Laptop and OS advice?

[Ali]

Hi Guys,

I'm wondering if you can offer some advice on buying a laptop. My work is mostly video editing and animation - Avid, After Effects, Photoshop, so everyone I work with is on a mac. I want a laptop so I can be more flexible on freelance jobs, but I'd also like to work on AGS games while commuting. Which I would rule out mac (right?)

I'm not desperate to pay for or use a Windows OS, and not being able to read/write to mac-formatted drives is a real problem. So I was leaning towards something Linux-y, but would that rule out AGS and Adobe software?

Any advice would be helpful!

- Al

[Stee]

Well AGS at this present time (the editor at least) only runs on Windows. I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but I'm guessing you want to know what software works on both pc and macs? After Effects and Photoshop run on  Windows and OSX. I believe Avid is the same (assuming you mean the guys that do pro tools). Linux is pretty much a no go for big software unless you are willing to dig deep to see if there are any compatible alternatives as most large companies wont go near it. I noticed you didn't mention Final Cut, which is of course OSX only.

There is software to enable you to read/write mac-formatted drives in windows, but it causes more harm than good (its unreliable with data, which is not what you want with important files). You can always copy files over between both Mac and PC via FAT32 and exFAT formatted usb drives. FAT32 has a filesize limitation of 2gb (one individual file can not be bigger than this) exFAT has the same limitation as NTFS - ie more than you will ever need, and is supported in OSX Lion onwards.

video editing and animation has always been more of OSX's domain than Windows so you may be better buying a Macbook (which is unfortunately, ridiculously expensive). Those tools you mentioned however also run on windows and you would get a better bang for your buck hardware wise with a PC than a Mac.

Your 2 options are

PC Laptop with Windows - Using this method I would make use of a usb stick formatted to FAT32 / exFAT (possibly exFAT with video due to filesize) and copy work files to this when you need to switch machines.

Macbook / Macbook Pro - I'm not knowledgeable on Macs, but I'd assume a Macbook Pro would be needed for video editing. With this however, you could just use bootcamp and dualboot windows / osx. Alternatively if it's just for AGS you could possibly get away with a Virtual Machine.

I've intentionally avoided Linux as don't know that much about it and I have doubts that it will have the quality of software you are looking for. Maybe some Linux nerds can chip in?

Hope this helps!

[Anian]

There's this: http://store.apple.com/us/browse/guide/windows
And stuff like this: http://www.vmware.com/products/fusion/overview.html

Adobe suite runs on both OS and you can I think change between them files, no problem. Windows may have a cost, but Mac laptops are more expensive than other laptop brands. Check what software is essential for your work, but, no matter what Apple users say, it is mostly a matter of preference.
My impression is that Apple products to other laptops are like gaming consoles compared to PCs, they're really good for what they do because they sort of limit your options, so some things work with less problems, but if you're willing to invest some time in arranging things and don't mind adapting to stuff, then you can do far more stuff on PCs.

[DoorKnobHandle]

I worked for almost 2 years as a video editor for several film/tv production companies and I would strongly suggest to, as long as you're not dead set on working with Final Cut (there's no reason to be and you seem to be leaning towards Avid?), NOT pay extra for an apple product. I have to say that most of the video editing workstations I have ever used ran Avid Media Composer 5 on Windows 7 so I'm not really sure if that's a regional thing or why so many of your contacts apparently are on Mac systems. That's reserved for self-proclaimed 'media designers' here, ie. people that actually think Photoshop still runs better on a Mac in any way (which is not true - or maybe it makes them look better at Starbucks haha). Linux is a no go in the industry, my suggestion would be Avid Media Composer 5 on Windows 7 as I have used that the most and found it by far the best and most flexible setup. For reference, I have also worked with Avid Media Composer on Mac, Final Cut Pro on Mac and Premiere on both Windows and Mac. The 75 bucks for Win7 will be MUCH cheaper than the 'overhead' you pay for that magical apple logo.

