Anyone any experience with Form W-8BEN please? SOLVED

Started by , Mon 09/09/2013 22:58:28

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m0ds

Part of the Steam application, something about tax with-holding, I don't know - they really don't explain it very well to the US tax law layman (ie someone from anywhere that isn't the USA). There is also no help from Steam/Valve, they pretty much just say "Go fill this out, have fun!". I will go get some financial advice if necessary later in the week but thought I'd ask here first:

Form W-8BEN is this: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw8ben.pdf

I have also read the instructions here: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw8ben.pdf

The only part I don't understand is this - do I, as a UK citizen, simply provide my National insurance number under Part 1 - line 7, or are they suggesting I actually apply for an American "TIN" (Tax identity number or such) (Part 1 - line 6). Line 6 says "if required, follow instructions". The instructions for Part 1 line 6 and 7 aren't very clear to me.

To me, it seems like I should ignore Part 1 line 6 and simply fill in my UK taxpayer code (National Insurance number) in Part 1 line 7. Does that seem the right thing to do?

My head hurts. Anyone who may have had the thrilling luck to fill out one of these forms before please let me know.

Any hints or suggestions much welcomed, thank you :)

I would ask Dave, but he's American so probably never had to fill out this form. I would ask Phoenix Online who recently got Greenlit but they are American to so probably didn't need to fill it out. I will try & ask Valve but meh. So perhaps someone else knows something? Perhaps an American understands the wording in the form/instructions a little better than I do.

I'd imagine any non-US citizen will have to go through the same process if you distribute with Steam so perhaps this can serve as an early warning if not much else - know your W-8BEN ;)

Stupot

I also have to fill out this form when I want to claim money earned through Gengo (online translation service). I haven't done it yet because I want to earn some more before claiming my first payout. But I have looked at the form, and I came to the same conclusion that I didn't need to provide a SSN or TIN number because I'm not claiming any exemptions or benefits or anything, so when I do fill in my W-8BEN I will probably just put my UK National Insurance Number in line 7.

In short, I'm no wiser than you, but I think your're right about not needing to fill in part 6 :-)

m0ds

Thanks Stu. Well that still helps me knowing your intention at least :)

I'm glad, cos line 6 would mean "applying" for one of those things and that could take a couple of months. But yeah, it makes no sense to me for say me or you as UK people to "apply" or get a US tax identifying number, as far as I can tell that's only necessary if you're a US citizen (abroad, perhaps) but the instructions and form don't really make it that clear (to me).

Calin Leafshade

I recommend you speak with Rachael Presser.

I believe she's on here as FamousAdventurer7 or something like that. She is the tax lady for Himalaya Studios and knows her stuff.

SSH

I've had to do these in the past when I worked for a company that gave me US stock. Of course, now I'm a resident of US, I do W-9  form instead.

I think, if you want the income to be paid without US tax then you need to get a TIN. Otherwise, you could get it paid with 30% tax withheld and then try and claim that of your UK taxes, if you do a UK tax return.

Of course, if you do get it without the US taxes, then you need to declare it on a UK tax return instead and pay tax in the UK.
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SSH

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m0ds

Ok thanks Andrew that does explain the "missing link" a bit to me, them paying the taxes vs me declaring it on my tax return/me paying the taxes.

Though it sounds like getting a TIN will just make things more time consuming & complicated for me, as I have to then work out the taxes I owe and such for my tax return? (Though it may be simpler to do this than it is thinking about it ;) the UK tax return form isn't too baffling)

And thanks Calin, I may do.

Thanks for the input!

Dave Gilbert

Ben and Dan of Size Five Games ("Time Gentlemen Please" etc) are from the UK and have games on Stean, so if anyone knows it would be them.

Ben X

I don't touch that stuff, I just co-designed the damn things! Dan might know but I don't think he's on these forums very regularly at the moment, so you'd have to hunt him down through the other usual avenues.

m0ds

No problem, thank you Ben & Dave. After reading the links and such I think now I should apply for an ITIN before submitting the W8-BEN to Steam. No ITIN (you can get one with this form) will mean they will keep 30% of the money owed to you, and then no idea what you'd have to go through to try and claim that back. Thanks for your help :)


m0ds

#10
The next issue is how to certify a copy of passport for the IRS (to complete form W-7)...oh dear. More joy (wtf)

Looks like I'll need to send my actual passport, or pop by the US Embassy in London...haha

http://xboxforums.create.msdn.com/forums/p/65014/398148.aspx
and
https://www.createspace.com/en/community/thread/19868?start=15start=0


Ali

I don't know if this is relevant, but a UK-based friend had the same issue publishing through iTunes. Instead of getting an ITIN (for an individual) he got an EIN (for an entity) which was much faster and only required him to make a couple of calls to the IRS. He followed this (not-written-by-an-expert) guide:

http://catherineryanhoward.com/2012/02/24/non-us-self-publisher-tax-issues-dont-need-to-be-taxing/

On the other hand, let me know when you're coming to London and lets get a drink?

m0ds

Haha thanks man! I just saw one of those forum threads mention going the EIN route too. That sounds like a much better option, thank you. But yes if all else fails it's off to the US Embassy in London, which really is about the only other way to do it other than mailing actual passport off to Austin, Texas - and I'll give you a call (laugh) Thanks for the article. It's okay... just taking tips and making my own mistakes ;)

Nikolas

This is the reason I never registered to ASCAP or BMI! It was too awful to do these things, over snail mail! Instead I went for STIM (all these are royatlies organizations...).

