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Author Topic: Brexitmageddon  (Read 21323 times)

Kumpel

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #20 on: 26 Jun 2016, 02:05 »
Quote
Maybe it's just me, that don't get nationalism. :-[

Much love for you, Cassie!

I was really devastated by the news I got yesterday in the morning. I never thought the extremely right-leaning forces in europe gained that much power already, to convince over 33% (52% of 72% of all possible voters... (wtf)) of one of the most democratic nations on earth to vote for leaving a federation, that gives you so many benefits and in relation to the economical, cultural and educational overvalue takes only a imho reasonable amount of money for it.

We really have to ask ourself very seriously now "How did this happen?" and more importantly "How can we prevent it, that the dangerous righ-wing populists gain more power from this victory in other countries?"
Me and my generation really don't want to live in a europe that is just backward-looking, narcissistic and fearful, that forgets to look into the future with courage, sanity and tolerance.

What's even more terrible for me: I see a lot of parallels between what the UK's citizens have become by a majority and what Germany's people are becoming at the moment. I am very aware of the political developments in my home country. The "refugee crisis" flushed very ugly opinions out in a serious amount and has now, one year before the next national election, made a party strong, that from the beginning of it's existence has been against the EU, against immigration, seemingly against any kind of cultural diversity. An ultra conservative way of thinking is becoming more and more popular and nobody here really knows, how powerful it has become already (or has ever been?)

Maybe some parts are really rotten inside of the EU. Actually I am sure some are, because power always goes hand in hand with corruption and therfore unsocial egoism at some point. But instead of abandoning, the remaining member states should work on that problems without destructive methods and radicality. It's clearly time for changes, but we shouldn't try to fix that with hot heads.
And if this referendum has really been the beginning of the end of the european union, I am wholheartedly wishing and hoping that something better is coming out of it. :-\

« Last Edit: 26 Jun 2016, 02:07 by Kumpel »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #21 on: 26 Jun 2016, 20:53 »
From the other side of the Atlantic it appears the choice was between economic advantage or freedom ... and freedom won.  Perhaps The Rascals said it best

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #22 on: 26 Jun 2016, 21:13 »
It's really hard to be free when you're in poverty and your country is crumbling around you.

So maybe it's freedom for rich people who want to be free from eu workers rights laws, or racists who want to be free to violently oust people they see as foreigners.

This isn't freedom, it's desperation that'll lead to worse things. Don't try to sugar coat it with platitudes. Freedom requires you not to be crushed by your country collapsing.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #23 on: 26 Jun 2016, 21:14 »
Hah, this is what happens when you play crappy football! UK is out! :P

RickJ

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #24 on: 26 Jun 2016, 22:38 »
Since I don't live there I can only tell you my opinion based on the US news reports.  From the reporting here the reasons given to stay were related to economics while the reasons to leave were related with dissatisfaction with the EU government in Brussels and a desire to run their own affairs.  That's what was reported here.

Whether or not Briton will be better off is for the British and time to decide.  However, it can't be denied that they took steps to manage their own affairs as they see fit and to accept whatever consequences may come. That is freedom (i.e. managing your own affairs) and not a platitude. 

I frankly don't get the racism thing.  It seems to me to be a clear ad hominem lacking a factual or intellectual basis.

Haggis

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #25 on: 27 Jun 2016, 00:24 »
Not all brexiters voted for this reason - the bureaucratic influence of Brussels was a key factor too. The summary would be, think Trump and his constant attack on the Mexicans.

Essentially you have to live here to understand the racism issue. Parties like UKIP (and the BNP) which reignited the debate to leave the EU have been widely known for holding and communicating racist views and comments - just watch John Oliver's Brexit piece from last Thursday. Over the decades the tabloid press (headed by moral figureheads such as Rupert Murdoch) have run near constant poisonous articles about EU migrants (stealing our jobs, criminals back home, attacking our women etc) - never communicating the benefits. Immigration therefore was a core argument during the Brexit debates, preying on peoples fears, and sadly it will have been the main reason a potentially large number of people voted leave. For example, the leave campaign made a huge point of flagging the (remote) possibility of Turkey joining the EU - their leaflets would show Turkey, but also include and prominently label Syria and Iraq despite them having nothing to do with the EU. We've already seen a number of incidents of racism across the country since the result, "Go back to where you came from etc".

Economics only came into it when the Remain camp tried to highlight the dangers of leaving the EU - that there would be a recession, pound would plummet etc. Pretty much what we've seen. The leave campaign also grossly exaggerated the financial amount leaving the EU would save the UK - the remain camp tried to highlight this lie but it was only admitted to be a 'mistake' on the morning of the result. We've also seen leave campaigners claim they 'made no promises, only listed possibilities' and admit that high levels of migration to and from the EU will continue. 

It's been a horrible debate with a horrible outcome.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #26 on: 27 Jun 2016, 01:29 »
However, it can't be denied that they took steps to manage their own affairs as they see fit and to accept whatever consequences may come.

But that is wrong on both counts.

First, leaving the EU doesn't allow them to manage their own affairs: they need to cooperate with the EU but no longer have direct influence of them. That makes them less able to manage their own affairs.

Second, they don't want to accept consequences: that is, they want to stop paying EU, but immediately petitioned the EU to keep paying the UK (e.g. grants for culture, education, and so forth).

This is not freedom, it is playing ostrich.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #27 on: 27 Jun 2016, 01:37 »
Have you seen Boris Johnson's article that will be published in tomorrow's Telegraph? Furious back pedalling in terms of the scale of Brexit and what appears to be a suggestion that we will still be in the EU or the EEA. Clear as mud, a country completely rudderless at the moment.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #28 on: 27 Jun 2016, 01:52 »
I frankly don't get the racism thing.  It seems to me to be a clear ad hominem lacking a factual or intellectual basis.

