Author Topic: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)  (Read 12749 times)

Ghost

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime
« Reply #20 on: 06 Feb 2012, 19:59 »
cianty- Yes, there is one "endless deck" that both players draw from. You're right, allowing to customize pools for both players would add a layer of strategy; let's see what'll happen soonishly ;)

selmiak: Draws are counted, but they don't appear in the statistics. It must be a "true draw", too, where both towers go K.O. in one turn without any other effects happening "in between". It's rare but can happen; the code (hopefully  :P ) catches all types of draw.

I've uploaded a new version (1.0.1.) See first post for updated link and changelog.
It fixes the most glaring glitches. I also fixed the "Rogue" card's calculation, and added custom icons. I think this is the last update for "vanilla Hubris", though. You've really made my day by downloading like hell and giving so encouraging feedback; an extended version it shall be, then.
To the drawing board!

Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime
« Reply #21 on: 06 Feb 2012, 20:15 »
Gah, my PC is still bust, gonna see if this will work on the laptop I'm borrowing.  ??? ???  (Yay!  It does! :D)

Congrats on the release anyway, looks great, though obviously Agocapwa would have been a much better title for your game.  ;D
« Last Edit: 06 Feb 2012, 20:20 by CaptainD »

m0ds

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime
« Reply #22 on: 06 Feb 2012, 21:26 »
Looks great Ghost and I hope to give it a go real soon! Can't wait to see that animated cursor in action :)

Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #23 on: 06 Feb 2012, 22:20 »
Yay for an extended version! Seriously, this is such a fine well-done fun game that it's a bit of a shame for it to be a mere re-release of an existing game. Such an excellent execution certainly deserves its share of original and exclusive content not to be found in any other 'edition' of the game.
ca. 70% completed

DoorKnobHandle

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #24 on: 07 Feb 2012, 19:05 »
As expected, the very random nature of the card draws is making my addiction to the game fade away fairly fast... :)


FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU! Just look at that! !@#$!

Can't wait for the extended version however!

Tabata

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #25 on: 07 Feb 2012, 19:18 »
I don't see the problem  ???

That's like it goes in life (even when playing cards) - you don't always get what you want!

In this case you simpy can drop a card (and choose a bigger card set for the next game)  8)

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #26 on: 07 Feb 2012, 19:24 »
The 4th card I dropped finally ended up a non-green one! :) Of course, 3 free actions for my opponent was more than enough to make him win the game shortly after.

I didn't realize that I was playing with less cards than there are, I thought the different match types only affected start and win conditions (ie. how much health do the walls and towers have and how much do you need to win)! Will give that a try.

Of course it's all a game design decision (or rather, it will be, in the extended version). I personally don't like games that are very luck-based, I prefer skill-based. This game, even in the vanilla version, is somewhere in between but situations like these are kinda extreme!

NickyNyce

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #27 on: 07 Feb 2012, 19:47 »
Trying to destroy the enemys tower in certain game types is not the best strategy.The fact there are multiple ways to win gives the game a helping hand.

Radiant

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #28 on: 07 Feb 2012, 19:50 »
That's like it goes in life (even when playing cards) - you don't always get what you want!

It would be interesting to see if it plays differently if the cards act as a deck of cards (that is, every card is in there once, and if you play a card you can be sure that your opponent doesn't have it, and you won't get a copy of it until the stock is reshuffled).


Trying to destroy the enemys tower in certain game types is not the best strategy.The fact there are multiple ways to win gives the game a helping hand.

Yes. I have the impression that the average blue card adds more to your tower than the average green card reduces it, so if this impression is correct then assault is statistically not a very good strategy (although it depends on the exact goal values). I find that I usually win by maxing out a resource.

Victor6

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #29 on: 07 Feb 2012, 19:52 »
I don't see the problem  ???

That's like it goes in life (even when playing cards) - you don't always get what you want!

I'd have to agree with Tabata, it's luck of the draw.

Besides, the same things can happen to your opponent (granted, people don't consider that quite as annoying.)

DoorKnobHandle

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #30 on: 07 Feb 2012, 20:08 »
I don't see the problem  ???

That's like it goes in life (even when playing cards) - you don't always get what you want!

I'd have to agree with Tabata, it's luck of the draw.

Besides, the same things can happen to your opponent (granted, people don't consider that quite as annoying.)

As I said very clearly:

Quote
Of course it's all a game design decision (or rather, it will be, in the extended version). I personally don't like games that are very luck-based, I prefer skill-based. This game, even in the vanilla version, is somewhere in between but situations like these are kinda extreme!

