Topic: Trumpmageddon

[mkennedy]

Alas, today ends the most entertaining 4 years of American politics. Let us hope that Biden doesn't drag the US right back to all of their old tricks. We've had enough of the warmongering world police. I see a lot of newspapers saying that "Biden is now becoming the leader of the free world", but I think that title has been lost to the US presidency long before Trump even came to office. Maybe around the Bush Junior years. To see something positive in the Trump years: he reminded us all that the rest of the western world should not rely solely on the US and NATO for their protection and stability, and countries should look inward once more, to ensure their own house of cards is in order before preaching beyond their own borders.

That probably could have been accomplished with a Ron/Rand Paul presidency though. And that wouldn't have resulted in the deaths of 400000+ Americans.

[WHAM]

Considering the lack of funding and the general state of public healthcare in the US even during previous presidencies, I find it a bit of a weird fantasy to think that if only we'd avoided a Trump presidency then, magically, nobody would have died of Covid in the US.

[mkennedy]

Considering the lack of funding and the general state of public healthcare in the US even during previous presidencies, I find it a bit of a weird fantasy to think that if only we'd avoided a Trump presidency then, magically, nobody would have died of Covid in the US.

Of course there would still be deaths, but there likely wouldn't be nearly as many. Probably less than half or even a quarter of what we have now.

[WHAM]

Appreciate the optimism. I'd have put the decrease at more like 5-10% at most, but at this stage it's all just guesswork anyway.

[Stupot]

Trump’s policies (or lack thereof) certainly didn’t do the statistic any favours but there’s over 4 years worth of other stuff blame him for (I think he should definitely take the rap for those who lost their lives in the Capitol riot). But I think pinning genocide levels of corona deaths on him is a bit of a stretch.

Governments fucking up their coronavirus response is pretty much the norm. Saying he’s personally responsible for 400000 deaths is like blaming an avalanche that destroyed your village on the guy who left the gate open.* It’s a terrible statistic but not the worst in the world as a percentage of population (UK is worse, another major policy fuck-up).


*Though admittedly some will be quick to point out that experts had been warning about this type of avalanche for years and the village leaders were supposed to be investing in better gates but they got complacent, so that will need investigating.

[mkennedy]

Hopefully with Trump gone this will bring an end to all the Qanon nutjobs.

[WHAM]

Doubtful. I think those people are kind of like flat-earthers and moon landing deniers. They'll always come up with some explanation that will allow them to either keep going or transform into a new movement.

https://www.is.fi/kotimaa/art-2000007760512.html

Finnish columnist and historian: "How bad was Trump, really."

In his column he considers certain similarities between Trump and the cold war era figures Nikita Khrushchev and Ronald Reagan. The former as the kind of unthinkably loud and obnoxious figure who still managed to bring about meaningful changes, and the latter as someone who was panned as the worst possible kind of idiot in their own time by the media, but is rather fondly remembered later on. Whether Trumps legacy will actually stand up in similar ways over time, we'll see. The columnist notes that the only area where he thinks Trump will truly be remembered as a negative influence is in the matters of climate change and preservation.

As for evaluating Trump as a leader, he will be judged not only against those who came before, but also those who come after.

To quote: "If Trump is 'the worst there ever was', we'll run out of superlatives to describe leaders far too soon. Will we even know to fear the truly terrible future leaders, who don't simply polarize the voterbase, but actually press the button."

[Cassiebsg]

No we won't. We'll just go with "worse than Trump!" And that says it all. 

[Danvzare]

No we won't. We'll just go with "worse than Trump!" And that says it all. 

And if someone is worse then that person, we'll just say "worse than *insert name of previous worst president here*."
You really can't run out of descriptions for terrible leaders. 

[Blondbraid]

No we won't. We'll just go with "worse than Trump!" And that says it all. 

And if someone is worse then that person, we'll just say "worse than *insert name of previous worst president here*."
You really can't run out of descriptions for terrible leaders. 

Yep, it's not like words are fossil fuel.

Also, strong feelings often require strong words. It's hard to call people to action with a bunch of "perhaps" and "maybe".

[WHAM]

Meaningless hyperbole drains people, though. If everything is "the worst X ever", then eventually nothing is really the worst. Same for "best X ever".
It's all just the same, as people lose perspective, and the same effect is pretty evident in the polarization of the US, where everyone who disagrees with you is either the devil or a nazi or potentially both. The words themselves lose their meaning.

See: everyone who has said 2020 was the worst year ever, when in reality it was a rather inconvenient year, but for the vast majority of people it wasn't all that bad after all.

[Phemar]

Having become President and commander of the armed forces, Trump's ego swells to even more grandiose proportions. He is hooked on the high of adulation, and responds to any criticism or attack with uncontrolled fury. Having alienated much of the political establishment (particularly the foreign policy establishment), his administration is short on expertise and full of extremists, sycophants and charlatans. His undisciplined, impulsive and downright foolish words and actions, as well as the missteps of the other unqualified administration members, cause numerous international and economic crises, to which his instinct is to respond with aggression and escalation. Hopefully his easy manipulability (just flatter him) and more rational actors in other countries manage to stop these crises from sparking wider war.

