Author Topic: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide!  (Read 23087 times)

Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #60 on: 26 Oct 2008, 14:27 »
Religious or atheist, it doesn't matter. What matters is whether they are secularists, and the founding fathers and many other great presidents were exactly that...
 

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #61 on: 26 Oct 2008, 16:07 »
If you think Obama will - at the end of the day - benefit from being black I don't think you know your country. I think there's an enormous amount of people who claim they will vote Obama just to be politically correct and then vote Mccain since they still have a streak of prejudice in them.
There's so much latent racism we will never know about.

I know my country pretty well (I like to think)! I'm well aware of the latent racism (on all sides). Down here (in South Florida) we're calling it the 'Bubba Effect' (not sure what it's called elsewhere).  It's the white-boy-in-the-country who talks up voting for Obama to avoid being called racist, but when he's in the privacy behind the curtain his vote goes to McCain.  But again, this is a problem to me because they're (most likely) not voting for McCain because they want him as president but because they don't want Obama in office.  I refuse to vote for somebody I don't want as president just because I want the other guy less.  To me that's worse than voting for neither. (I believe this is what ProgZ feels too if I'm understanding him correctly).

This little debate we're having in this thread, ironically, symbolizes to me the very thing I find wrong with the political system in the U.S.  Each side is so convinced they're right (and that the other side is 'less intelligent' or not 'in the know' just because their view is in stark opposition) that it will just perpetually go back and forth with neither side winning or losing (though each side will think they're 'winning').  It's the nature of politics I suppose.

I'm not jabbin' at anybody in particular but I feel what I feel and I believe in it.  I'm open to new ideas and I understand other's points of views but just because you believe strongly in them doesn't make my ideas "wrong".  Just as I don't think your ideas are "wrong" ... we're just in opposition.  A little debate is nice from time to time ... but this will just go on and on and on and on ...

Nuthin' but love ... even to the opposition.

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #62 on: 26 Oct 2008, 21:48 »
I'd say being black is as good reason as any. In a situation when this is a reason at all.
There are people who vote for his person and politics overall. Very little amount of people.

And then there's loads of people who vote for a single thing. A promise here or there, because he's black, because he has likeable voice, because some housewife finds him sexy, because he studied law, because this and that and that too. To a such list, skin color can be easily added.

Just like Obama will have probably votes for being black...
...McCain gets some for NOT being black.

And vice versa.
All this talk makes me feel like people really believe that being black is some kind of unfair advantage of his.
In democracy, people choose whoever they like. Even if it's only skin color...
« Last Edit: 26 Oct 2008, 21:54 by InCreator »

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #63 on: 26 Oct 2008, 23:55 »
No, you're absolutely right, Darth.  I vehemently stand against this lesser of two evils bullshit that's crept into mainstream American thought.  It makes me want to hurl buses full of politicians into the sun, and it's precisely the reason why we keep electing poor candidates instead of great ones.  People say 'but there isn't anyone good running this year!' without even looking at what the other parties (no, not the Republicrats) have on offer.  Ron Paul ran Libertarian against Bush in 2000 and now people are burying him with questions about how to save the economy.  The same goes with this year with his run as a Republican; he was still marginalized (and outright banned from some of the debates!) until people were coerced into thinking he had no chance at all, even though straw polls across the entire nation favored his message of simple friendship with nations, an end to empire building, and a restructuring of the economy over any of the other candidates.  This kind of shit should not go down in the country of our forefathers, and yet the old curmudgeons and the fatalists in this country continue to keep status quo.  I am confident that this is coming to an end and that we'll see a truly competent President in office with our best intrests in mind, it's just a question of how much more shit the 'lesser of two evils' are going to be willing to eat before they change their tune. 

