The future of the AGS engine: STALEMATE!

Started by monkey0506, Sat 23/07/2011 11:10:40

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Wyz

Well actually, there has been a seperate discussion in this topic:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=45149.40
Sorry for the inconvenience but could you please read it (the last two pages or so) as well?
Here we discussed the fact we rather have a group of people 'in charge' rather then just the one. There is no need to rush this, in fact it must be taken care of in a precise way or else we just get side tracked in loads of discussion as seen before. I rather ask Peder to set up a forum somewhere then having a subforum on WEG if we must, but as m0ds pointed out, he's waiting for CJ to respond and I think that would be a nice thing to do since it is his baby. :P
Life is like an adventure without the pixel hunts.

Peder 🚀

I'd gladly set up a forum somewhere and even buy a dedicated domain name for it, but I find it rather pointless to make such a forum anywhere besides here. And why do we even need a forum to start things off? What is with all this rush? Are the roles that have been spoken of even filled in yet?

m0ds

CJ was only notified of this last week so it's worth waiting a little bit longer in hope it can be an AGS sub-forum or two.

Dave Gilbert

Quote from: Wyz on Sun 29/01/2012 13:14:04
Well actually, there has been a seperate discussion in this topic:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=45149.40
Sorry for the inconvenience but could you please read it (the last two pages or so) as well?
Here we discussed the fact we rather have a group of people 'in charge' rather then just the one. There is no need to rush this, in fact it must be taken care of in a precise way or else we just get side tracked in loads of discussion as seen before. I rather ask Peder to set up a forum somewhere then having a subforum on WEG if we must, but as m0ds pointed out, he's waiting for CJ to respond and I think that would be a nice thing to do since it is his baby. :P

Hm.  I didn't know that other thread even existed!  I went and read it.  And maybe I'm a bit late to the party, but I'm not quite sure I understand.  My understanding was that nobody was going to be in charge per se, but someone was needed to keep an eye on things and make sure progress was continually being made.  Is that no longer needed?  And will someone be in charge of merging any changes into the official branch?  Or is that handled by everybody?  Right now there are a bunch of AGS branches with different features and upgrades.  It would be nice to have a new "official" version that merges all these changes into one.  

Anyway, I guess this is something we can discuss once we have a subforum and some volunteers!  Like I said, I'm not really the guy to handle anything technical, but if you need help on the management end then just ask!

And Peder: A few posts ago someone asked if I could "start right away" which made me think there was some level of urgency.  If that's not the case, then I have no problem waiting.

m0ds

I just had a quick message from CJ saying he fully intends to come and sort all these things out as soon as he gets a free night. Obviously, there could be a couple of hours work setting things up from his end.

Dave Gilbert


timofonic

Quote from: m0ds on Tue 31/01/2012 02:09:27
I just had a quick message from CJ saying he fully intends to come and sort all these things out as soon as he gets a free night. Obviously, there could be a couple of hours work setting things up from his end.

Any news about releasing the older AGS versions? A full release of the Visual SourceSafe repo could be amazing to have. This is something quite demanded by the ScummVM Team, so please say him to contact them about this.

monkey0506

Tim, you're quite literally the only person in my 8 1/2 years here that I've ever seen reference the AGS source code existing within a Visual SourceSafe repository.

In fact, just to be sure I wasn't making an arsehat out of myself, I used the forum search for "SourceSafe" and then again for "Source Safe". Pumaman (CJ) has made a couple of comments to the effect that the AGS 3.0+ editor has the capability of integrating with VSS systems that may be installed, provided that they utilize the MSSCCI interface. The editor has nothing to do with the run-time engine, just to be clear.

So, given the fact that CJ has, until very, very recently, been the sole contributor to the AGS codebase, why would you assume that he would have the code in a source control repository to begin with? I'm not saying he doesn't, wouldn't, shouldn't, couldn't, etc., but I don't understand your reason for assuming that he did, and then why you're being so specific as to state "Visual SourceSafe repo".

CJ is not ignorant, but he is a busy man. He's fully capable of releasing the AGS 2.72- source when he's good and ready. If he never reaches that point, then it's his proprietary software, and it's not your place to tell him what to do with it. I think that just as the technical forums have a warning against asking when the next version of AGS will be released, we should have a general rule against asking when CJ is going to open up the source of older AGS versions. He'll do it if and when he wants to, and nothing and no one is going to change that.

