The future of the AGS engine: STALEMATE!

Started by monkey0506, Sat 23/07/2011 11:10:40

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Radiant

While I have no objection to making AGS more optimized for commercial products, it strikes me as a conflict of interest to have somebody who creates commercial games be the manager of AGS. Certainly they should have a say in it, but I do not think they should be in charge.

So I would prefer Calin for this position. This is nothing personal against Dave, I just feel that since majority of the community do this as a hobby rather than for a living, the "management" should remain with somebody who does it as a hobby, just like what CJ did.

Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens

#61
Before he created commercial games he created freeware games and continues to champion AGS.  I find it somewhat upsetting that 'local boy makes good' would somehow disqualify rather than make him a good candidate for the job?  Dave has real management skills and this is what we're looking for in a project manager, so I don't think we should be so quick to discount him because he happens to sell his games.  By that token I too should be disqualified because I have participated in the development of games he has sold and could be accused of having ulterior motives.  So could the dozens of people involved with or working on commercial titles of their own.

That said, this is all academic until and unless he replies with an interest.  I've notified him about the thread and given him my reasons why I think he'd do a good job on keeping the development focused so let's wait and see if he's even seriously interested.

monkey0506

I mentioned something to him about this on Facebook, and he didn't seem to know what I was talking about.

Strange, I thought he had already been contacted about this proposal. :o

:=

Dave Gilbert

#63
Hi everyone!  Progz just directed me to this thread and wow.  I'm really honored that you'd consider us for this.  I have to admit, I'm not entirely sure what the position would entail, but here's where we currently stand on the "state of AGS" issue.

As most of you know, we make AGS games full time and also publish AGS games by other developers.  The core company (such as it is) is made up of me and my wife Janet.  If we had actual job titles, I'd be the creative director/designer, and Janet would be the chief technical officer.  This isn't a side job or hobby for us.  It's our livelihood.  Currently we've got seven AGS games for sale and are in the midst of developing three more.  So we have a definite stake in the future of the engine and all the games made with it.  

We probably have a different perspective on things than most folks here.  We approach things from a customer perspective (i.e., making things better/more fun for the player) than a developer perspective (i.e., making the games easier to make).  While we definitely would like to improve the engine/editor, usability for the players would be our main priority. There are a number of common technical complaints we get almost every day from our customers and affiliates, and we can only shrug and say "Sorry, it's an AGS thing."  

Janet has long expressed an interest in cracking open the source code and making changes herself after her current project is finished (which should be around May).  These changes would obviously be shared with the community.  If we could make that official, so much the better!  

So, I guess you can count us interested, but like I said, we need to know more of what you'd expect from us.  I'd also like to get Janet's input, as she has more experience with this kinda thing than I do.  She's not home right now, but I'll show her this thread as soon as she gets in.

I hate to leave you with a "strong maybe", but consider us intrigued!

-Dave

tzachs

Quote
I'm willing to take a fairly active role in the editor development since C# is where i cut my teeth so to speak. I'm confident that Tzachs would be willing to back me up with that and possibly lead the editor coding efforts.
Yes, I will definitely back Calin up with active development of the editor. The word "leading" is a scary word, and so I will not say a definite "yes" to that. I will help with the decision process, provide guidance if needed, and do whatever I can within the time and resources that I have.

As for project manager, if we have someone here with actual experience with managing an open source project (and dedication to improving AGS), then that's the guy we want.
If not, then any of the names mentioned here sounds good to me.
That includes Dave. I don't see any real issues with commercial game developers involved in the development of AGS. IMO, what's good for the commercial games is good for the free games.
And besides, this will not be a dictatorship. There will be a lot of people involved which will have a say, so there's really nothing to worry about (not to mention that with the nature of open source, you can't really force anyone to do anything. You can ask, and you can refuse to accept code changes if it's not going with the accpeted vision, but that's pretty much it).

monkey0506

tzachs has summed it up pretty nicely. We're discussing a "leader"/"manager" just to have someone to handle coordination primarily, and if it ever really came down to it then of course they could help make determinations on a particular feature/function/etc. We don't need someone barking down our throats telling us what to do, but if there's a major decision that we can't settle on our own, then we need someone who can step in.

If I had to vote for someone other than myself, no offense to Dave, but I would actually vote for Calin. Dave has a very busy schedule at times, and WEG is very much his priority as it's his lifestyle. Of course we all have our livelihood to look out for, and this is position would be unpaid, a hobbyist role, for any of us. Calin does seem to have good management skills, and a reasonably open schedule. He has a pretty good understanding of the ins and outs of AGS.

Of course, if I could I'd totally vote for myself. :=

Sslaxx

Some of us appear to be putting words in other peoples' mouths here.
Stuart "Sslaxx" Moore.

