil DnumaI think maybe the lighting contrast between the right and left hand side is pushed enough by now, it's appearing like different times of the day. It underlines the "flower in a swamp" metaphor, but at the cost of almost becoming distracting. I think maybe some clouds to the left would help this point through in a more realistic way
I've been playing around with clouds yesterday, but didn't get it right yet, so I kept it of the post. The green should probably be a little less dominant. The centre of the image should already be bright I think. That way the green/dark is more associated with the forest, and less with the movement of the sun. Or at least...I hope it will.

Thanks for the remarks.

cat

Is this going to end some day? I really miss the old background blitz  :'(

BOYD1981

yeh i mean ffs, just end it already or somebody else start up another one.
background blitz doesn't belong to any one person, it's a community activity and it just seems like loominous has taken it over.

Limey Lizard, Waste Wizard!
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Snarky

That's not fair, Boyd!

Loominous tried something new with this round, in order to improve on some things that the blitz is not always very good at. I think the experiment was really interesting, and the results (in terms of demonstrating the creation process) have been valuable.

Obviously, it was never intended to go on for this long (check out the original deadlines). That it has is mostly due to the participants, and other distractions (like the forums going down, Mittens, etc.). Anyway, it's probably time to bring it to a close. If this process is to be used in the future, I think we either should stick more strictly to the deadlines, or maybe make it a separate activity in parallel with the Background Blitz.

Good show, loominous!

Misj'

Quote from: BOYD1981 on Sun 31/08/2008 19:14:05
background blitz doesn't belong to any one person, it's a community activity and it just seems like loominous has taken it over.
And there I was, thinking that I (and Zyndikate, Neil, and Exsecratus) belonged to the community too  :'( Just because few people joined (which is the fault of those not joining, not Loominous') doens't mean they weren't allowed (I'm pretty sure all of you got the invitation ;) )

Quote from: Snarky on Sun 31/08/2008 19:56:18That it has is mostly due to the participants
I agree that the participants...well...I for one am to blame that it takes so long. I've joined the blitz rather late, had to go to Ireland and the comming week I have to be in Aachen (Germany).

QuoteAnyway, it's probably time to bring it to a close.
True.

QuoteIf this process is to be used in the future, ..., or maybe make it a separate activity in parallel with the Background Blitz.
I think that would be best, because the workshop is far more valuable than the normal Blitz (well to me at least). But the high overturn-rate of the conventional Blitz is lost, and I can understand why that's a burden to some people. Anyway, I'm partial to the workshop; but should I win I wouldn't mind starting two Blitz-editions (or maybe there should be two winners...that's up to Loominous).

Minor update...


In the final game the fog can not be part of the real background and will be challenging to make. But in order to show how I intend it, I've added it here. Next five days I won't be able to work on the background, and should Loominous finish the blitz then this is my entry.

Ps. Loominous...I think the workshop was a success in the end.

Dualnames

Will you guys just finish this? This year preferably. This has been going on since BLOODY MAY!!!! FFS?! I mean are the moderators sleeping? This is taking four months. You could finish a game in that time.

Francisco finished BJ while you were drawing btw.
Worked on Strangeland, Primordia, Hob's Barrow, The Cat Lady, Mage's Initiation, Until I Have You, Downfall, Hunie Pop, and every game in the Wadjet Eye Games catalogue (porting)

loominous

I think one of the reasons for the low turnout was that the whole format might've given the impression that participating required a great deal of effort, and also know-how. And in a sense it's true that if you've never used references to get to know certain construction/ornamental techniques, and have never played around with composition sketches, it takes a bit of time and getting used to. But the good thing is that it really only takes as much time as you're willing to put in.

As Snarky said, the initial time frame was that of an ordinary blitz, and I actually think it's a plausible schedule, now that people - myself included - are familiar with the concept. There were many late starters, and the introductory posts needed to be written (which always clashed with other stuff I had to do), which dragged it out.

A shorter execution would also help keep the interest alive, as you start to get tired of the same scene quite soon. Plus it might make it seem like like less of a deal to participate -- I got the feeling that people were slightly intimidated by the format.