Alan v.Drake


Besides the jokes, we're only missing those ancient 2.x sources (of which I don't care much since I don't see myself willing to play any of those old ags game on ScummVM) and the more important AGS.Native, which is the only piece left for the current version to be completely open sourced.

I have some properties I'd wish to add to regions, characters and objects, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I need the Native because that's where the code that actually saves such stuff is.  :-\


- Alan

monkey0506

There's an interface publicly exposed that relates what calls AGS.Native is used for...so hypothetically there's nothing to stop you from writing your own compiler. It would just have to understand the raw AGS scripts and resources and then convert them into a format which the engine can understand...

Not saying it's a small feat, but perfectly possible. :=

timofonic

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Tue 31/01/2012 20:13:27
Tim, you're quite literally the only person in my 8 1/2 years here that I've ever seen reference the AGS source code existing within a Visual SourceSafe repository.

In fact, just to be sure I wasn't making an arsehat out of myself, I used the forum search for "SourceSafe" and then again for "Source Safe". Pumaman (CJ) has made a couple of comments to the effect that the AGS 3.0+ editor has the capability of integrating with VSS systems that may be installed, provided that they utilize the MSSCCI interface. The editor has nothing to do with the run-time engine, just to be clear.

So, given the fact that CJ has, until very, very recently, been the sole contributor to the AGS codebase, why would you assume that he would have the code in a source control repository to begin with? I'm not saying he doesn't, wouldn't, shouldn't, couldn't, etc., but I don't understand your reason for assuming that he did, and then why you're being so specific as to state "Visual SourceSafe repo".

CJ is not ignorant, but he is a busy man. He's fully capable of releasing the AGS 2.72- source when he's good and ready. If he never reaches that point, then it's his proprietary software, and it's not your place to tell him what to do with it. I think that just as the technical forums have a warning against asking when the next version of AGS will be released, we should have a general rule against asking when CJ is going to open up the source of older AGS versions. He'll do it if and when he wants to, and nothing and no one is going to change that.

He said about using VSS for AGS development, I talked with him over a PM. So please don't attack me like this way, at least for this ;)

He said about to release it in a PM too, so maybe he forgot it due to being too busy. People over ScummVM Team is quite interested on older AGS releases, they want to support classic AGS games and that's part of their needs for the task.

He can do whatever may like, but I have great faith in his words said to me and others :)

I don't want to annoy him, but the situation is quite frustrating to a lot of people wanting to do something to preserve his works to the world. There's momentum to be used, instead people get bored waiting for it.

The same happen to reorganizing the AGS project, even different roles like site maintainer and webmaster.

An "AGS Foundation" would be quite nice to make the project bigger in the future, but maybe that's a quite big task...

Monkey, you request too much rules. Do you want to be the forum dictator or something? :)

Calin Leafshade


monkey0506

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Tue 31/01/2012 20:13:27So, given the fact that CJ has, until very, very recently, been the sole contributor to the AGS codebase, why would you assume that he would have the code in a source control repository to begin with? I'm not saying he doesn't, wouldn't, shouldn't, couldn't, etc., but I don't understand your reason for assuming that he did, and then why you're being so specific as to state "Visual SourceSafe repo".

Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23He said about using VSS for AGS development, I talked with him over a PM. So please don't attack me like this way, at least for this ;)

I'm sorry, but what? Nobody's attacking you, stop being an idiot please. All I did was ask why you were making these assumptions. If CJ told you that over a PM then that's fine. That's all you had to say. Again, it hasn't been discussed in the public forum.

Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23He said about to release it in a PM too, so maybe he forgot it due to being too busy.

Right. After more than a decade working on developing a program, one that spawned this community which regularly has annual and even sub-annual real-life meetings of its international members, I'm sure he forgot about AGS. Sorry, but you're making my brain hurt.

Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23People over ScummVM Team is quite interested on older AGS releases, they want to support classic AGS games and that's part of their needs for the task.

He can do whatever may like, but I have great faith in his words said to me and others :)

Great! You should believe in CJ. He's a good guy. And ScummVM is certainly more than welcome to use the code of existing or prior engine versions in accordance with their respective licenses. Currently there are no 2.x branches of the engine which are open source, but CJ will resolve that, again, if and when he has time.

Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23I don't want to annoy him, but the situation is quite frustrating to a lot of people wanting to do something to preserve his works to the world. There's momentum to be used, instead people get bored waiting for it.