Phew, I think I managed to write this without letting my... opinion on Mac users shine through too much, haven't I? :p I tried, I promise!

[Khris]

I installed MacDrive 8 some time ago, and it worked just fine with mac-formatted USB sticks and hard drives. I didn't copy huge amounts of data for weeks though, so I guess Stee has more experience in that regard.

If you have to be able to run Mac Apps, dual booting is very appealing, but that's not really an argument for buying a Mac. It might take some time and dedication but it's perfectly possible to dual boot a PC laptop into Mountain Lion and Win7 (google OSX86). I'd rather spend a few days on getting that to work than hundreds of extra euros just so that there's a glowing apple on my laptop.

Btw, the file size limit for FAT32 is 4GB, not 2GB.

Virtualization has become relatively fast; my boss has a high-end MacPro and Parallels, and running Office apps on Win7 is just as fast as natively. Again, mileage may vary with AGS and a quad-core Macbook.

[Stee]

I installed MacDrive 8 some time ago, and it worked just fine with mac-formatted USB sticks and hard drives. I didn't copy huge amounts of data for weeks though, so I guess Stee has more experience in that regard.

My exact experience wasn't lost data per se, but I found it occasionally broke my mac boot drive and I would have to load up the installer and repair permissions to get it running again, so I was more concerned about what else it would do (and I wasn't even touching files on the drive in a lot of cases).

If you have to be able to run Mac Apps, dual booting is very appealing, but that's not really an argument for buying a Mac. It might take some time and dedication but it's perfectly possible to dual boot a PC laptop into Mountain Lion and Win7 (google OSX86). I'd rather spend a few days on getting that to work than hundreds of extra euros just so that there's a glowing apple on my laptop.

I agree, I've played around quite a bit with osx86 but it is a lot of work and depending on how close to a macbook spec your laptop is / how well supported hardware in the laptop is depends on what level of success you will get running osx. If you want to go down this route you might be best shopping by "Golden Builds" as well as the other criteria. I didn't mention this because I didn't want to cause unnecessary confusion, particularly on something that is a legal grey area and something that in my experience can start getting really technical. I'm cheap, and I don't really use mac so I spent a lot of time tinkering as opposed to spending a lot of money.

Btw, the file size limit for FAT32 is 4GB, not 2GB.

Whoops, so it is. Still not ideal if you deal with uncompressed hd video

Just out of interest Ali, do you not have a laptop at all, even an old one?

[theSynapse]

Whilst you would get more 'bang for buck' in terms of pure grunt from a PC rather than a Mac, the joy of having a Mac is that you know that the software will run well because there aren't so many variations to be had (cf. PCs and laptops). I've got an old Mac that my wife uses and it still runs very well, despite being about 5 years old and running Mountain Lion.

If your everyday work is going to be made easier by having a Mac (and judging by your brief, this REALLY seems the case) I would just get a Mac, enjoy the pretty user experience that Apple products DO give you and just dual boot into Windows 7. It's a bit more expensive, but solves a lot of problems that you might encounter if you try running OSX off a PC (many which you may not know about at the start!) and at least you'll still be able to get Apple support for all that since it's an official feature.

Some guys off my games Masters course had MacBook Pros and dual booted to use programs they couldn't get on Mac with no problems at all. If it was me, I'd want to spend a little more money and go for the simple life.

[Anian]

That's reserved for self-proclaimed 'media designers' here, ie. people that actually think Photoshop still runs better on a Mac in any way (which is not true - or maybe it makes them look better at Starbucks haha).

Oh, but this could be more spot on. Since we don't have a Starbucks in the country when my friends and I went to Vienna, I took them to a SB shop and each table had an Apple product or two and the guys sitting next to us were in black cardings and something and they talked about which Mac is better and how they worked on it. 
Btw american coffee is crap, come to south Europe for some real italian, turkish or austrian style coffee.

[Ali]

Thank you for many replies. As I feared, things aren't going to be easy and cheap!

