Commercial AGS Boot Camp - 5 common issues

[Ali]

Something really needs to exist to help patch AGS games, EXE files in particular - because replacing an entire game (re-distributing a large game to many people for example) is just clunky and not great for (small) commercial enterprises.

I don't know if it's practical for a commercial release, but I've used Clickteam's Patch Maker with AGS. Of course, it breaks save games, but the patch worked.

For me Im a bit worried about the "no sierra-style interface". I really like that interface, and really hate the 2-click one. I find it a lot more satisifying personally to be able to choose different kinds of interactions instead of 1 click for move and one for all interactions.

This might be off topic, but I think the Sierra interface is a really terrible idea, and it excludes all but the most committed nostalgia-phile. I think Vince Twelve's "Why your Game is Broken" article from a few years ago was the best case against it. Imagine an operating system, he suggested, which required you to 'Listen' to sound files 'Look' at photos and 'Read' documents, rather than just double-clicking on each of them. It would baffle and enrage people.

I was depressed to find playthroughs of Nelly Cootalot: Spoonbeaks Ahoy! (as well as several comments across the web) in which people can't get the game working because they don't understand the verb-coin interface. It was an embarrassing reminder that times have moved on...

[m0ds]

Something really needs to exist to help patch AGS games, EXE files in particular - because replacing an entire game (re-distributing a large game to many people for example) is just clunky and not great for (small) commercial enterprises.

I don't know if it's practical for a commercial release, but I've used Clickteam's Patch Maker with AGS. Of course, it breaks save games, but the patch worked.

Now *that's* useful! Going to give it a shot. Thank you

[Dave Gilbert]

The weird thing with patchmakers is that since AGS bundles the whole game into one big EXE, the patch-file is only negligibly smaller than the full game itself! Although if you are using VO files than it's definitely worthwhile.

[Dave Gilbert]

This has been my week so far. Yesterday I located your "switch to high performance" solve for laptops, but is there a specific resolve for Win 7 games freezing up on a desktop machine (for a game that does not have the option to switch between directdraw & direct3d in winsetup).

Sadly, nope! The high performance trick only works about a third of the time with laptops. For desktops, I have no idea. There are lots of possible solutions and some of them might work for a specific customer, but it's a really long and tedious process to troubleshoot each one. As I am sure you are discovering! Like I said, it's much easier in the long run to create a game that doesn't need to run in DirectDraw in the first place. This is why I avoid plugins like the plague!

Re: Downfall, so you've probably had some of these questions over time too Dave?

Downfall was created with an older version of the engine that CAN'T switch to Direct3D. It would have to be recompiled with the latest version of the engine and tested to make sure it works properly in that mode.

It's still pretty important (and a sad fact about AGS IMO) that it's necessary to get everything right before release. If you distribute with game breaking errors, or can't add something on easily enough in the future, you're going to gain some wrinkles soon enough... Something really needs to exist to help patch AGS games, EXE files in particular - because replacing an entire game (re-distributing a large game to many people for example) is just clunky and not great for (small) commercial enterprises. Yet customers expect it because they've seen gigantic VG corporations do it. Mind you I know nothing of the 'patching' world and quite how those things actually work. All I know is that I'm faced with logistical nightmares because there is no known way of patching a game at this point. And when a game needs to be fixed and is available across multiple stores...well, may as well just get the shotgun out now TBH

Patching is a royal PITA, if only because it breaks save games. And if your game is on Steam, it's even a bigger pain. You upload a patch and it automatically updates everybody's game, whether they want it or not. All your players will wake up that morning and discover that their savegames no longer work, and you will spend several days fielding complaints.  You will need to create new savegames for them and give them the link - another royal PITA. So my best advice is to only upload a patch when it's REALLY worth it - e.g., just before a major sale or promotion. Definitely don't do it AFTER!

For me Im a bit worried about the "no sierra-style interface". I really like that interface, and really hate the 2-click one. I find it a lot more satisifying personally to be able to choose different kinds of interactions instead of 1 click for move and one for all interactions.

Is your game freeware or commercial? If it's freeware, who cares? If it's commercial, you might want to think about streamlining it.

[Trapezoid]

This might be off topic, but I think the Sierra interface is a really terrible idea, and it excludes all but the most committed nostalgia-phile. I think Vince Twelve's "Why your Game is Broken" article from a few years ago was the best case against it. Imagine an operating system, he suggested, which required you to 'Listen' to sound files 'Look' at photos and 'Read' documents, rather than just double-clicking on each of them. It would baffle and enrage people.

Imagine an operating system with no context menus.

[Trapezoid]

And AGS's graphics driver issues need to be fixed, badly. When DirectDraw works, it works like a proper low-res game should. It does not do this:

(If HTML5 can display 256 color in your browser, why can't AGS in a window?)

And this pixel-size incongruity:

There MUST be a fix for that. Shouldn't it simply be rendering a 320x200 screen and displaying it at 2x/3x?

[Dave Gilbert]

The issue with that screenshot is that Ed is scaled down, and in Direct3D mode it tends to smooth out the edges. In other locations where he is full-sized he would be displayed completely fine. It's hard to notice the smoothing in that image, at least for most people. It's REALLY noticeable when the characters are scaled down a lot, but most of the time it's hard to notice unless you are a big pixel art purist, which it appears you are!

I do "get" why most people prefer DirectDraw, but with AGS the way it is now it can only be Direct3D for practical commercial purposes. Unless you don't mind losing around 1/3 of your sales.