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #64 on: 27 Oct 2008, 02:31 »
Quote
It's the white-boy-in-the-country who talks up voting for Obama to avoid being called racist, but when he's in the privacy behind the curtain his vote goes to McCain.  But again, this is a problem to me because they're (most likely) not voting for McCain because they want him as president but because they don't want Obama in office.
I disagree with this analysis a bit.  What they are calling the "Bradley Effect", where people tell pollsters they are going to vote for the black candidate and then do otherwise on election day, in the past has happened exclusively in large cities and not in rural areas.   I think liberal leaning type folks are much more susceptible to being pressured into being politically correct than others.  The typical  "white-boy-in-the-country" doesn't give a shit about being politically correct and is more likely to straight-up say what he thinks.   

If it was just the "white-boy-in-the-country" responsible for this effect no body would be talking about it because by and large those folks don't vote for liberal democrats.   The reason it's being brought by the new media and the Obama folks is, IMHO, that they fear defection from their base.  Hillary supporters are, from what I understand, not very happy with the results of the nominating process and feel like they have been screwed.  It's possible some (or many) of them may be saying that they are voting Obama but won't do so.

My wife and I volunteer as civil rights testers for a non-profit fair housing organization.  The first thing they tell you in orientation is that you won't know if someone if discriminating against you or not.  They will be very polite and smile all the while screwing you royally.   My wife busted a number of companies as she later found out to her surprise as they were very nice and polite with her.   

It's much easier to deal with someone who will tell you straight up "I don't like you because you are _____." than it is to deal with people who will simle and be polite and then stab you in the back.   That's the kind of thing that sucks out your soul!  My wife will tell you from her experience that people who identify as liberals and/or democrats are by far the worst offenders.

Consider the possibility that political correctness was invented by people who are in their heart of hearts racists.  In their own lives they are careful to not say anything that would offend anyone lest their true nature be revealed.  That, however, dose not prevent them from acting out their feelings where no one will find out what they have done  or their motivation.  These people are careful to shield themselves behind plausible denyability or behind incompetent bureaucracies where they are not held accountable.   It would be an easy and natural step,  for people of this ilk to extend their personal rules of conduct to people around them.  Just a thought...

Anyway sorry for getting side tracked  :=

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #66 on: 27 Oct 2008, 16:24 »
There's been so much misinformation, ignorance and straight up stupidity in the thread that it could make you cry. So I'll try not to get involved in any of the (stupid, stupid) discussions, and just point out some of the things that have been said that are wrong.

But did not the democrats always lead pre-elections and then lose? At least the last 2 times.

No. In 2000, Bush had a clear lead on Gore going into the election. Gore actually did much better in the election itself (winning the popular vote and coming within a few hundred votes in a single state of winning the election) than he did in the pre-election polling. In 2004, Bush also had a clear lead on Kerry since the beginning of September.

McCain will be President.  The Electoral College puts who they want in office and I highly doubt they want Obama in there.  They want a rich white-dude in office.

Dude, the electoral college is not some powerful conspiracy that secretly rules the US; it's just a bunch of party hacks selected because they WILL vote for their party's candidate. If the Democrats get to appoint a majority of electors, which is based on the popular vote in each state, they will certainly name Obama president.

It's actually not ridiculous.  I'd wager there are quite a few ("some" if it makes us all feel better) women voting for McCain because of Palin being a woman.  Do you truly believe that there are no women doing this?  Or no black people voting for Obama because he's black (even though my link shows this is the case)?

Actually, polls show that Palin has more support among men than among women. As for the rest of it... just  ::)  >:(  :'(

I'll  :-X

But he has the  smile. I don't know if it's me or some coincidence, but all US presidents I've seen have the smile. There's a voting, and the man with the smile wins. Bill Clinton? A man with potato nose and rat eyes. But smile, it made him the president. Obama does not possess the smile.  :(

Jesus Christ! Have you seen that grimace McCain makes to indicate satisfaction? It gives grown men nightmares.