I've always used Avid. I have nothing against old FCP, but FCP 10 is appallingly badly designed. It seems to have been inspired by Windows Movie Maker. The problem I have with FAT32 is all my friends have OLD macs. So while they can read but not write to my NTFS drives, they can't use FAT32 at all...

I'm sure I should balance this out by asking on a more apple-oriented forum. If I can afford it, I may go for a dual-boot mac. More realistically, I will probably put wheels on my PC and drag it after me with a piece of string.

Thanks again!

[MUFFINinc]

The 75 bucks for Win7 will be MUCH cheaper than the 'overhead' you pay for that magical apple logo.

Phew, I think I managed to write this without letting my... opinion on Mac users shine through too much, haven't I? :p I tried, I promise!

Oh dear, Mac-haters and their incessant butthurt.

At this point in time, there's actually very little difference between the two systems, to be perfectly honest; it just comes down to preference.  I grew up in a family that primarily used Macs during the '90s, back when there actually were significant differences between the two systems; Mac was vastly superior for graphics, video, etc., PC was better for programming and games.  I took a lot of flack from other nerds at my high school for my computer system, and developed a bit of a chip on my shoulder.  I was pretty much death on Microsoft for a while, but I'm like 30 now, the computer world has moved on, and I am happy to say that I'm over it.

Nowadays, despite all of the constant back and forth between Microsoft and Apple and their respective users, the truth is that the vast majority of software has both Mac and Windows versions available, and those that are platform-specific usually have a competitor for the opposite system, and the two tend to be pretty much interchangeable.  I, personally, prefer the Mac user environment and the aesthetics of the machine, but that's me.  With modern Intel Macs, you can install both the Mac OS and Windows on the same machine, and for your situation I think that would work just fine, especially considering that it sounds like most of the people you work with use Mac, and you mostly just need Windows for AGS and maybe a few other things.  I, personally, have a desktop Mac that I consider to be my primary machine, and a laptop running Windows 7 that I use for AGS and a few other things.  Flash drives tend to work just fine dual platform; I've never had any difficulty transferring files back and forth between the two machines, so I'm not sure I understand what the drive formatting issue is.  I even keep copies of my AGS games stored on my Mac, even though it can't actually open them, just so the data is backed up.

Anyway, the only real issue to take into consideration is cost and preference.  Mac is considerably more expensive, but its your money if you want to spend it.  I, personally, am willing to spend the extra money for Apple products and tend to be glad that I have, but that's me.  There's really not that much of a difference in terms of performance or quality.  If you look at it this way, there's no pragmatic reason to buy a Cadillac when a Corolla will get you where you need to go; it just depends on how much you want to spend on aesthetics.

[Peder 🚀]

More realistically, I will probably put wheels on my PC and drag it after me with a piece of string.

That would make a hilarious puzzle in an adventure game!

[TheBitPriest]

For the past decade or so I've operated with the philosophy that computing hardware is a line item in my yearly personal budget.  I was buying computers for around $400 - $500 dollars, and simply planned to "dispose" of them in two years.  I should add that I adopted this philosophy after two events.  1)  My friend spent around $3000 building a dual Pentium machine (that's right, just Pentium.. not Pentium II, III, IV, Duo, etc.)  He charged it on his credit card.  He was still making payments on it when that machine had long been scrap metal.  2) I bought a $3000 Sony laptop with every major bell and whistle.  It physically fell apart within a five years, and of course, it was dated after one or two.   Foolish. 

But then...   

When I was in the market for a laptop this last time, I went to the Dell outlet, typed my specifications into the search (price, discrete graphics card, back-lit keyboard) up popped an Alienware M17x.  I had never considered buying one before.  They are out of my "buy cheap, buy often" price range.  Plus, they are marketed to "gamerz."  I like AGS games.  But this one was discounted because it was "scratch and dent."   

Best. Laptop. Ever. 

As long as I'm using PC's, I'll be using an Alienware laptop.  I would even dare to say that they are worth the original price that they charge.  I still wouldn't buy all the bells and whistles -- waste of money.  Nevertheless, I can't even begin to sing its praises; my song would not do it justice. 

