The future of the AGS engine: STALEMATE!

[Wyz]

Making modules for AGS is quite the different job then making AGS. It's not simply coding, you need to know how to design computer programs. Know how code will run on different platforms, make sure your memory usage and cpu time usage is optimal. AGS also has a Virtual Machine. Making virtual machines and also maintaining them is not a task even for novice programmers. I don't know if the AGS VM needs work (well actually I think it does since a lot of people including monkey and me would love to see things like dynamic structs and structs passed a function arguments) but there are lots of other things that needs to be design really well even before a single file of code is written. But that's all useless right now, because we're looking for a project manager (and even a spindle in the AGS community as I described in that other post noone read). In that case we need a person -- let me just quote myself --  that is likeable, reliable and has good social skills. I would like to see stats for that Duals. Noo really I do. Because I think that is really really important. We can just keep sucking up to each other but who are we kidding? The community needs to decide.

[Dualnames]

Edit: Straying off too much from the conversation

[Calin Leafshade]

We can just keep sucking up to each other but who are we kidding? The community needs to decide.

Agreed, shut up dualnames.

I propose the following:

We vote on the 3 candidates available (monkey, myself and AGD2)

Now, none of us are particularly experienced in the task so I propose that whoever wins appoints a 'deputy' from the other two to heavily assist.

Once a week or so has elapsed we count the votes and then whoever wins takes over the discussion and starts to put some infrastructure in place.

From there, that person (and their deputy) will be expected to chair the discussion between the programmers (and testers i guess, lets get some of those) and decide where our priorities lie.

How does this sound? Yea or nay only please unless you have a worthwhile objection to make to we dont get sidetracked again.

[Dualnames]

Nay.

[Wyz]

Voting? really?
No, that is a foolish thing to do, just reread my post and don't use it out of its context again.

[m0ds]

Too early to vote really, this discussion on "who" and "why" only started a day or two ago. Let people get their feelings on the subject out. Is there any reason why a group of say, six or seven people can't work on the engine under the leadership of one other?

[Dave Gilbert]

Duals, I dunno if you are being sarcastic or what, but let's keep this on track please?

Anyway, in chatting it over with Janet (and a few people in the community) we agree that we wouldn't be the right ones to "lead" AGS.  However, we would like to be involved with whoever is.  Before we start on our next round of projects, we'd like to fix all the niggling issues we have with the engine.  So assuming nobody has fixed them before we're ready to go (which will probably be the summer), we'd be able to jump in and do it ourselves. 

[Calin Leafshade]

Voting? really?
No, that is a foolish thing to do, just reread my post and don't use it out of its context again.

I dont really think I took your post out of context but whatever. "foolish" was a nice touch though, thanks.

Too early to vote really, this discussion on "who" and "why" only started a day or two ago. Let people get their feelings on the subject out. Is there any reason why a group of say, six or seven people can't work on the engine under the leadership of one other?

Whatever the community as a whole decides would be best in my humble opinion. I suppose we'll see what comes out of a natural, non-voting discussion.

[Sslaxx]

Too early to vote really, this discussion on "who" and "why" only started a day or two ago. Let people get their feelings on the subject out. Is there any reason why a group of say, six or seven people can't work on the engine under the leadership of one other?

No, but the issue of who the "one other" (aka project manager) is going to be is very obviously highly contentious. That's what we need to decide now, yes? And we've already had a list of people who could be suitable.

I don't think it's fair to exclude Dave/Janet because they aren't available now. But equally letting AGS drift leaderless and directionless any more than it has been already is just not going to help either. But equally we're still hashing through those details - but we shouldn't spend too long on doing that either. And people jumping in and doing it themselves would just fracture the community moreso than it already is.

So:
How long should we talk about who is suitable to take leadership of AGS? I'd rather we didn't spend the next few months or so bitching amongst ourselves over it. But equally it's all still fairly up in the air right now. I guess it'd take about a month, maybe six weeks, at least before we can safely say we have a firm list. But if we are (<insert your favourite deity/ies here> forbid) still going this over by the time Dave/Janet finish their project, then we would need to come up with a concrete list.
How do we decide on choosing someone out of any final list? I have misgivings about just the "AGS illuminati" voting amongst themselves. I'd prefer it to be a vote by the wider AGS community, myself, although I'm aware that may not be practical.
How do we then decide on who does what? Whilst that may well be up to whoever becomes AGS manager, they should take into account who is doing what at that time, and (maybe more importantly?) what the strengths (and weaknesses) are of those people who are available.

[Calin Leafshade]

To be honest, If we are still deciding on a relatively minor point (I mean really, it doesnt matter that much, its mostly an administrative position) in 6 weeks then I think we have little hope of doing anything.

[qptain Nemo]

I'd like to point out that from what he's said here and on irc I see Wyz here as the only reasonable, skilled and honest enough man to be suitable for the position of the leader that requires making strong responsible decisions based on sense, genuine concern and determination and not heavily skewed sentimental notions. I don't see him as a man, who won't ever screw up anything, I see him as somebody who I can trust with a critical look at things and being able to act upon mistakes without thinking too much about pointless shame and pride. Seeing as he would love to help but isn't very insterested to claim the honourable position, he makes a perfect leader in my eyes. A humble one too, one that - I hope - won't push things through for the sake of his own ego and that would stop where necessary and would go against voices of many when that would be the right thing to do. Which in my opinion makes him a perfect first choice - I don't think he'd object to step down if anything goes too wrong. I'm not saying that's how it will be, I think that's how it can be, and it feels really worth checking. And checking something with a resonable person feels like a very right thing to do.
Wishful thinking? Only one way to find out.