Don't get me wrong, as I commented in the thread about Mods' passion with UFOs, I'd love to be proven wrong in this situation.  I'd love to see a generally honest and trustworthy man (or woman) sittin' in the Oval Office. (like Jed Bartlett)  However, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

OK, just a little bit of opinion/discussion here at the end: Jed Bartlett would not be a great, or even good president in reality. In his policies he was wildly inconsistent, often ignoring strong, rational arguments and listening instead to sentimental appeals. He seemed to govern based on whims and whatever the last person he spoke to told him. As a result, many of his ideas were purely populistic and potentially disastrous.

Far from being an honest and trustworthy man, he got himself elected under false pretenses, hiding a potentially debilitating disease, and choosing his vice-president based (as far as I can tell) solely on political expediency, ignoring the fact that they shared little in their views and priorities. (Thus creating the risk of the nation taking an unexpected sharp turn in defiance of what voters wanted if he were to become incapacitated.)

No, I'd much rather have Obama, or even McCain. For all the desperate negative campaigning of the last few weeks, and the disqualifying pick of Palin as his running mate, McCain has mostly conducted an admirably honorable campaign. Moreso than Hillary Clinton did, I'd argue. When the dust settles, I think people will come to respect that.

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #67 on: 27 Oct 2008, 16:49 »
Hi guys,

Just wanted to interrupt all the political analysis to post a link to this site:

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/

It's one of the best sites I've seen this year.

Anyway, long story short: The site says Obama's going to win and McCain is royally fucked.

Yeah, 538 is good, although the fact that it's run by partisan Democrats, and some of the statistical methods it uses to "correct" various polls, makes me suspect it's more optimistic for Obama than the election results will actually be. Two other good sites for analyzing polls, trends etc. are RealClearPolitics and Pollster. RCP in particular has become the benchmark in this election.

Both of these sites project an overwhelming victory for Obama, too. A win for McCain is not outside the realm of possibility (if he picks up a few points in the last week, and likely-voter models are off, and turnout is lower than expected among Obamaites, and he gets lucky in a few swing states, then... he'll still need a longshot, upset victory somewhere like Iowa or Pennsylvania), but it's definitely starting to move outside the zone of plausibility.

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #68 on: 27 Oct 2008, 17:03 »
At least some people have the guts not to be politically correct!


Not only is that video brilliant, but the comments are mostly amusing too.

(unless you're an American citizen, in which case I would assume they are very scary.)

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #69 on: 27 Oct 2008, 17:12 »
Dude, the electoral college is not some powerful conspiracy that secretly rules the US; it's just a bunch of party hacks selected because they WILL vote for their party's candidate. If the Democrats get to appoint a majority of electors, which is based on the popular vote in each state, they will certainly name Obama president.

I didn't say it was 'some powerful conspiracy'.  It is, however, an antiquated and totally unnecessary institution.  It served a good purpose 100 years ago, but it is no longer needed (in my opinion).  Now it's just a convenient system of control because the government (perhaps smartly) doesn't trust the American people to actually elect the American President.

Case in point; Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 but was still put in office.  More votes 'by the people' were for Gore, yet we got shnocker'd with Bush for 8 years.  If this is how it's gonna be they need to change it from, "by the people" to, "by [a very small group of] the people"

I'm aware of the term 'representative democracy'

I'm aware that Bush was only the third president in history to be elected against the popular vote.  However, if it happens even once, that proves (to me) the point.

Granted I'm no expert on the subject.  But there is ZERO logic (in my way of thinking) to putting so much significance on making people vote (while providing duds as candidates), then tallying votes from all those that did vote and then basing the election off of something else.

Actually, polls show that Palin has more support among men than among women.

I'm sure the polls are correct (because they're polls after all).  However, that's not the point I was trying to make so I'm not sure what you mean by pointing to the polls.  I was simply pointing out that there will be some women inclined to vote for McCain because Palin is a woman.  I continue to marvel why this issue (and the other 'black/Obama' issue) is so difficult to understand??

OK, just a little bit of opinion/discussion here at the end: Jed Bartlett would not be a great, or even good president in reality.

Dude seriously?? If you really thought I was serious about that I would point you to this...

There's been so much misinformation, ignorance and straight up stupidity in the thread that it could make you cry.