It's a tank -- sure.. it's made a metal -- but I use my laptop as a mobile dev station, not an ultra portable.  But it's not going to fall apart anytime soon.  My last laptop's charging port broke in a heinous way.  This one even has a heavy duty charging port.  If I really wanted an ultra portable, I'd get a pad of some sort.   

I dual boot Linux and Windows (until recently, my preference for Linux is what kept me away from working with AGS).  Windows is pre-installed.  So, I really only "added" Linux.   Since MacOS is Free BSD with pretty graphics (and more commercial software support, but as the poster above noted, that's why you keep your Windows partition around), and since FreeBSD really wishes it were Linux (flame activated!  )  I consider this setup to be the best of all worlds.  The only reason I might choose to emulate MacOS on my Linux side would be to play with iOS development, which I have seen people muddle with in Linux anyway (never tried it though...)

So that's my two cents.   Apple seems to catch one in an endless web of DRM.  If they were IBM or Microsoft, both slapped down by the US Dept. of Just., they would already be suffering for having such a locked-down system.  Seriously:  Microsoft was hurt by Antitrust for including their own browser, Apple makes the hardware, the software, and even locks down the content with DRM.  But that's not my battle, really.  No intention to argue about that....  merely to sing the praises of what I think is an under-marketed, miracle-machine. 

   

[DoorKnobHandle]

The 75 bucks for Win7 will be MUCH cheaper than the 'overhead' you pay for that magical apple logo.

Phew, I think I managed to write this without letting my... opinion on Mac users shine through too much, haven't I? :p I tried, I promise!

Oh dear, Mac-haters and their incessant butthurt.

What? What I said is exactly what you said yourself in that same post. There is no benefit to using a Mac over a Windows PC these days and all you're doing is paying a lot of cash extra. Let's not turn this into a big Apple vs. PC argument-kinda-thread though, I hardly think that's in Ali's interest!

[TheBitPriest]

    Agreed.   No Mac-hate intended by my post either!  I was just explaining my philosophy, which has excluded Mac.  They don't fit neatly into the "buy cheap, buy often" plan.  In a few years, I may find that this Alienware is running like a champ, and that it's so far past its prime that I'm  setting it in precarious places in order to find an excuse to upgrade and go Mac  . 

When people ask Mac or PC, I point to Apple's very closed system, and then I mention that third option: PC-Linux/Windows.   It is even possible (although slightly dangerous) to use Vmware to boot the physical Windows partition that came from the manufacturer. 

I could easily see myself going Mac one day for my desktop with Windows in an emulator and Linux exclusively on my PCs.   I prefer the Unix environment for development, and for my "money" (literally!) Mac doesn't offer anything more than Linux in that area.  Some like Apple for the "coolness" or the consistent quality of hardware.  I've been using computers long enough to remember that it's not actually cool!

Bottom line:  Try this link if you're going to stay PC (now the link says "us" -- I'm not sure if the Dell Outlet is international -- you'll have to tell me that).  Don't let the initial $1400 sticker-shock turn you away.  Keep going back.  The inventory rotates and the prices vary greatly.  Also check out the Latitude and Precision workstations as they may have the same production quality as the Alienware without the gamer marketing and glitz.  All of them are more equipped, with more options for less expense, than anything Apple makes (does Apple even make a laptop with a screen larger than 15" any longer!?  I can't even find one on their site...  I don't know... that might be a show-stopper for me).  But... a Dell is not a Dell.  Don't get one of the "home user" Inspirons, XPS, etc.  Unless you are a very gentile, immobile user they will become paperweights.  They just don't have the same production value (unless you want to go "buy cheap, buy often" but Dell "ain't cheap"). 

But hey... no Apple hate.  Apple!  Yippie!     I might be using one myself one day!  Maybe "they" will come and make us .

[Snarky]

There is no benefit to using a Mac over a Windows PC these days and all you're doing is paying a lot of cash extra.