Wyz

Quote from: Sslaxx on Sun 15/01/2012 00:34:10
Some of us appear to be putting words in other peoples' mouths here.

Oooh noes! Someone noticed!  :=
Life is like an adventure without the pixel hunts.

monkey0506

Okay, that's it. As interim project manager of AGS 4, I demand that no one is allowed to directly comment on anything that anyone else said. And yes, that means that no one is allowed to comment on this comment. :D

Snarky

Quote from: Dave Gilbert on Sat 14/01/2012 21:45:43
We probably have a different perspective on things than most folks here.  We approach things from a customer perspective (i.e., making things better/more fun for the player) than a developer perspective (i.e., making the games easier to make).  While we definitely would like to improve the engine/editor, usability for the players would be our main priority. There are a number of common technical complaints we get almost every day from our customers and affiliates, and we can only shrug and say "Sorry, it's an AGS thing."

I actually think that's a really valuable perspective. Ultimately, the vast majority of AGS "users" are the players, not the game creators, and certainly not the engine developers. Most of us here are probably barely aware of the technical problems you refer to, but they should definitely be on the agenda, IMO. (And I'm not really worried that this would be at the expense of improvements to the codebase, the editor or the engine, since those are the main priorities for most of the contributors.)

QuoteSo, I guess you can count us interested, but like I said, we need to know more of what you'd expect from us.  I'd also like to get Janet's input, as she has more experience with this kinda thing than I do.  She's not home right now, but I'll show her this thread as soon as she gets in.

I hate to leave you with a "strong maybe", but consider us intrigued!

Yes, that's a good question. People have argued that the project lead doesn't necessarily need to be the main developer or technical driver, so what does the role consist of?

My understanding is that the main responsibilities involve managing releases, facilitating communication and discussion while cutting through disagreements about the overall project plan, and generally wrangling contributors (including making sure that major roles are filled/tasks assigned, and picking up slack where necessary). In some situations the project lead may also act as spokesperson and publicist for AGS. I would think a large part of it is just staying on top of things, making sure progress is made and people are happy. It also depends on what the technical leads (of the engine, editor and ports) see as their role, e.g. decisions about new features or changes to existing ones.

Since multiple people have expressed interest in the position, I would also suggest that most influence in an open-source project comes not from a formal title, but from just picking up tasks and doing them. If you want to play an important role in future AGS development, that's completely up to you. It's all well and good to sit and decide "it should be like this", but someone has to go and do it, and they ultimately decide what they do; if it works and isn't completely stupid, others will most likely go with it, or at least use it as a basis for improvement.

Do the rest of you agree with this description, or did you have something else in mind for the project lead?

JanetC

#70
Hi, this is Janet Gilbert, Dave Gilbert's wife. I don't post here (yet) but I lurk!

I'm currently coding an AGS game for Dave, but when that is finished (in Summer), we have plans to do ports for AGS to Mac and iOS, with Android and Linux as future possibilities. Aside from that, we are interested in keeping AGS compatible with future versions of Windows as they come out. These ports are very important to us; we can't count how many times people have asked for iOS versions of our games! The ports would be "output only" - we wouldn't port the editor.

I've worked in the game industry as a professional programmer for about 12 years now. My main area of expertise is mobile/cellphone games. C++ is my language of preference, but C is fine too.

I haven't much knowledge of the source of AGS, so I don't know how much work would be involved in this but I'm confident it can be done.

We definitely need to coordinate these changes with whoever ends up managing the project, as they would likely be sizeable and extensive, although I will try not to run too roughshod over the code!  I'd like to be in touch with anyone else planning to port AGS.

monkey0506

Not revoking anything that I said (which I will not be commenting on :D), but I think that a good point has been brought up. The whole reason I started this thread is because I may not have the same level of experience coding as Wyz or tzachs, JJS or bero, Janet...or dozens of others around here...in C++. I've honestly just never had too much need to learn it. As a hobbyist, AGS fit my needs.

Now that AGS itself is in a position where utilizing C++ could help improve the very core of what it is, I'm all about that! So regardless of whether it ever gets implemented, I'm going to keep doing what I am doing, and learning from the experience I gain. Who knows, maybe some day I'll end up coding my own game engine from scratch just to know what it feels like (Snarky, I will always remember you for a comment I once made to that effect! ;D).

This community is part of who I am. After (more than) 8 years, that's sorta just what happens. I feel that I could fulfill the role in question, if needed. If not, I'll continue doing anything I can to help benefit this community however I can. Presumably that would mean honing my talents as a programmer, and I think branching out into a better understanding of C++ is a great way for me to do that. 8)

RickJ

The PM's main role, IMHO, is to keep everyone organized, motivated, and aiming for the same goals.  This requires someone who has diplomatic, managerial and leadership skill and experience.     