You're contradicting yourself. You say you don't want to be a nuisance but in the same breath turn and say that CJ is being frustrating by not bowing down immediately before your commands. Honestly, this is all starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth, but for now I'll hold onto the belief that you're just the worst spokesperson that ScummVM could have hoped for (no technical knowledge, poor communication skills, total lack of appreciation for the rights of the author and copyright holder and his ability to make intelligent decisions, etc.).

Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23The same happen to reorganizing the AGS project, even different roles like site maintainer and webmaster.

An "AGS Foundation" would be quite nice to make the project bigger in the future, but maybe that's a quite big task...

I don't understand why "site maintainer" and "webmaster" should necessitate separate positions. Should the webmaster be competent enough to maintain the site? Certainly delegating things to other people to help out would be fine, but this is yet another example that despite your inherent love for the modeling of the ScummVM team and project organization, you understand absolutely nothing about it.

Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23Monkey, you request too much rules. Do you want to be the forum dictator or something? :)

Of course I want to be forum dictator. I'm a total power-hungry prick. How else could I have mustered the strength or courage to ask you to just accept what CJ has already told you and stop spamming the forums with these posts demanding that CJ follow through right now? I mean, how dare I ask you to show a bit of courtesy, respect, or appreciation to the man who has made this very community a possibility by his tireless hard work, determination, and undying dedication?

Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Wed 01/02/2012 10:21:08yea monkey,

stop requesting rules.

Calin, stop requesting it be made a rule that I can't request that rules be made! ::)

P.S. To anyone who isn't incapable of coherent, intelligible thought, it was at least relatively clear that said "suggestion" for said "rule" was rhetorical, was it not? Clearly we don't need such a thing written in stone to have infringers cast out and forever shunned...just more of a general mindset that CJ is aware of the request, and he will deal with it himself...that posting about it in the forums cannot and will not expedite or in any way affect or effect the process...and so what then is the point of posting it?

Wyz

Ok, glad we have that resolved now!

Let me make a comment about the whole releasing of code:
I'd like all code to be released but that is up to CJ really, there is no point in having discussions about it really. CJ will do it when and if he has time for it, as monkey already pointed out.
There is a momentum now but if we rush things we might lose it two weeks in because we haven't thought things trough properly and we'll have to back track. Let me assure you, even though things look quite they are very much in motion, interested people are talking and CJ has been informed. So chill, we'll get there.

Btw, moving the 2.x branch to scummVM would be a really good idea in my opinion as soon as it gets released in due time.
Life is like an adventure without the pixel hunts.

timofonic

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Wed 01/02/2012 16:14:22
Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Tue 31/01/2012 20:13:27So, given the fact that CJ has, until very, very recently, been the sole contributor to the AGS codebase, why would you assume that he would have the code in a source control repository to begin with? I'm not saying he doesn't, wouldn't, shouldn't, couldn't, etc., but I don't understand your reason for assuming that he did, and then why you're being so specific as to state "Visual SourceSafe repo".

Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23He said about using VSS for AGS development, I talked with him over a PM. So please don't attack me like this way, at least for this ;)

I'm sorry, but what? Nobody's attacking you, stop being an idiot please. All I did was ask why you were making these assumptions. If CJ told you that over a PM then that's fine. That's all you had to say. Again, it hasn't been discussed in the public forum.

Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23He said about to release it in a PM too, so maybe he forgot it due to being too busy.

Right. After more than a decade working on developing a program, one that spawned this community which regularly has annual and even sub-annual real-life meetings of its international members, I'm sure he forgot about AGS. Sorry, but you're making my brain hurt.

I'm sorry to read that, I hope your brain gets better soon.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Wed 01/02/2012 16:14:22
Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23People over ScummVM Team is quite interested on older AGS releases, they want to support classic AGS games and that's part of their needs for the task.

He can do whatever may like, but I have great faith in his words said to me and others :)

Great! You should believe in CJ. He's a good guy. And ScummVM is certainly more than welcome to use the code of existing or prior engine versions in accordance with their respective licenses. Currently there are no 2.x branches of the engine which are open source, but CJ will resolve that, again, if and when he has time.

It's OK then. We both agree on this.


Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Wed 01/02/2012 16:14:22
Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23I don't want to annoy him, but the situation is quite frustrating to a lot of people wanting to do something to preserve his works to the world. There's momentum to be used, instead people get bored waiting for it.