Ahem.



I dunno, maybe me actually being here gives me a more accurate picture of what's going on. Can you trust us when we say what's actually happening?

I've MET British racists. Yes, racism is a huge part of it. Yes, the leave campaign sent out leaflets appealing to racists.

Haggis

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #29 on: 27 Jun 2016, 02:18 »

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #30 on: 27 Jun 2016, 04:51 »
Wow Haggis...Just read through those incidents and they are pretty shocking. Of course the media mostly reports on extreme examples and when people behave decently it goes under the radar a lot of the time. But yeah: Still some pretty shocking stuff, especially considering it's not just the skinheads doing/saying this stuff.

Having been on the receiving end of racism here in Japan many a time, and also in Australia for speaking Japanese with my wife in a pub (we were told by a patron, a young woman of about 20 years of age, to either "speak Australian" or get out of the country), I know how enraged and yet how powerless it makes one feel. I guess what I want to say is that it sucks.
« Last Edit: 27 Jun 2016, 05:06 by Mandle »

Andail

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #31 on: 27 Jun 2016, 11:04 »
I frankly don't get the racism thing.  It seems to me to be a clear ad hominem lacking a factual or intellectual basis.

Care to elaborate on this? Because it sounds like you mean to say that racism isn't a thing within the leave-campaign.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #32 on: 27 Jun 2016, 11:30 »
Since I don't live there I can only tell you my opinion based on the US news reports.  From the reporting here the reasons given to stay were related to economics while the reasons to leave were related with dissatisfaction with the EU government in Brussels and a desire to run their own affairs.  That's what was reported here.

Since others are responding to your other points, let me just pick you up on two things:

-No, that was not the only thing that was reported in US news reports. For example, particularly after the murder of Jo Cox there was quite a lot of coverage of the xenophobic tone of the Leave campaign. Another thing that was widely reported were the economic arguments made by the Leavers (e.g. the £350/week allegedly sent to the EU), and the fact that these claims didn't hold up.
-We are communicating, right now, through a global electronic network that allows us access to news and information from all over the world. Living in the US does not mean you are limited to what your local news media reports. For a local British perspective, you could easily seek out e.g. The Guardian (pro-Remain), The Telegraph (pro-Leave) or the BBC (fairly neutral).

Haggis

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #33 on: 27 Jun 2016, 12:33 »
BBC 'neutrality' is another topic of discussion at present... but we can leave that for another day.

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #34 on: 27 Jun 2016, 15:14 »

Wow, that is very racist. >:(
And it's one of the few things I've seen which has actually offended me (I don't seem to get offended by anything).
And that's probably because my grandfather on my mother's side, was Polish. He fought in WW2 for Britain as well.

I'll never get Britain's hatred against the Polish. I always thought we were supposed to have an unexplainable hatred against the French. ???

Scavenger

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #35 on: 27 Jun 2016, 15:37 »
I'm afraid I've been hearing stuff like that for years and years - hatred against the Polish, Romanians, Lithuanians, the Turkish, Muslims in general...

But what can you expect from a country where one of the biggest newspapers ran a story celebrating Nazis, and never got less extremely right wing than that? The Daily Mail continually runs snarl pieces about "immigrants".

Ali

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #36 on: 27 Jun 2016, 18:13 »
If you're looking for an interesting take on Brexit, which might cover some background unfamiliar to non-Brits, I found this piece quite thought-provoking:

Quote
In this context, the slogan ‘take back control' was a piece of political genius. It worked on every level between the macroeconomic and the psychoanalytic. Think of what it means on an individual level to rediscover control. To be a person without control (for instance to suffer incontinence or a facial tick) is to be the butt of cruel jokes, to be potentially embarrassed in public. It potentially reduces one's independence. What was so clever about the language of the Leave campaign was that it spoke directly to this feeling of inadequacy and embarrassment, then promised to eradicate it. The promise had nothing to do with economics or policy, but everything to do with the psychological allure of autonomy and self-respect. Farrage's political strategy was to take seriously communities who'd otherwise been taken for granted for much of the past 50 years.

http://www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/thoughts-on-the-sociology-of-brexit/

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #37 on: 28 Jun 2016, 17:32 »
My amused observations:

- I think my house must have received more than twice as many anti EU leaflets than pro, all of them different designs.

- Certain people I spoke to who voted out to stop immigration acted as if it would completely stop, and that any foreigners would simply disappear! (laugh)

- These same people thought that as of the result, we are literally not part of the EU! Like it doesn't have to be voted through parliament, that we won't end up following EU regs anyway (a possibility)!
« Last Edit: 28 Jun 2016, 18:00 by Retro Wolf »

Radiant

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #38 on: 28 Jun 2016, 18:28 »
I've just heard the referendum is only advisory and that the government could still elect to do something else than implement it in the most literal fashion... any thoughts on that?

Haggis

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Re: Brexitmageddon
« Reply #39 on: 28 Jun 2016, 21:32 »
It's true it's advisory and not legally binding - but the 'people in charge', which seems to be no one at the moment, keep saying the result is final and must be respected. It all stinks at the moment like something is going on. Either they won't do it and are delaying to find a legitimate reason not to, or Boris is an idiot and really thinks he'll get a great deal from the EU to stay but with his demands, or we really are trying to come up with a plan to successfully obliterate ourselves as a nation. Time will tell.