The reason why zyndikate and I went with the special edition format instead of a separate activity was partly because it wouldn't divide up the interest/efforts of the background folks in the community, but also to make it part of a regular activity, and not something special that one would have to take the initiative to start up (few people are comfortable taking initiatives like that). But it would be interesting to see how it might turn out as a separate activity. I think either way would work better now that people have an idea how it can be done.

Quote from: BOYD1981 on Sun 31/08/2008 19:14:05
yeh i mean ffs, just end it already or somebody else start up another one.
background blitz doesn't belong to any one person, it's a community activity and it just seems like loominous has taken it over.

Considering that it was over a year ago since I last hosted a blitz, I'm not sure where you're coming from.

Quote from: Misj' on Sun 31/08/2008 20:18:26
Ps. Loominous...I think the workshop was a success in the end.

Yea, I was expecting quite a low turnout for the initial run, so I think it turned out pretty well. Think we managed to put the spotlight on some aspects that are often neglected, but are considered extremely important by most artists, which made it a success regardless of the low entry amount.

-

As we wrap it up, any comments or ideas about how the format can be improved are highly welcome. Even from disgruntled observers.
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MashPotato

Just wanted to say I enjoyed watching all the entries come together--terrific work, everyone!  I wasn't able to take part this time (first there was a vacation... then forgetting... then laziness/slight intimidation ;)), but if a similar workshop is held sometime in the future I would try to participate :)

Snarky

Quote from: loominous on Sun 31/08/2008 21:15:26
I think one of the reasons for the low turnout was that the whole format might've given the impression that participating required a great deal of effort, and also know-how. And in a sense it's true that if you've never used references to get to know certain construction/ornamental techniques, and have never played around with composition sketches, it takes a bit of time and getting used to. But the good thing is that it really only takes as much time as you're willing to put in.

I think another reason is that having a schedule for the various steps forced participants to work much more in sync. In the regular blitz, you usually have one or two entries that get posted first, and then those inspire others to whip up a background. The structure this time didn't really encourage people to join late, and made it much more of an ongoing commitment.

Dualnames

Quote from: Snarky on Sun 31/08/2008 23:25:52
Quote from: loominous on Sun 31/08/2008 21:15:26
I think one of the reasons for the low turnout was that the whole format might've given the impression that participating required a great deal of effort, and also know-how. And in a sense it's true that if you've never used references to get to know certain construction/ornamental techniques, and have never played around with composition sketches, it takes a bit of time and getting used to. But the good thing is that it really only takes as much time as you're willing to put in.

I think another reason is that having a schedule for the various steps forced participants to work much more in sync. In the regular blitz, you usually have one or two entries that get posted first, and then those inspire others to whip up a background. The structure this time didn't really encourage people to join late, and made it much more of an ongoing commitment.

That translates into.. FOUR FRIGGIN MONTHS... Ben Jordan 7 was created and released in that time..With voice pack..
Worked on Strangeland, Primordia, Hob's Barrow, The Cat Lady, Mage's Initiation, Until I Have You, Downfall, Hunie Pop, and every game in the Wadjet Eye Games catalogue (porting)

loominous

Quote from: Dualnames on Mon 01/09/2008 00:03:10
Ben Jordan 7 was created and released in that time..With voice pack..

As you seem keen on repeating this fact, it would be nice if you would explain what if anything it has to do with this activity.
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Dualnames

Ok, you're polite enough, and I really don;t want to sound harsh on you despite I feel that way about this whole blitz idea. Ok, first I really have nothing with you as a host and/or any of the partecipants. However, background blitz is about creating backgrounds and since all competitions take in a few days or a week or two, this one doesn't. It has taken four months. I mean even if you drew a whole disney movie it would take you less than a background. It's not a reasonable amount for a picture. I'm actually wondering why none of the moderators hasn;t come in here to post in. Or even encourage you to wrap this up. I actually would have partecipated if it wasn't for that I can't have free time for 4 months. Or schedule. So in case I'd entered and then got busy I would have sort of wasted a lot of time. Many people enjoy blitzes and I really think they should last one week minimum instead of less in some occasions, but nevertheless this blitz is sort of preposterous, for someone that can't draw Disney style or would love to do some pixel art it;s even more frustrating that he's going to have to wait a year.(voting takes a long time). I really do admire your style and drawing and do respect your ideas for a blitz. Anyway, I don;t know what to achieve with my response here, probably it's going to go by unnoticed. So that's what I wanted to say. All and all.
Worked on Strangeland, Primordia, Hob's Barrow, The Cat Lady, Mage's Initiation, Until I Have You, Downfall, Hunie Pop, and every game in the Wadjet Eye Games catalogue (porting)