... and TOTALLY agree with you :P

Not being confrontational ... but you calling any of us partaking in this thread "stupid", "wrong", and/or "ignorant" goes back to the point I made in my post:

This little debate we're having in this thread, ironically, symbolizes to me the very thing I find wrong with the political system in the U.S.  Each side is so convinced they're right (and that the other side is 'less intelligent' or not 'in the know' just because their view is in stark opposition) that it will just perpetually go back and forth with neither side winning or losing (though each side will think they're 'winning').  It's the nature of politics I suppose.

 ... but this will just go on and on and on and on ...

More of the same I suppose.

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #70 on: 27 Oct 2008, 17:26 »
I don't think there's much stupidity in this thread, though possibly some ignorance (and by ignorance I mean a general lack of complete awareness of what's going on) from people here and there who rely purely on what they see on television or read in the newspaper.  This is not a crime, nor is it an attack on anyone's character.  To understand certain key issues facing the nation and to understand which candidate would best resolve these issues you really, really must go back, on your own, through their voting record and pay careful notice to how they have performed through the years rather than listening to any of their rhetoric.  Only by seeing their votes and bills they have championed do you really get a sense of where they stand with any clarity.  Everything else is just whitewash and political posturing, in my opinion. 

If you favor a candidate, take a day to look through their voting record on issues you feel are the most important ones facing your nation and then decide if they represent your beliefs closely enough or not.  You will often be surprised by how their record does not quite mesh with what they say in rallies, and it's their actions and not their words that should move you.

That's all I'm suggesting.

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #71 on: 27 Oct 2008, 18:54 »
Dude, the electoral college is not some powerful conspiracy that secretly rules the US; it's just a bunch of party hacks selected because they WILL vote for their party's candidate. If the Democrats get to appoint a majority of electors, which is based on the popular vote in each state, they will certainly name Obama president.

I didn't say it was 'some powerful conspiracy'.  It is, however, an antiquated and totally unnecessary institution.  It served a good purpose 100 years ago, but it is no longer needed (in my opinion).  Now it's just a convenient system of control because the government (perhaps smartly) doesn't trust the American people to actually elect the American President.

Case in point; Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 but was still put in office.  More votes 'by the people' were for Gore, yet we got shnocker'd with Bush for 8 years.  If this is how it's gonna be they need to change it from, "by the people" to, "by [a very small group of] the people"

I'm aware of the term 'representative democracy'

I'm aware that Bush was only the third president in history to be elected against the popular vote.  However, if it happens even once, that proves (to me) the point.

Granted I'm no expert on the subject.  But there is ZERO logic (in my way of thinking) to putting so much significance on making people vote (while providing duds as candidates), then tallying votes from all those that did vote and then basing the election off of something else.

Maybe so. That's the system you have, though, and even with that small complication it does allow the American people to elect their head of state. As for the popular vote, it's been proven that there is no voting system that is completely fair and always comes to the decision favored by most people. So from that point of view, a single round, single-vote popular ballot is just as arbitrary as any other system.

Anyway, I was responding to your claim that the Electoral College would pick McCain for President regardless of the election result. That's nonsense.

Quote
Actually, polls show that Palin has more support among men than among women.

I'm sure the polls are correct (because they're polls after all).  However, that's not the point I was trying to make so I'm not sure what you mean by pointing to the polls.  I was simply pointing out that there will be some women inclined to vote for McCain because Palin is a woman.  I continue to marvel why this issue (and the other 'black/Obama' issue) is so difficult to understand??

The point itself is not difficult to understand. Why you keep raising it, and why it's relevant to--well, anything--is. Yes, interest groups and identity politics play a part in candidate preference. Race and gender are only two of those categories, though. Religion (Romney, a Mormon, won the Utah primaries overwhelmingly, but was viewed with suspicion elsewhere), class/education, age, regional identity etc. are all factors that are going to have significant effect as well.

So yes, people are more likely to vote for candidates that they identify with, whom they see as representing the ideals they value, and whom they like. So?