Hang in there Mark... You'll get it done eventually... and when you do you'll be there to answer my questions! :=

m0ds

I see. It seems like a good idea to do it rather than try and scramble the money back in the future from tax agencies. If the IRS ever answer the *phone* I might be able to bring *you* an answer...haha! I am taking what is defined as the "simplest route" to getting an EIN. Thanks though Nikolas :)

FamousAdventurer77

I am an Enrolled Agent who has extensive experience with tax treaties (particularly US-UK, US-Australia, and US-Israel.) And yes, I'm Himalaya's CFO so I'm used to dealing with this stuff regularly.

I'd be happy to help you out with your tax issue and getting an ITIN. I can tell you from almost a decade of experience with ITIN Ops that you will NOT get an answer calling them; ITIN Ops doesn't even pick up anymore at the non-public phone number that only representatives like EAs, CPAs, and tax attorneys can use. And now that we've had a federal shutdown? Cue all of my colleagues freaking out because they now can't get ahold of ANYONE. It used to be that there'd just be a really long wait for that particular branch but you'd eventually get someone, but now that's just a myth after all the budget cuts.

Just some thoughts about getting an EIN vs. an ITIN, do you plan on starting a business entity in the US like an LLC, sole proprietorship, or corporation? Because that's what an EIN is for, and you could end up getting into a ton of administrative burden that comes with having an entity in general, not to mention that you'd be considered a foreign officer. It's still an option, but definitely something worth thinking about.

And stupidly, you can't just file for an ITIN without showing some US-sourced income first (ie, filing a 1040NR tax return with it.) Logic would dictate you should be able to file for one without it. But you can't, or else you'll be wasting a lot of time and money getting the app sent back and forth. I always wanted to find the bright bag of falling hammers who made this rule; I'm pretty sure it was all a conspiracy to keep certain firms' billings high.

Meantime, feel free to PM me as I'd be happy to help out an AGS mainstay.
If you want to know the Bible's contents, just watch Lord of the Rings or listen to the last 8 Blind Guardian albums. It's pretty much the same thing.

m0ds

#16
Thank you. But the SS-4 form (for EIN), with its update from Feb 2013 (I think) takes into account foreign sole proprietorship and seems to note that you don't intend to start any business in the USA, present or future. The form is updated beyond the information page, meaning, it seems they've added a couple of checkboxes to the form but they haven't got round to explaining them in the information.

As for ITIN, I would have to travel to London to do that, it does not seem to be possible to do via forms, phone or fax, because they need to see a passport for it, and the verification method they ask for (if you were to post it) does not EXIST in the UK. We only have a Post Office confirmation method which the ITIN folks do not accept. And the passport issuer does not create copies or such for such purposes, it would seem.

So really, EIN is the way to go for us. If you see Ali's link above, then presumably ALL those e-book sellers from foreign countries are now "foreign officers". Anyway yes you are right, the US Gov shutdown has "shutdown" my efforts to get an EIN in the meantime. But thanks for the info there :)

As far as I can tell there is only two ways to proceed, get the EIN via phone or go to the US embassy in London and get an ITIN. For me, in the UK, there really don't seem to be any other options, other than to proceed without either and let the IRS keep 30% of our profits. Noooo way José!

FamousAdventurer77

Hmm, I'll have to take a look once the shutdown is over-- the SS-4 form hadn't been updated in forever and a vast majority of tax pros don't even use it anymore because getting an EIN for a client is done in a snap these days (it's the one thing the IRS actually did right!) If they've now started to take that into account, it would definitely save the digital publishing world a LOT of headaches and costs.

ITINs are still necessary for other situations, such as if you plan on holding a bank account in the US or some employers may require it even if you're on a contract basis. In the event you'd still need to obtain one, you'd need to get an apostille from the US embassy, which has to get submitted to the IRS with a completed W-7 and a tax return. I've taken care of a lot of ITIN apps by mail this way, but the catch is the tax return part: even if you just file a blank 1040NR, it'll get returned.

I firmly believe that process was rigged by firms with heavy international clientele who just wanted more consultation fees. Logic would dictate you could still apply for an ITIN if you're just *anticipating* US-sourced income by showing some proof of it, but the payer already has to start withholding 30% of your income at the default rate, *then* you file a tax return with the W-7 and apostille to get the money back.

The foreign sole proprietor election probably wouldn't work for certain activities (like the banking one), but it looks like it could be a viable solution for royalty income (opposed to personal services.)
If you want to know the Bible's contents, just watch Lord of the Rings or listen to the last 8 Blind Guardian albums. It's pretty much the same thing.

m0ds

#18
Just thought I'd say, the EIN came in the post today, hooray!

The winning process: Scan SS-4 into a JPEG. Sign up to "efax" one month free trial and fax it over to them. Wait. Get EIN in post 2-3 weeks later. Cancel free trial with efax ;)

So now I'm at the Steamworks part and...oh...my...gerrd. Could it be any more confusing? Quite how they expect anyone other than an expert programmer to understand any of it I don't know. Headache :(

^ That said monkey_05_06 is going to kindly help us out.

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