Copyright issues and changing game accordingly

Nightfable · Thu 28/01/2016 18:09:38

Hi guys. I've been working on a KQ4 remake that I'm sure you've already seen posted on the Game In Productions forums.

I'm avoiding continuing because of copyrights with Activision. We all know they've been shutting fan games down and there really is no point to working on something that could send my ass to court. I've been thinking it over in my head all day yesterday. Since I have already made a few walk-cycles of Rosella and some backgrounds -- what if I alter them, change the story and character names? Could I then evade a lawsuit? How much would I need to alter, exactly?

I've been brainstorming ideas about a new story similar to the style used in King's Quest. There are plenty of fairy tales out there to motivate and inspire.

As you can see in the image below, I've drawn an evil sorcerer about to kill the main character. I've also been altering certain aspects of my backgrounds. I'm posting here because I really don't know what the hell I'm supposed to do. I've poured many hours of work into my graphics and there must be an answer somewhere.

Thanks. $:-\$

Slasher · Thu 28/01/2016 18:52:57

This area of game design in very sensitive.

Sometimes you can ask the developer for permission and they may / may not grant it.

Usually if its not for profit it may be ok but still ask.

You could make alterations that deter from the originals.

There are a number of games here that basically copy the originals.

But why not be original with your own similar backgrounds and characters etc?

You can only ask...

Snarky · Thu 28/01/2016 19:35:49

Only you can decide what to do. Making a fan remake isn't something you do for profit, obviously, so you have to search your motivations and figure out which direction they point you in. If it's not a remake, it can be anything you want! (And not necessarily a KQ-clone...) If the issue is just that you want to make a game using (as far as possible) the graphics you've drawn, I think in that in practice you can get away with pretty much anything. A non-KQ branded game with an original story and setting, using backgrounds and sprites you've drawn merely based on KQ4... I don't think Activision would care. (And that's the thing you have to worry about. It doesn't really matter what a court would say, because you never want to fight it in court anyway. The only thing that matters is whether they'd feel like sending you a cease&desist order.)

However, I would like to point out...

Quote from: Nightfable on Thu 28/01/2016 18:09:38
I'm avoiding continuing because of copyrights with Activision. We all know they've been shutting fan games down and there really is no point to working on something that could send my ass to court.

Do we all know that? AFAIK, none of the other King's Quest fan remakes have been shut down, nor have any of the QFG, SQ, LSL etc. remakes and fan games, that I can tell. Perhaps the Odd Gentlemen relaunch of the series changes that, but is there any reason to think so? Googling, the only example of Activision shutting down a fan-adventure I find is The Silver Lining back in 2010, and that was a pretty different situation.

Nightfable · Thu 28/01/2016 21:13:32

Quote from: Snarky on Thu 28/01/2016 19:35:49
A non-KQ branded game with an original story and setting, using backgrounds and sprites you've drawn merely based on KQ4... I don't think Activision would care. (And that's the thing you have to worry about. It doesn't really matter what a court would say, because you never want to fight it in court anyway. The only thing that matters is whether they'd feel like sending you a cease&desist order.)

Thanks Snarky!

I'll go in that direction, I believe. I may be wrong but wasn't the reason Kingdom of Sorrow changed into Order of the Thorne because of Activision? That's what I heard.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice!

(I made a song to go with my wizard > https://soundcloud.com/audrey-lavergne-ryan/arrival

)

Snarky · Thu 28/01/2016 21:30:36

Quote from: Nightfable on Thu 28/01/2016 21:13:32I may be wrong but wasn't the reason Kingdom of Sorrow changed into Order of the Thorne because of Activision? That's what I heard.

Well, I don't know about that, but Order of the Thorne is a commercial game, which is a very different matter.

Nightfable · Thu 28/01/2016 21:38:03

Quote from: Snarky on Thu 28/01/2016 21:30:36
Quote from: Nightfable on Thu 28/01/2016 21:13:32I may be wrong but wasn't the reason Kingdom of Sorrow changed into Order of the Thorne because of Activision? That's what I heard.

Well, I don't know about that, but Order of the Thorne is a commercial game, which is a very different matter.

Yes, but I believe it started as a King's Quest fan game:

https://youtu.be/T_BPqsHKKes

Fizzii · Thu 28/01/2016 22:31:35

Kingdom of Sorrow was originally meant to be a King's Quest fan game (based on the book), but a lot of the backgrounds and a lot of sprites were completely original.

Basically what happened was that work stopped on KOS not because of copyright issues, but because there wasn't much direction with the project. After QFI was completed, it was decided to use the unused graphics from KOS, touch them up, and make OOTT: TKC out of them.