I know what random means and that in this version, which cards you get is just luck. A random factor is a good component in lots of games but in a relatively high number of Hubris rounds I play, I feel like either I can't do anything to actually win because the card draw was so lopsided or I win without really having to think because I got awesome cards while the opponent didn't have the same luck.

I'm posting this because I want to express my opinion and because I hope that there will be lots of ways to get away from the focus on luck in the extended version, as it would make me like the game a LOT more!
« Last Edit: 07 Feb 2012, 20:11 by dkh »

Ghost

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #31 on: 07 Feb 2012, 20:17 »
I'm posting this because I want to express my opinion and because I hope that there will be lots of ways to get away from the focus on luck in the extended version, as it would make me like the game a LOT more!

I am listening carefully and making notes- your feedback is valuable to me because it touches an important element: Skill.

The situation you posted is somewhat extreme (though not out of the ordinary), but I bet if we all knew there was an advanced Ai working in the background, actively trying to PUT YOU into a situation where you can't play a card for several turns, we would say "Wow, now that's some good AI, it puts up a fight."

Skill is a bit harder to define in a card game that in, say, a shooter or jump and run. A skilled poker player is different from a skilled Magic player. I'm busy jotting down ideas how Hubris could become a game that is more about "skill" than just lucky draws- so please keep it coming!

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #32 on: 07 Feb 2012, 20:18 »
Yeah, makes perfect sense! If there are ways, via match options or whatever, to push it a little away from being luck-based then this would be such an amazing card game to me! :) Once again, excellent work!

EDIT: Radiant's points are below are spot on and excellent!
« Last Edit: 07 Feb 2012, 20:36 by dkh »

Radiant

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #33 on: 07 Feb 2012, 20:29 »
Some thoughts on skill.

First, looking through the card set there are some really good cards (Wall Swap comes to mind) and some really bad cards (e.g. anything that reduces your income). This is not always reflected by the cost. Ideally, bad cards would be cheap to play, and good cards expensive. Conversely, expensive cards should be good. It's okay if a card that's twice as expensive is also three times as good.

Second, once your income gets high (which is easy with a bunch of income boosting cards, and it starts out that way in certain game types), the cost to play cards become irrelevant. It's pretty easy to end up with, say, more gems than you could ever need. This reduces skill factor, and could be mitigated by reducing the amount of income boosters.

Third, you cannot really influence what cards you get, and this increases the random factor. Tactically speaking, playing a card is pretty much always better than playing nothing and discarding one. It would be interesting if, instead of discarding one, you could discard three or four cards simultaneously: that way, you could get rid of cards you don't need quickly.

And fourth, with two colors dedicated to increasing walls or towers, and one dedicated to reducing them, you'll most likely end up with a "big tower" or "many resources" victory. To make an assault victory viable, offensive has to be stronger on average than defense (note that Magic deliberately chooses this option).

$.02 and YMMV, of course.

Ghost

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #34 on: 07 Feb 2012, 20:48 »
$.02 and YMMV, of course.

I agree with pretty much all points. I would like to keep the simple premise of the game but I see some options myself to make variables more useful:

* Cards could easily have variable modifiers. Especially creatures could make good use of that: "Deals 5 damage, +1 damage for each brick above 12". So "wealth" would be something to strive for, and expensive (more expensive) cards would probably make you "globally weaker".

* Card costs really are a bit odd at times. Fixing them (or providing "upgraded" versions of a card with increased bonus and increases price) is probably a good idea; that's something where playtesters will be invaluable.

* Cards could also have multi-coloured costs, like in Magic. Arcomage implements this with decreasing resources but in a somewhat half-baked fashion since a card that decreases a resource can be played even without having those resources.

* The creature card pool would benefit a lot from new (more) cards. Some cool features are present on exactly one card as if to prove the concept (Rogue, for example).

* I see potential in cards that made Magic / PTCG so cool: Making the enemy lose a turn (you get resources two times and can play two times). Forcing a player to drop all cards of a certain colour. Dropping multiple cards yourself.

As it is, I still like the simple premise of two powerful wizards taking potshots at each other's tower, but hell, a week ago I wouldn't have thought that I would end up inventing my own rules.
Thanks a lot, guys and gal(s) (?)!
« Last Edit: 07 Feb 2012, 20:50 by Ghost »

NickyNyce

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #35 on: 07 Feb 2012, 21:43 »
Just some thoughts...you're the master mind, you figure it out  :P

Maybe you could just play a card that gives you 5 new cards. How about a card that lets you switch yours with the enemies... :-\

You would decide if the cards in your hand can't hurt you, so you swap with the enemy.