Quote
OK, just a little bit of opinion/discussion here at the end: Jed Bartlett would not be a great, or even good president in reality.

Dude seriously?? If you really thought I was serious about that I would point you to this...

For a lot of people, Jed Bartlet was their ideal fantasy president. There were even campaign buttons that were pretty popular in, IIRC, 2000. If you were joking, good for you, but I don't think it was foolish of me to take you seriously.

Quote
Not being confrontational ... but you calling any of us partaking in this thread "stupid", "wrong", and/or "ignorant" goes back to the point I made in my post:

This little debate we're having in this thread, ironically, symbolizes to me the very thing I find wrong with the political system in the U.S.  Each side is so convinced they're right (and that the other side is 'less intelligent' or not 'in the know' just because their view is in stark opposition) that it will just perpetually go back and forth with neither side winning or losing (though each side will think they're 'winning').  It's the nature of politics I suppose.

 ... but this will just go on and on and on and on ...

More of the same I suppose.

I have a lot of respect for both sides, and though I personally favor the Democrats on most issues, I don't deny that there is merit to a lot of Republican arguments. There are also several areas of policy where I think both major parties are off-base. (Though I have yet to hear of any fringe candidates that are any better.) I also think that if your views genuinely are far outside of the mainstream, like for example ProgZ's seem to be, there's nothing wrong with rejecting both candidates. Given an electoral system based on first-past-the-post, winner-takes-all, rather than proportional representation, you're probably stuck with a two-party system forever, but consensus can be shifted over time.

There hasn't been any real policy debate in this thread, so my accusation of ignorance and stupidity obviously has nothing to do with party preference. I'll refrain from naming specific posters who have lowered the level of factuality and reason in the thread; I think the record speaks for itself.

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #72 on: 27 Oct 2008, 19:32 »
Maybe so. That's the system you have, though, and even with that small complication it does allow the American people to elect their head of state. As for the popular vote, it's been proven that there is no voting system that is completely fair and always comes to the decision favored by most people. So from that point of view, a single round, single-vote popular ballot is just as arbitrary as any other system.

While some people might accept something simply because it's 'what they have' I am not among that group.  That's one of the things I actually like about the system.  I don't have to go along with it because it's all there is.  If some people want to take what they're offered because there's nothing else (even if they disagree with it) that's their mistake.  I won't join that herd of sheep.

Anyway, I was responding to your claim that the Electoral College would pick McCain for President regardless of the election result. That's nonsense.

I do not think that's nonsense but, as I already stated, it's a difference of opinion that will just go on and on.  It's your choice to have faith in the electoral college.  I wasn't trying to persuade your (or anybody's) opinion, I was just expressing mine.

The point itself is not difficult to understand. Why you keep raising it, and why it's relevant to--well, anything--is.

I'm actually not the one that keeps bringing it back up.

It was relevant to my original point.  All the times it's been brought back up (out of some odd inability to grasp the concept) were, I agree, rather irrelevant.

For a lot of people, Jed Bartlet was their ideal fantasy president. There were even campaign buttons that were pretty popular in, IIRC, 2000. If you were joking, good for you, but I don't think it was foolish of me to take you seriously.

Fair enough.

I'll refrain from naming specific posters who have lowered the level of factuality and reason in the thread; I think the record speaks for itself.

I would wager that were you to name those posters you'd find that they feel your opinions and statements fall into the very category you lumped them into.  This is just a hunch of course :)

Politics is politics.

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #73 on: 27 Oct 2008, 22:08 »
While some people might accept something simply because it's 'what they have' I am not among that group.  That's one of the things I actually like about the system.  I don't have to go along with it because it's all there is.  If some people want to take what they're offered because there's nothing else (even if they disagree with it) that's their mistake.  I won't join that herd of sheep.

Ah! Lamenting the tenor of political discourse in one post, then calling those who disagree with you "sheep" who "accept something simply because it's what they have" the next. I love the smell of cognitive dissonance in the morning! Smells like... hypocrisy.