Calin Leafshade

Right, Well it would seem that everyone who is going to comment has done so and we are just likely to tread old ground here so let's make some decisions.

From speaking to Dave it would seem that he and Janet are not likely to be available until the summer. Now I propose that we cant really afford to wait that long and lose our momentum so I think we should elect a caretaker manager of sorts. It's unlikely that any major changes to AGS' workflow and stuff will happen between now and the summer so the caretakers job would be to oversee the initial tasks and begin work. That is to say:

Bug tracker
Code documentation
Compatibility issues (64bit, new libraries if needed)
Infrastructure

Most of those things dont really require any (non-technical) decision making, just some coordination.

Once summer has err summed we can then reevaluate our position and maybe elect a new dear leader to start improving the core feature set of AGS.

How does that sound to everyone?

Dualnames

#74
Edit: Straying off too much from the conversation
Worked on Strangeland, Primordia, Hob's Barrow, The Cat Lady, Mage's Initiation, Until I Have You, Downfall, Hunie Pop, and every game in the Wadjet Eye Games catalogue (porting)

Calin Leafshade

Quote from: Dualnames on Sun 15/01/2012 08:34:38
This whole topic so far, at least one page ago, felt like highschool cockfights.

Actually I thought the discussion thus far was reasoned and civil  ???. Until you showed up and went all drama queen.

Quote from: Dualnames on Sun 15/01/2012 08:34:38
And well, Calin, calin's a douchebag, but still, objectively I think I made a point.

Well as long as we're being objective..

On a serious note, I'm happy for monkey to take the leading role. He is more experienced in both the community (I've only been here since 2009 and only released 2 serious games) and in the number of contributions to the community (Really? 28 modules?). I offered my own services as more of a backup.


Snarky

Duals, that post is ... unnecessary. Obviously picking who we want to lead AGS is a touchy question, so let's not make it into a confrontational contest, eh?

Modules and plugins are one way to establish a track record (or pay one's dues), but they're not the only one. If this was primarily about coding, being an individual contributor, that would be one thing, but it seems like we agree that, as RickJ says "The PM's main role, IMHO, is to keep everyone organized, motivated, and aiming for the same goals.  This requires someone who has diplomatic, managerial and leadership skill and experience." Dave has a track record of that that has nothing to do with how many modules he has or hasn't released.

AGD2 expressed interest a while ago, and he listed some compelling accomplishments. So I thought I'd give my thoughts on why he isn't mentioned among the main candidates, so that it hopefully won't seem like a snub. Simply speaking: AGD2, you've contributed to AGS in valuable ways, but you haven't really been a part of the AGS community (at least as found on these forums). You've been around since the beginning, but you've only made 113 posts. People around here don't really know you, so it's a tall order to turn over the project to you. Since you offer to help improve the engine through suggestions, bug reports, and even implementing and donating new features, that's definitely something that would be valued. Thanks!

Anyway, I agree with Calin that we shouldn't wait months for Dave/Janet to become available; but should give someone who's ready to pick it up right away a chance and see how it goes. If it's down to Calin and monkey, maybe they can work out if they want to hold a vote or just decide between themselves? Maybe a project lead/assistant project lead situation? (When I've held various organizing chair positions for academic conferences, I always found it very helpful to have a co-chair to talk things over with, pass email drafts to, and generally divide responsibilities with. Also, two people can keep each other on schedule. It worked for me; might not work for everybody.)

Dualnames

#77
Edit: Straying off too much from the conversation
Worked on Strangeland, Primordia, Hob's Barrow, The Cat Lady, Mage's Initiation, Until I Have You, Downfall, Hunie Pop, and every game in the Wadjet Eye Games catalogue (porting)

Sslaxx

Let's not get things any more inflamed around here than they already are, please.

It might be a good idea to take the discussions about project managers, technical leads etc. to another thread.
Stuart "Sslaxx" Moore.

Snarky

Sslaxx, I think the discussion of the project organization makes sense here (though I'd rename the thread), while talk about the engine source should be in the technical forum.

Quote from: Dualnames on Sun 15/01/2012 13:12:07
I mean if for example if we change a carpenter with another person, shouldn't that person be chosen by the carpentry skills he possesses? Instead I believe we are choosing the carpenter by how much he knows the clients, how much the clients like him, and if he's a shoes saleman. In the long run though carpentry skills will prove far from useful.

Right, but we're not looking for a carpenter. We're looking for a project lead. And so by your own logic, we should be focusing on project leadership skills. Which is not the same thing as cranking out modules by yourself.

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