What if after you play a card....you get 5 new ones, would this in anyway make the game more strategic?  Now when the player goes, he needs to choose the best possible card to play at that moment. Now I know that's what you basically do now, but by doing this at least you are always getting 5 new cards to choose from. This might help with stopping the player from getting annoyed at having bad cards and not being able to drop more then one.

All of these options have consequences on game play of course and would need to be heavily tested.

As with all games of this type...the cards effects are everything. I wish the greatest of luck in doing this, because WHEN you do get this game thinking back at you, it will turn into a real BEAST! 

Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #36 on: 10 Feb 2012, 01:10 »
Quote
Yes. I have the impression that the average blue card adds more to your tower than the average green card reduces it, so if this impression is correct then assault is statistically not a very good strategy (although it depends on the exact goal values). I find that I usually win by maxing out a resource.
Hm, that's interesting. While Radiant is 100% right, most of my victories are warmonger victories and I sometimes manage to reduce the enemy tower from nearly 100 after a series of blue cards on their side down to 0, using the various -resources cards available (if I'm lucky enough to have them). Perhaps the deck could use more (or more powerful) -vault/-quarry/-resources cards? It's quite fun to see the AI build up a huuuuge tower, then waste several turns doing nothing because they have no vaults or quarries left after you've spend your turns to severely reduce their resources.

Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #37 on: 10 Feb 2012, 01:46 »
I think that most of my points have been made already, but let me then at least cast another vote for them:

First, well done!  I really like the bar interface, and the game itself plays well and is enjoyable. ^_^

As to suggestions, I would like to see more animations, and most especially a graphical representation of the state of each side's tower and wall, likely with height indicating strength.  I'm inclined to suggest that height indicate a percentage of some visual maximum; perhaps have the initial strength correspond to 50%, and simply cap tower- and wall- heights to 100%

Above 100%, perhaps add some indicator to the top of the wall or tower, as appropriate.  In the case of walls, you could also add additional walls for values above 100%, to some reasonable number.

My main frustration in the gameplay was, as others have said, the randomness of the cards.  I've had a few cases in which I sit, playing or discarding cards that are of little interest to me while I wait for the random number generator to give me a card that fits with whatever I'm trying to do at the time.  I really like the suggestion given above of allowing custom decks built up from a greater stock of cards, allowing a player to create a strategy of one sort or another, and hopefully ascribing wins and loss more to the player than to the draw of the cards.

Finally, you mentioned more variety in the card effects, I believe; this could be a very positive addition, I do think.  A few ideas for such might be:
 - Cards that prevent the opponent from playing cards of a given type.  (A "Mesmerism" card might prevent the playing of creature cards, for example.)
 - Cards that swap resource pools around, either between one's own pools or those of the enemy.  (A "Crystaline Life" card might swap your gem count with your creature count, while a "Rock Monsters" card might swap the enemy's bricks for his creatures, for example.)
 - Cards that allow the player to draw N cards of a given type, after discarding the appropriate number of cards in hand - perhaps allowing the player to select the number of new cards by the number of cards discarded.  While this effect is similar to the suggestion above of multiple discards (which also seems like a good idea to me), it had the benefit of allowing the player to use those new cards on the same turn.  Additionally, such a card might specify a minimum number of discards, or the type of card to discard.  (A "Crystaline Ritual" card might have the player discard two or more gem cards to gain that number of creature cards, or a "Summoning" card might have the player discard at least three cards to draw the highest-cost creature card still in their deck, for example.)

Ghost

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #38 on: 11 Feb 2012, 03:43 »
 http://indiegames.com/2012/02/freeware_game_pick_hubris_ghos.html

Apparently someone spread the word- thanks a lot! That's the second time I made it into indiegames headlines- that must mean I am an indie game designer! I always wanted to be an indie game designer! Whee!

First, well done!  I really like the bar interface, and the game itself plays well and is enjoyable. ^_^
Thanks a lot! I really enjoyed doodling the guests and make it cosy!

selmiak

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Re: [MAGS] Hubris - A Popular Pub Pastime (new version 1.0.1)
« Reply #39 on: 19 Feb 2012, 19:45 »
LOL, the barkeeper is a headbanger. Just hover your mouse somewhere between his (from the viewers view) left cheeck and left ear and he will start headbanging.
This is also possible with the card collector and the players. The player girl looks like she is really shaking her head all the time :D