Snarky

Just to correct you on the facts, the Background Blitz is usually announced for about a two-week duration, and is frequently extended by another week or two. Then there's a few days of voting on top of that. I don't remember any time when the competition phase lasted less than a week.

loominous

Dualnames:

You seem to have a peculiar idea of what's been going on here. I think I can safely say that noone has spent three and a half months on their entry -- I would estimate that the average participant has spent perhaps 12 hours in total. The activity has lasted three and a half months.

And before someone jumps in and shouts: "That's way too much!!1", let me repeat that the planned duration was set on two and a half weeks, which is a bit less than the average blitz.

Some of the reasons explaining why it's dragged out have already been mentioned in previous posts.

-

The planned and clearly advertised duration also makes your stated reason for not participating peculiar:  that you didn't have four months of free time to spend. This unless you have some gift of foresight.

-

I also have to bring up two other points, as they're something of pet peeves of mine:

Quotebut nevertheless this blitz is sort of preposterous, for someone that can't draw Disney style or would love to do some pixel art it

First off, working on your drawing in stages is something that anyone benefits from, from the total beginner to the accomplished artist. One of the main aims with this activity has been to get this idea across. As with building a house, the need for pre-planning actually increases if you're a beginner, as the more experienced you get, the more you can pre-visualize, and estimate accurately.

Secondly, pixel art is just another medium. The same art theories and approaches apply to it as with other media such as oil painting, knitting, sculpturing etc. As with any of these, you can start straight away by pixeling away without any forethought. Or you plan your composition and values/colours. The choice is based on your preference and goal. But it's just another medium - it does not have any artistic shortcuts.
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cat

I didn't want to start a fight here, that was really not my intention. The results of this blitz were very interesting, but the updates came more and more rarely and thus it became quite boring.
I don't want to stop your project, but it would be nice to start a new fresh background blitz that allows spontaneous participation for people that do not have that amount of time.

I think noone will mind if we have to activities, the background blitz and the workshop blitz  ;)

Andail

This has been a very educational activity, and I can certainly envision a regular workshop-thing going on parallel to the ordinary background blitz.

If you take your time and look through the progress displayed in this thread you can really learn something from each and every picture, and furthermore the results are extremely good.

Dualnames, you don't need to yell at people or pretend you own the place.

However, to speed up things and accommodate for the more casual forumites, let's wrap this up and fire up new activities. I suggest we install one ordinary background blitz, and let Loominous start a new background workshop whenever he feels like it.

I'll give you a day to display your results and then we'll consider this round over.

loominous

Cat:

Quote from: cat on Mon 01/09/2008 12:53:50
I didn't want to start a fight here, that was really not my intention. The results of this blitz were very interesting, but the updates came more and more rarely and thus it became quite boring.

Yea, I think everyone, including the participants, started getting bored with the scene quite soon, and the low participance in the later stages dragged down the momentum and interest, so I totally get where you're coming from.

Andail:

Fair enough.

I think it's preferable to keep it as an edition, which anyone can host whenever they're hosting the blitz, but with a three/four week deadline. I think it's feasible now that the format has taken shape. It would probably only be zyndikate, misj or I who'd host it anyway. But for all I know, having it as a separate longer activity might work better, so it could be worth a shot.

Just that this activity wasn't even suggested by me, and was orchestrated and carried out both zyndikate and me, so making it all about me and my initiative seems limiting and also unfair to zyndikate.

When an activity has been going on this long, you start to get a bit sluggish, as one day or two more seems like a drop in the bucket, which is why I haven't wrapped it up more rapidly, but I guess that could've helped quell some of the annoyance displayed. Live and learn.

Edit: Whoops, confused two names.
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