Well, there is a benefit if you're often in the situation where you need to plug in a Mac-formatted hard drive to read and write a bunch of files, as Ali described. Building your own MacOS PC sounds like a lot more hassle than it would be worth to me (and significant risk of driver problems etc., I would imagine), but YMMV depending on your financial situation.

If you're going to be using it professionally, I think anything that makes your job easier is worth paying a little bit extra for, even if that's just whatever OS you're most familiar with, or that your clients are more comfortable with. It's foolish to try to save a few bob if it means you're going to be spending ten minutes futzing around with converting files or whatever every few days. (In my line of work there are a lot of slide presentations, and the amount of time wasted because someone forgot the converter to plug their Mac into the projector is ridiculous.)

[DoorKnobHandle]

There is no benefit to using a Mac over a Windows PC these days and all you're doing is paying a lot of cash extra.

Well, there is a benefit if you're often in the situation where you need to plug in a Mac-formatted hard drive to read and write a bunch of files, as Ali described.

As has been pointed out by Khris, MacDrive is inexpensive and works fine (source: http://community.avid.com/forums/p/91528/521839.aspx#521839 - interesting thread for Ali too!) so it's not much of a benefit I don't think. Also I wouldn't necessarily suggest adapting to your current contacts when it's usually very common for your clients to change frequently when it comes to video editing (in a year most people might be using PCs instead of Macs and you're SOL and you payed extra), but I obviously don't know how much a factor that is in Ali's situation.

[Snarky]

As has been pointed out by Khris, MacDrive is inexpensive and works fine (source: http://community.avid.com/forums/p/91528/521839.aspx#521839 - interesting thread for Ali too!) so it's not much of a benefit I don't think.

According to Stee it has problems. If there's any truth to that (or just a widespread belief in it), would you want to get blamed for eating all a client or colleague's files?

Also I wouldn't necessarily suggest adapting to your current contacts when it's usually very common for your clients to change frequently when it comes to video editing (in a year most people might be using PCs instead of Macs and you're SOL and you payed extra), but I obviously don't know how much a factor that is in Ali's situation.

That doesn't sound all that plausible to me, but I guess it depends on who you work with, and Ali knows that better than either of us, I'm sure.

[SSH]

There are legal ways to run Linux and Windows on a Mac if yo uneed to, but no legal way to run MacOS on anything not made by Apple. But then you pay double for the Mac. My only general piece of advice: get twice as much memory as you think you'll need, whatever you go for.

[MUFFINinc]

The 75 bucks for Win7 will be MUCH cheaper than the 'overhead' you pay for that magical apple logo.

Phew, I think I managed to write this without letting my... opinion on Mac users shine through too much, haven't I? :p I tried, I promise!

Oh dear, Mac-haters and their incessant butthurt.

What? What I said is exactly what you said yourself in that same post. There is no benefit to using a Mac over a Windows PC these days and all you're doing is paying a lot of cash extra. Let's not turn this into a big Apple vs. PC argument-kinda-thread though, I hardly think that's in Ali's interest!

You're right, I'm sorry.  I have a tendency  to start typing on one thought and finish on another, and I guess in the end we were basically saying the same thing

[johnno56]

I do not envy your choices. I too went through the "which OS to use?". I am biased. I am a Linux user. Unless you are a C++ developer and can compile AGS Editor to run on Linux, then DO NOT choose Linux. Mac's are great as well. Not too sure if AGS will run. Looks like Windows!

A word of advice: You had mentioned that your work involves video / image editing etc. Please do not allow your friends to determine or influence your choice. The PC / Laptop is YOUR workhorse. Ultimately, YOU will be the one using it the most, not you friends. That being said, peer pressure is a hard road to travel.

Video editing requires grunt and memory. Choose a machine with lots of both...  However, this could be a problem, if you are restricted by a budget.

As I said before, I do not envy your choices.

J

ps: Visit your local PC/Laptop guru and let them know what you need a machine to do, and let them advise you as to the type of machine and OS.