Presidential Handicaps

Started by Snarky, Thu 24/05/2012 19:19:38

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Ali

Quote from: InCreator on Fri 25/05/2012 12:50:18President should be chosen only for his qualifications as a leader and politician

I would say a major qualification for being a leader is not believing something PATENTLY MORONIC. Like creationism, or that women can't be leaders.

InCreator

#21
QuoteLike creationism, or that women can't be leaders.

I'm not saying they cannot just that in my opinion sucks to have one (based on how much I know history).
Okay, Tarja Halonen succeeded and she's a smart woman but <erased>

In everyday life, based on past experience, female bosses are the worst.
Name a successful, highly loved female leader who didn't sell out/oppress her peers or ended on a burning stake/prison/whatever?

Spoiler
Edit: I've been warned! Edited for clarity as much as I found actually 'over the line'. Looks like mysterious mod asks me to remove like half of the post. What has happened to our gen-gen...! :'(
Wholly deleting those parts is pointless, since they're 1) quoted and 2) totally okay in General Discussion since 2003 at least and 3) Forum nazi
[close]

Snarky

#22
Quote from: InCreator on Fri 25/05/2012 12:50:18
President should be chosen only for his qualifications as a leader and politician, not how twisted he is, what he kneels before, what his skin color is or who he sleeps with. So this whole thread is dumb. "Are people ready"... what do you mean ready? If his political views match the majority of people and he's good at being a leader, that's all one should worry about.

But, like WHAM earlier in the thread, you are assuming that just because that's all people should worry about, that's all people do worry about. In fact, many groups face prejudice and distrust from large sections of the voting population, which means they have no realistic chance of being elected even if they are well qualified. (If it's news to you that not too long ago, racism meant that a black man had no chance of becoming president, for example, you might want to educate yourself.) The thread is about the various "identity" factors that would make an American presidential candidate more or less unelectable, how strong the bias is and whether it is likely to disappear any time soon.

QuoteFemale leaders I oppose though, just for international history. Tarja Halonen was okay I guess, but nothing important. Angela Merkel is a traitor and corruptant. Catherine killed and more than male leaders before him her, etc
I think that women cannot grasp nature of violence so well, so most leaders in history have been either too kind of incredibly cruel. But leading a country has always portion of violence-based decisions in it.

(wrong) (roll)

...aaand you contradict yourself within a few paragraphs. Now instead of looking at the individual strengths and qualifications of the candidate who happens to be a woman, you're focusing on the stereotype of "all women are like this".

BTW, all participants should tread carefully if they want to argue that "members of group X are not fit for office/to lead" in order to avoid breaking the forum rules, which will bring down appropriate moderator action. Derogatory language about particular groups will not be tolerated.

Ali

#23
Quote from: InCreator on Fri 25/05/2012 13:45:43
In everyday life, female bosses are the worst.
Name a successful, highly loved female leader who didn't sell out/oppress her peers or ended on a burning stake/prison/whatever?
Bollocks.

Firstly, if there had been an equal number of female leaders in history, then your challenge might make sense. As it is, history has only allowed a handful of women to wield power, so those women are likely to have been more ambitious, ruthless and manipulative than their male and female contemporaries. That says tells us nothing about women's ability to lead in general. If you apply the same logic to race, then black people definitely can't be leaders.

Secondly, I can't think of many male leaders who didn't sell out or oppress people, and most of the ones I like did end up getting lynched.

AGA

The UK has been ruled by countless women (prime minister and queens). Some were good, some were bad, just like their male equivalents.

Of course the issue here isn't whether 'minorities' (aren't there almost as many non WASP people in the US as white these days?) deserve to be elected leader, it's whether the current political system will actually allow them to.  Doesn't the US Congress at least have a small number of black, female, Latino (non old white man) members these days?

Snarky

Quote from: AGA on Fri 25/05/2012 14:04:17
The UK has been ruled by countless women (prime minister and queens)

Countless? There have been about six ruling queens of England and Great Britain (perhaps a few more who acted as regents for their underage sons): Mary, Elizabeth, Mary II, Anne, Victoria, and Elizabeth II, and exactly one female prime minister: Margaret Thatcher.

ThreeOhFour


Victor6

Quote from: InCreator on Fri 25/05/2012 13:45:43
In everyday life, female bosses are the worst.
Name a successful, highly loved female leader who didn't sell out/oppress her peers or ended on a burning stake/prison/whatever?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_I_of_England

Ali

She did oppress a few Catholics...

InCreator

#29
Quote from: Ali on Fri 25/05/2012 13:59:05

Firstly, if there had been an equal number of female leaders in history, then your challenge might make sense.