You know, I have no problem with efforts to change the presidential electoral system to a direct popular vote. Good luck to you! Meanwhile, this is the system by which the president is elected for now. It may not be perfect, but it doesn't invalidate the whole concept of a general election either, as you implied. ("If this is how it's gonna be they need to change it from, 'by the people' to, 'by [a very small group of] the people'")

Quote
Anyway, I was responding to your claim that the Electoral College would pick McCain for President regardless of the election result. That's nonsense.

I do not think that's nonsense but, as I already stated, it's a difference of opinion that will just go on and on.  It's your choice to have faith in the electoral college.  I wasn't trying to persuade your (or anybody's) opinion, I was just expressing mine.

It's not a matter of faith (I don't hold the presidential electors in particularly high regard), it's a matter of being realistic. Do you really think that a bunch of Democratic hacks, appointed by the Democratic party specifically because of their loyalty to their own side, after a long campaign of fighting for their guy, after the people's votes have been counted, after Obama has been declared the winner, and McCain has conceded, are suddenly going to decide not to vote for their own candidate, but instead for the candidate of the other party? Even though that's guaranteed to infuriate the party (and is a misdemeanor in 21 states), cause a constitutional crisis that would make Florida 2000 look like pretzelgate, instantly end their own careers, make them infamous throughout the country, and probably lead to massive rioting nationwide?

The popular vote is one week from tomorrow. As it looks now, Obama is going to win by every available measure. So we'll see if your prediction is correct. (Though we won't know until early January, when the Electoral College vote is counted.) Unless Obama in the intervening weeks goes on Meet the Press to talk about his enthusiasm for raping babies, what you propose is simply not going to happen.

Quote
I would wager that were you to name those posters you'd find that they feel your opinions and statements fall into the very category you lumped them into.  This is just a hunch of course :)

Somehow, that doesn't particularly bother me. I feel pretty confident in my knowledge and understanding of the American political system and current political realities.

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #74 on: 27 Oct 2008, 22:40 »
Hello everyone as you may know recent events have left me with no Internet access for a long time. I thought now would be the prime time to talk about politics I believe Obama will become the next president. The Americans do not pick their leaders like we do here. To them it is just another Television commercial, who looks the best, who has the nicest skin. Much like your Ronald Reagan I think he will be mostly the same to your Ronald McDonald. Capitalist pigs! >:(

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #75 on: 27 Oct 2008, 23:12 »
Ah! Lamenting the tenor of political discourse in one post, then calling those who disagree with you "sheep" who "accept something simply because it's what they have" the next. I love the smell of cognitive dissonance in the morning! Smells like... hypocrisy.

I didn't call those that disagree with me sheep.  I called those who go ahead with the current system because "that's the way it is" even though they disagree with it, sheep.  Quite a difference actually.

What smells like hypocrisy to you smells like Sheep to me.  Potato potatoe. 

It's not hypocritical just because you think it is.

Just differing points of view.

You know, I have no problem with efforts to change the presidential electoral system to a direct popular vote. Good luck to you! Meanwhile, this is the system by which the president is elected for now. It may not be perfect, but it doesn't invalidate the whole concept of a general election either, as you implied. ("If this is how it's gonna be they need to change it from, 'by the people' to, 'by [a very small group of] the people'")

Nor does it invalidate my belief in not going along with something simply because, "that's the way it is".

Differing points of view.

I feel pretty confident in my knowledge and understanding of the American political system and current political realities.

I'd wager those you're not mentioning feel the same way about their own knowledge and understanding.

Differing points of views.

This is same kind of debate we get when the topic of religion comes up.  Both sides are so convinced they're right (and that the other side are wrong, ignorant and stupid) that it continues in perpetuity.

I get a kick out of it.

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #76 on: 28 Oct 2008, 00:49 »
I didn't call those that disagree with me sheep.  I called those who go ahead with the current system because "that's the way it is" even though they disagree with it, sheep.  Quite a difference actually.