[Trapezoid]

I wonder if you could make an autohotkey launch program which runs the game, detects if there's a "no DirectDraw" error, changes the config file, and tries running the game again.

Edit: Maybe not, since you say the game will run, just with horrible bugs. Hmm.

[Dave Gilbert]

Yeah, the game runs but not much else.

You can read the whole DirectDraw saga (the discovery of the issue, and our crazy attempts to solve it) over on the WEG forum.

[DazJ]

It's all very well with people saying create your game in Direct3D if it's commercial, but when there's so many glitches with walkbehinds/tinting, it's simply not a viable option. Why is there issues with the Direct3D walkbehinds/tinting?

[Dave Gilbert]

Why is there issues with the Direct3D walkbehinds/tinting?

Short answer: Because AGS.

Longer answer: Computers and hardware change, and AGS hasn't really kept up. I love using it, and it gets so many things right. But what it gets "wrong" is sometimes so aggravating that I'm tempted to switch to another engine.

There's a thread over on the Tech forum about this issue, which explains why the walkbehind issue happens and how to avoid it: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=48907.0

As for tinting, what problems are you having there? Sadly there are some DirectDraw features that Direct3D just can't do.

[cat]

My sister could not play some of the bakesale games because her old laptop didn't support Direct3D
So probably it would be a good idea to support both modes...

[DazJ]

As for tinting, what problems are you having there? Sadly there are some DirectDraw features that Direct3D just can't do.

I'm primarily referring to region light levels, not tinting (my fault - I always confuse the two) - The light levels simply don't work in Direct3D but work flawlessly in DirectDraw.

[Dave Gilbert]

My sister could not play some of the bakesale games because her old laptop didn't support Direct3D
So probably it would be a good idea to support both modes...

I used to have this problem too! Older computers don't support Direct3D, while newer ones don't support DirectDraw. But the older ones are getting fewer and less relevant. And while a Direct3D game can be switched to DirectDraw mode with relatively few problems (assuming the computer can run DirectDraw), the reverse is rarely true. It's impossible to create a game that uses DirectDraw features which can also be run in Direct3D, so if you just focus on Direct3D you should be (theoretically!) fine.

I'm primarily referring to region light levels, not tinting (my fault - I always confuse the two) - The light levels simply don't work in Direct3D but work flawlessly in DirectDraw.

Really? I use region light levels all the time as well! Now I'm really confused.

[DazJ]

Really? I use region light levels all the time as well! Now I'm really confused.

Exactly, it's odd. This is why I'm wondering if it's down to hardware. We'll know for sure tomorrow because I'm conveniently expecting a graphics card being delivered so we'll have a better idea.

[StillInThe90s]

Would a launcher window with simplified setup help some of the user end driver-confusion? Something like big start buttons saying "run with direct3d" and "run with direcrdraw". Or would that only make things worse? I think Trapezoid made some little ahk script that wrote its own ags config file. Right?

Is the plugin issue a plugin-only thing or should we have second thoughts about modules as well? I tested helios123's rain/snow module in D3D just now and it seemed ok...

[Dave Gilbert]

The problem with that is that the average user will have no idea what DirectDraw even IS. When I first started having issues with DirectDraw and called tech support, even THEY were surprised I was still using it. They even recommended I use dosbox.

[Shane 'ProgZmax' Stevens]

This is actually really good advice, Dave, particularly the issue with resolutions.  You've just convinced me not to make another game in 3:4 aspect ratio.  I had a feeling widescreen was so accessible now that gaming warehouses like steam were actually culling the herd based on resolution, though it's obvious some games still slip through Greenlight (I'm pretty sure Hammerwatch uses a 3:4 aspect ratio with resizing).

    Something really needs to exist to help patch AGS games, EXE files in particular - because replacing an entire game (re-distributing a large game to many people for example) is just clunky and not great for (small) commercial enterprises.

I would list this as the single greatest flaw in ags; the lack of any kind of pre-conceived patch system in the engine for people having to fix bugs post-release.  To fix this would take considerable work, not the least of which would be going through the entire savegame code and rewriting large sections of it, which probably isn't very likely and would break compatibility with earlier ags builds.  AGS is a lovely engine for personal labors of love but at this point, in my honest opinion I just wouldn't use it for a commercial release.  I've personally seen some of the angst Dave's had to endure with each game and each specific problem that was just a result of some ags legacy issue that goes unresolved and more often it happens the less your fanbase is going to tolerate excuses.  In the end you are better off finding an engine you can license (and request patches and improvements to) that is being officially developed if you want to make a commercial product.  Yes, it costs money but you often have to spend money to make money. 

[Crimson Wizard]

I would list this as the single greatest flaw in ags; the lack of any kind of pre-conceived patch system in the engine for people having to fix bugs post-release.  To fix this would take considerable work, not the least of which would be going through the entire savegame code and rewriting large sections of it, which probably isn't very likely and would break compatibility with earlier ags builds.

Hmm, I already rewrote savegame code from scratch for 3.4.0 alpha build . The old savegame format had data loaded in an order that prevented correct initialization of unlimited number of items in the rooms... so I had to do this. The compatibility with savegames made by older ags builds is important only for minor versions of the engine (updates), in my opinion. For instance, 3.2.1 could only read savegames down to 3.1.something, IIRC.

[Snarky]

In the end you are better off finding an engine you can license (and request patches and improvements to) that is being officially developed if you want to make a commercial product.  Yes, it costs money but you often have to spend money to make money.

Or find someone you can hire to fix the specific issues with AGS!