This I agree. Those women could aswell say -- we didn't create the country we rule -- It got handed over like this from previous male leader. And since countries generally improve, they can even show progress during their rule compared to last.

Well, I don't base my opinion from stereotype, but on what occured to me from history (on which I actually make my own stereotype :D).  Not read The Book of Absolute Truth yet, therefore not entirely sure if I'm right. But from few female leaders in history, from Cleopatra to British Queens, I feel like they can rule alright, but not a single rainbow and pot of gold more than from men, and wars have been likely even more bloody.

Ryan Timothy B

Quote from: InCreator on Fri 25/05/2012 13:45:43
In everyday life, based on past experience, female bosses are the worst.
Name a successful, highly loved female leader who didn't sell out/oppress her peers or ended on a burning stake/prison/whatever?
Oddly enough all my female bosses/supervisors weren't overly qualified for the job. They were all overly social - which is a terrible example to lead. Cried when things got stressful when there was no need to be stressed out (I've done the job myself and was completely relaxed the whole time). Or got unbelievably upset and angry when you didn't do something they wanted, when it was clear their way was wrong or less lucrative.

It doesn't mean all female leaders would fall into this category. I also haven't had a female boss I liked more than the male bosses I've had. But it's likely to do with male bonding and our genetics to feel that males are alpha - or our self taught prejudice.

I don't disagree with women in power. I'm only saying from my past experience I haven't had a female boss who seemed appropriate for the job. But yes, 3 female bosses over the 15 or more male bosses I've had isn't a fair example.

Eric

Quote from: AGA on Fri 25/05/2012 14:04:17Of course the issue here isn't whether 'minorities' (aren't there almost as many non WASP people in the US as white these days?) deserve to be elected leader, it's whether the current political system will actually allow them to.

This is the issue. Even after having elected a black president, we still wind up with $#!% like this:


Ryan Timothy B

Yep. That's some of the stickers I saw while I was visiting the states. A part of me wished I had bought a spray paint can and decorated their bumpers in a new color.

Andail

Come on, are we seriously debating whether women can be good leaders/bosses?
Good gravy.

AGA

Quote from: Snarky on Fri 25/05/2012 14:15:28
Quote from: AGA on Fri 25/05/2012 14:04:17
The UK has been ruled by countless women (prime minister and queens)

Countless? There have been about six ruling queens of England and Great Britain (perhaps a few more who acted as regents for their underage sons): Mary, Elizabeth, Mary II, Anne, Victoria, and Elizabeth II, and exactly one female prime minister: Margaret Thatcher.

Matilda and Jane Grey count, damnit!  You men, always trying to keep the ladies down.

WHAM

Well now we are sort of coming to one of the key points and major faults of why democracy has issues: the majority of people, and thus voters, are stupid and let unimportant details such as sexual preference, skin colour and amount of nose hair affect their decision of whether or not someone qualifies as a leader!

A different method of election is required, or we'll all see leaders worht our voters, and that will not look pretty. Look at the finnish parliament for example. We have had TV personalities, ex-boxing champions and ex-drug-addled ex-musicians and artists up there, doing precisely jack-shit, but hell, the majority voted for them so they get to wield power! :(
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: The Night Falls, a community roleplaying game

Victor6

Sounds like fair representation to me;- if 90% of people are morons, 90% of politicians should be also.
Back when I was a student, I tried to get myself a peerage (this was back when Smilin' Tony was banging on about having 'peoples peers' in the house of lords). I figured I'd represent the 'do nothing all day and smoke weed' demographic.

As Churchill said; democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.

veryweirdguy

Quote from: AGA on Tue 29/05/2012 13:44:21
Matilda and Jane Grey count, damnit!  You men, always trying to keep the ladies down.

I thought that said Jean Grey. Who would not be a good leader (see: attempting to kill everyone.)

Snarky

Quote from: AGA on Tue 29/05/2012 13:44:21
Quote from: Snarky on Fri 25/05/2012 14:15:28
Quote from: AGA on Fri 25/05/2012 14:04:17
The UK has been ruled by countless women (prime minister and queens)

Countless? There have been about six ruling queens of England and Great Britain (perhaps a few more who acted as regents for their underage sons): Mary, Elizabeth, Mary II, Anne, Victoria, and Elizabeth II, and exactly one female prime minister: Margaret Thatcher.

Matilda and Jane Grey count, damnit!  You men, always trying to keep the ladies down.

Maybe I was making a distinction between women who actually ruled and women who briefly held the title of Queen without having any real authority? (Of course, by that logic you could question whether Elizabeth II is in any meaningful sense ruler of the UK and Commonwealth.)

LimpingFish

Ireland almost had it's first openly-gay president last year. I voted for him.

We've also had two female presidents, but never had a female prime minister.
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