[Sslaxx]

To be honest, If we are still deciding on a relatively minor point (I mean really, it doesnt matter that much, its mostly an administrative position) in 6 weeks then I think we have little hope of doing anything.

Calin, project manager is not a minor point. We aren't talking a figurehead here, we're talking the person who will be focal point and drive of AGS and its future direction. Whoever takes on this role will become the public face of AGS and its development team. It will be their vision of AGS's long-term future that will determine its future successes or failures.

[Calin Leafshade]

Well then I'll check back in 6 weeks :p

I'm pretty sure I've said everything I want to say on the subject. I think the position might be a tad too political in nature for me. I can be a little hot headed at times to my detriment and so I will step back now that monkey_05_06 has offered himself as a serious contender.

I hope this can all be resolved within the next few montsh so we can start working on stuff.

[Peder 🚀]

Takes a peek inside this thread...

Wyz, please. Lead AGS and give it the love it so badly need!
Lead it to become a multiplatform engine with an amazing networking solution!

Leaves thread never to return..

[monkey0506]

I feel somewhat responsible for Dual. I discussed some things with him on Facebook, which ultimately was nothing more than me just venting a mixture of feelings. The very fact that my name has even been mentioned is, frankly, enough to give a guy a big head. That put together with some of his personal feelings about this and that...

It was a personal conversation, most of which was meaningless. In the end, I said to him, as I said here: regardless of what comes of all this, AGS is part of my life, and it's going to continue being such. I'm going to continue "cranking out modules" in the blind hope that maybe, just maybe, someone will find them useful. In 8 years I've worked on two actual game projects, both of which ended up being placed in the "Joke games" category because of extreme shortness of play, lack of genuinely useful content, and the storylines themselves.

Those two games are not the reason my name was placed in this list. My name was placed in this list (from my own personal understanding, belief, and perspective) because in that 8 years I have given to this community. In addition to writing modules, I've answered hundreds, dare I even say possibly thousands, of technical questions from basic beginner things of how to use the module, to writing a post with a custom code snippet that by the end of its writing turned out to be 50+ lines of code, written on the fly, and don't you know it, never tested at all!

So, to me, the reason my name is on that list is because I've given something to this community. Does that make me a perfect fit for the job? No, of course not. Does my knowledge of programming, which is, despite its strengths, severely lacking in the practical aspects involved in making the engine everything we need it to be, does that make me in any way a better candidate than Wyz or tzachs or Calin? I certainly wouldn't think so.

This community is part of me just as much as I'm part of it. I don't want to see this turn into a grand argument, particularly not over me. For now, I think we can maintain civility, but if my nomination becomes a point of contention...then it's not worth it. I write these modules, I answer these posts, I started this thread, I come here every day that I can (several times a day at that), often spending time here that I quite realistically should be spending doing other things. I do all that for one reason: because I love this place. But maybe I'm not the best available person to be its leader into the future. And I'm okay with that.

Edit: By the way, for anyone who's interested, this is my 1337th post in Gen-Gen.

[Sslaxx]

You cannot escape politics anywhere. AGS is no exception, Calin, why ever did you think it could be? We have people supporting Dave/Janet, people supporting Wyz, Monkey_05_06, sometimes contrary to what these people have said themselves in regard to this role.

We could really do with categorical "Yes, I am interested" and "No, I am not interested" statements. That would, if nothing else, provide something to point at and then to work from.

YES, INTERESTED:

NO, NOT INTERESTED:
Calin Leafshade

[Calin Leafshade]

My plan was to run a harmonious system whereby I just chaired the opinions of the programmers, testers and community, hopefully coming to a consensus on a course of action rather than saying what I personally think AGS should do. I wanted to act as I have [tried to] in this thread as a hub just to direct conversation and ensure action is taken. But it seems that the project manager should be more of a figurehead and an an absolute authority which doesn't interest me since I don't have the time nor the force of will to take that kind of responsibility on my shoulders. I am, after all, still a newbie in comparison to some of you guys.

So no, I'm not interested in leading the project.

[Igor Hardy]

I'm wondering if it's not too much pressure and responsibility to put just on one person. I'm worrying that the elected lead might get tired of his position pretty quick and switch to procrastination mode.

As there are 3 strong candidates, couldn't they agree to establish some kind of triumvirate that will divide the tasks at hand depending on skill and free time they have?

[monkey0506]

Calin, you can't step down if I was about to! There'll be no one left to lead AGS. It will be chaos! INSANITY! ANARCHY!! AHHH!!! BUILD ALL THE AGS BRANCHES WITH CUSTOM EXTENSIONS! FORK THE ENGINE LIKE A POT ROAST!!! AAHHHHRRRRRRGGG!



Actually, I do feel that I have the time and capability to fill the role, at least for now, if it were asked of me. I'd love to help out however, and in whatever capacity I am able and needed.

One point that I'd be interested in addressing is the refactoring of the code. We need something clean, and consistent. And a lot of the static limitations of the engine are only static because they're programmed with static values. I think that making the code a bit more abstract with some generics would do wonders. That, IMO, should be the greatest priority right now.

Also, the idea of appointing secretaries assistants makes perfect sense. We do have lives outside of this, and ultimately that's what happened to CJ. Took him over a decade to fully burn out, but we're coming into this under totally different terms than he did...and the work we have before us is intimidating to say the least. Still, this community has a great spirit, and we'll figure it out...together.

[Wyz]

Edit: I'm making a new topic