Wow, I guess I didn't realize how actively involved you've been in efforts to reform the Electoral system. My mistake.

Quote
I feel pretty confident in my knowledge and understanding of the American political system and current political realities.

I'd wager those you're not mentioning feel the same way about their own knowledge and understanding.

Differing points of views.

This is same kind of debate we get when the topic of religion comes up.  Both sides are so convinced they're right (and that the other side are wrong, ignorant and stupid) that it continues in perpetuity.

I get a kick out of it.

Let's not pretend that everyone is equally well-informed and reflected about politics and the political system. This is not a completely subjective topic where all opinions are equally valid; it's one where facts, understanding and reasoning matter.

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #77 on: 28 Oct 2008, 02:39 »
Wow, I guess I didn't realize how actively involved you've been in efforts to reform the Electoral system. My mistake.

I don't see how me thinking 'sheep' of people (for the reasons I've [re]stated several times) gets translated into me being actively involved in the [much needed] reformation of the electoral system.  Aside from that, I don't know how somebody on these boards (who has zero idea of my day-to-day) would have any idea what I'm involved with as far as my political views go (without me telling, which I haven't).

Let's not pretend that everyone is equally well-informed and reflected about politics and the political system. This is not a completely subjective topic where all opinions are equally valid; it's one where facts, understanding and reasoning matter.

I wasn't pretending anything. 

I was pointing out that the opposition to what you're saying would [likely] say the exact same thing(s) you're saying.  They will feel they are very well read and knowledgeable on the subject.  I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about.  I'm just saying that one point of view, no matter how well researched (or thought researched) doesn't mean it's better (more correct) than another person's.

But anyway ... We've gotten off the subject of the thread and I have no desire to keep repeating myself.

Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #78 on: 28 Oct 2008, 02:45 »
I'm an intelligent and conscientious non-voter...I consider it to be a totally masturbatory activity.  If people studied their own primate biological and sociological imperatives more, they'd understand that we just keep putting alpha males in power because that's what primate packs have always done.  We don't believe things can run without a big monkey at the top.  And voting for a President is such a backwards idea anyways...the people need to change first, consciously, and then the leaders will follow, not the other way around.

That being said, if McCain wins, I'm leaving the country.  Only in the US could we have the first race simultaneously between a woman and a black man for president, and a white man with a token chick partner could still win.

That being said, I would still like to do some heavy make-outs with Palin.

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Re: So it's gonna be Obama with a landslide?
« Reply #79 on: 28 Oct 2008, 04:24 »
Wow, I guess I didn't realize how actively involved you've been in efforts to reform the Electoral system. My mistake.

I don't see how me thinking 'sheep' of people (for the reasons I've [re]stated several times) gets translated into me being actively involved in the [much needed] reformation of the electoral system.  Aside from that, I don't know how somebody on these boards (who has zero idea of my day-to-day) would have any idea what I'm involved with as far as my political views go (without me telling, which I haven't).

Look buddy, I think you've kind of argued yourself into a corner here. If you're so opposed to the status quo and the current electoral system, but you don't do anything about it (and no, not voting is not "doing something") other than complain on the Internet, aren't you exactly the kind of sheep who "goes along with it because it's all there is"?

Let's leave it, shall we? My hope of not getting dragged into (stupid, stupid) discussions hasn't worked out so well so far.

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I wasn't pretending anything. 

I was pointing out that the opposition to what you're saying would [likely] say the exact same thing(s) you're saying.  They will feel they are very well read and knowledgeable on the subject.  I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about.  I'm just saying that one point of view, no matter how well researched (or thought researched) doesn't mean it's better (more correct) than another person's.

Well, grasp of facts can actually be objectively verified, and poor understanding of those facts typically soon reveals itself when things don't work out as predicted. There's been plenty of predictions made in this thread. We'll see.

I'm an intelligent and conscientious non-voter...I consider it to be a totally masturbatory activity.

That being said, if McCain wins, I'm leaving the country.

Hey, I know one way you can help to make sure that doesn't happen. VOTE!