You're contradicting yourself. You say you don't want to be a nuisance but in the same breath turn and say that CJ is being frustrating by not bowing down immediately before your commands. Honestly, this is all starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth, but for now I'll hold onto the belief that you're just the worst spokesperson that ScummVM could have hoped for (no technical knowledge, poor communication skills, total lack of appreciation for the rights of the author and copyright holder and his ability to make intelligent decisions, etc.).

He's not frustrating, but the current situation to both the AGS community and other involved parties. I understand his situation partially, but unfortunately I don't  know him personally.

I'm not a spokesperson, just an user. Anyway, I'm sorry if I looked like one. So I prefer those responsabilities bieng done by the official people for that task, you'll enjoy my absence in ScummVM-related topics from now :)

Thanks for your personal rant about me, it's very appreciative ;)

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Wed 01/02/2012 16:14:22
Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23The same happen to reorganizing the AGS project, even different roles like site maintainer and webmaster.

An "AGS Foundation" would be quite nice to make the project bigger in the future, but maybe that's a quite big task...

I don't understand why "site maintainer" and "webmaster" should necessitate separate positions. Should the webmaster be competent enough to maintain the site? Certainly delegating things to other people to help out would be fine, but this is yet another example that despite your inherent love for the modeling of the ScummVM team and project organization, you understand absolutely nothing about it.

That depends on the technical side of the site. I would say it's possible in most cases.

Anyway, the example was erratical so nevermind...

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Wed 01/02/2012 16:14:22
Quote from: timofonic on Wed 01/02/2012 09:46:23Monkey, you request too much rules. Do you want to be the forum dictator or something? :)
Of course I want to be forum dictator. I'm a total power-hungry prick. How else could I have mustered the strength or courage to ask you to just accept what CJ has already told you and stop spamming the forums with these posts demanding that CJ follow through right now? I mean, how dare I ask you to show a bit of courtesy, respect, or appreciation to the man who has made this very community a possibility by his tireless hard work, determination, and undying dedication?

I didn't try to lack of courtesy, respect or appreciation to CJ. It wasn't my intention. The language barrier seems a problem here too.

Quote from: monkey_05_06 on Wed 01/02/2012 16:14:22
Quote from: Calin Leafshade on Wed 01/02/2012 10:21:08yea monkey,

stop requesting rules.

Calin, stop requesting it be made a rule that I can't request that rules be made! ::)

P.S. To anyone who isn't incapable of coherent, intelligible thought, it was at least relatively clear that said "suggestion" for said "rule" was rhetorical, was it not? Clearly we don't need such a thing written in stone to have infringers cast out and forever shunned...just more of a general mindset that CJ is aware of the request, and he will deal with it himself...that posting about it in the forums cannot and will not expedite or in any way affect or effect the process...and so what then is the point of posting it?

Whatever...

pcj

I think we all need to follow the advice in monkey's sig and not feed the trolls....getting a bit OT in this thread too.
Space Quest: Vohaul Strikes Back is now available to download!

RickJ

I don't think Tim is a troll.  He is making a noble attempt to try to bring to disparate communities together despite their cultural (as in cyber not ethnic) differences.  It's a near impossible and thankless task.

Tim thanks for the effort.

m0ds

Yes, and thanks for the email timfonic. Once we know what CJ wants and truly what the AGS team can deliver, there is no point denying the possibility of ScummVM stuff. I can't speak for the man but will definitely pass your wishes on, and any new team formed should really think about them. There are lots of questions worthy of answering at the mo but some form of foundation would be good at least to begin with, IMO. So we know what our goals are for AGS for the future in a clear form.

monkey0506

I'm sorry if I've been a bit short with Tim, or anyone else, but I think Mark has summed it up nicely. We're aware of the situation at hand, and good points have been raised, but if we're just restating the same things then we're chasing ourselves around in circles without getting anywhere.

At this point, we are waiting on CJ for various things, but it doesn't mean that we're incapable of taking any action. We do have the source code of the engine. At the very least, beginning to refactor the code now could only help things further down the road.

timofonic

Thanks for the support, I appreciate it a lot!

Despite my opinions can be controversial, I try to do my best for both communities. I'm a very fan of the adventure game genre and I believe AGS is one of the best things happened to it.

So even if some people don't agree or commit mistakes opinating about me, I came back here.

Monkey, don't worry. I don't get it as something personal. I accept your apologies ;)

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