A similar thing happened with A Tale of Two Kingdoms - it originally started out as KQ2.5 fan game, but the original initiator of the project became absent, and eventually we decided that it would be better to make an original game rather than piggy backing off the Sierra name. Again, the art was original, so it was a matter of Radiant putting together a story and coming up with characters and puzzles.

You could potentially retain aspects of the work you've already done (e.g. changing backgrounds from KQ4 so that they aren't overtly familiar), and likewise changing character design/colours; that way you can call the art original and not infringing on copyright. (I know some people claimed that Heroine's Quest sprites were ripped, but really it was all done by hand with obvious nods to certain poses and animations).

That said, the chance of receiving a C&D for doing a remake is probably not that high, as long as you're not beating up the game to the point where Activision become concerned about it. And if you're not making money off it, I doubt that they can get much out of you -- however, I agree that it is usually better to save yourself the potential trouble, and it is definitely more rewarding (and more to learn) if you work on your own original project

blueskirt · Wed 17/02/2016 22:35:43

To the best of my knowledge, the only Sierra related fangames that received C&D from Vivendi or Activision were the fan made Space Quest VII project and The Silver Lining (back when it was called King's Quest IX), back in 2005. I do not know whether the graphical aspect of the projects (both were going for 3D graphics) played a role in the C&D letter but most certainly the title itself and the numeral that accompanied it was a pretty big deal. Both projects wanted to attract the attention of as much fans as possible (for extra visibility but also to attract as many potential artists, coders and developers as possible) and went for those specific titles and that rather important numeral to accompany them and that attracted the attention of a lot of fans but that also attracted the attention of Vivendi at the same time. Both projects were made an offer:

They had to change the title of their project,
They had to agree that the project would be 100% owned by Vivendi/Activision on release,

The King's Quest IX project agreed and changed the title to The Silver Lining. The Space Quest VII project however refused the offer and cancelled their project.

And while AGDI's four remakes were released with the permission of Vivendi/Activision, you'll most likely remember that Vivendi didn't seem to care when Infamous Adventures released their King's Quest III remake without their permission, nor did Activision break a sweat back in 2012 when fans released three Space Quest projects during the same month: A remake to Space Quest II and two sequels to Space Quest VI that didn't feature "VII" in their titles.

So, the chances that your King's Quest IV remake receive a C&D letter, if you're not claiming to be an official sequel, if art wise it looks like a fan project in Activision's eyes and not a game that would make their official sequels in the series look bad, if you don't try to make money out of it... those chances are pretty slim, and worse case scenario, you can most likely try to negotiate with Activision to get their permission, the same way they allowed AGDI's four remakes or The Silver Lining to release their project. Plus, you've been keeping such a low profile that myself, being a fan of those projects, I never know whether you're still working on the game or whether you moved on to something else, and big companies tend to not waste lawyer money for low profile projects that, in their eyes, may simply disappear on their own.

moloko · Thu 18/02/2016 13:13:47

You've been doing wonderful work for Ponderabilia in the past. If Kings Quest is no longer an option for you, I'd be happy to have you lending a hand to Ponderabilia II... That story is original, I own all the copyrights and it could really use decent animation and character development.

QuestingHero · Thu 12/05/2016 21:44:44

I have been following this project for years. I had assumed it had been canceled as there had not been any updates in... well, years. I have been trying to get excited about the 3D version, but it just didn't have the right feel to it. I re-discovered this project again, and then also found out that you have decided to stop today. I can completely understand your concerns, and I REALLY understand not wanting to get a C&D from Activision. but just wondering, have you thought about talking to AGD Interactive (http://www.agdinteractive.com/) and Infamous Adventures (http://www.infamous-adventures.com/) to see what they did to get permission from Activision? I would really hate for you to throw away all of the scripting work you have done for this game if all you had to do was ask and you could have continued it.

I would be glad to help out in any way that I can to keep this project alive. this game is the missing link to play through all the Kings Quests again with my kids as they can't handle the EGA version (and I can't say I I am a huge fan anymore either).

Sslaxx · Thu 12/05/2016 22:20:44

Infamous Adventures didn't ask for permission. Himalaya (AGDI) did. And then there's Phoenix with Silver Lining and its associated mess. So you may get C&D-ed, you may not. It's only a call you can make.

Snarky · Thu 12/05/2016 22:29:44

For those of you just seeing this thread, note that it's from January 2016. Since then, Nightfable has decided to turn the resources into an original game: http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=53191.0

I personally think it was probably not necessary to abandon the remake efforts, since past experiences tend to indicate that the risk of a project like this being stopped by Activision would be minimal. But hey, an original game is cool too!