Encouraged by Trump's lack of support for American alliances, Russia, China and other states step up confrontation with their neighboring countries. South Korea and Japan respond by rearming, which may include a nuclear weapons program. Other East Asian states make concessions, resigning themselves to increased Chinese influence. In the former communist states in Europe there's a decrease in faith in all the institutions and ideals of "the West": EU, NATO, liberal democracy. NATO continues to weaken and fracture (not just because of Trump, but also by the erosion of democracy in countries like Poland, Hungary and Turkey), and with no reassurance of common defense, individual countries start to arm up and pursue separate defense strategies. There's a worldwide rise in militarism and nationalism.

The US abandons many of its treaties, including the Iran treaty (so Iran resumes its nuclear weapons program), NAFTA (causing a loss in trade with Mexico that weakens the economy), the Paris climate change treaty (setting back any effective action to stop the ongoing global environmental disaster), and more. "Obamacare" is only partially abolished, but millions of Americans do lose their health care. Deep tax cuts lead to giant deficits, and to cuts in government programs and staffing. Anti-trade policies and attempts to "get tough" in trade negotiations with China and other countries lead to retributory policies that may escalate into a trade war. Together with the uncertainty caused by Trump's erratic behavior, this causes the economy to plunge into another recession.

On immigration, Trump's signature policies (the wall, deportation) are watered down or only carried out to a symbolic extent; most of his supporters don't notice, but some hardliners decry him as a traitor. In matters of social justice (police violence etc.), a Trump administration is unsympathetic and tin-eared, and this leads to increased social unrest. Killings both of cops and of black activists, by disturbed individuals who have been radicalized online, increase.

Blaming Muslims as a group for jihadist terrorism, Trump continues to nourish Islamophobia in America. Hate crimes against Muslims (and those who can be mistaken for Muslims) rise. Marginalized in this way, more Muslims are in fact radicalized into violence, while a larger group is drawn towards anti-Trump liberal politics. In the Muslim world, the narrative that the west is at war with Islam gains increased acceptance, delegitimizing American values and influences and strengthening extremists and authoritarian governments alike.

Coming into office as a sexual predator with a long list of scandals, a track record of fraud and illegality, not having isolated himself from his business interests, and with ties to organized crime, international fugitives and foreign oligarchs and dictators, Trump's administration quickly shows itself to be the most corrupt and scandal-ridden in memory, with Trump blatantly using the government to enrich himself. These scandals get considerable play in the media, but the GOP Congress is too craven and partisan to take any action to censure or rein him in, at least at first.

Already loathed and feared by half the country, Trump's shtick wears thin very quickly even for many who voted for him. His approval ratings fall to somewhere around the George W. Bush low point of 25%. Resentful and vindictive, he lashes out at his enemies and tries to use the powers of his office to get even with them. This leads to illegalities and abuses that dwarf Watergate.

... So, all around a fun few years ahead.

Wow Snarky, this was uhh... surprisingly accurate.

[Ali]

Meaningless hyperbole drains people, though. If everything is "the worst X ever", then eventually nothing is really the worst. Same for "best X ever".
It's all just the same, as people lose perspective, and the same effect is pretty evident in the polarization of the US, where everyone who disagrees with you is either the devil or a nazi or potentially both. The words themselves lose their meaning.

See: everyone who has said 2020 was the worst year ever, when in reality it was a rather inconvenient year, but for the vast majority of people it wasn't all that bad after all.

The 2004 Tsunami wasn't all that bad for the vast majority of people - just the people affected by the Tsunami. Maybe they should stop moaning - after all, a worse Tsunami might happen in the future?

[Cassiebsg]

Like Ali mentions everything is relative. I'm sure a lot of people that have lost a loved one (to covid or other reason) or lost their job and home will probably agree in "worth ever"... Others, like me that managed to find the job I've been wanting after 16 years, will not consider it "worse ever". So far we haven't had (thank God!) a "worse than Hitler", but that doesn't mean it'll never happen. And I would be surprised if survivors of a concentration camp or similar horror, would categorize 2020 as "worse ever". 

So it's always relative to the person that speaks and his/her life experiences. But you're not dumb, so you know this already. Which makes me wonder why it would even be needed to have to say it. 

[WHAM]

Which makes me wonder why it would even be needed to have to say it. 

A pet peeve of mine, seeing words used in ways that devalue them and erode their purpose. Nothing more than that. It's been increasingly prevalent in discussions over certain topics, such as politics, over the past half decade or so, which is why that column I linked to felt especially meaningful as part of this particular conversation. It does people good to have a wider perspective on things, rather than letting their personal biases and loose language lead them to think all the world shares their "absolutely correct" worldview.

Congrats on the job, by the way!

[Ali]

I think a bit of historical perspective is welcome - especially for people experiencing hardships because of politicians' incompetence and malice. It's a reminder that things can get better, people can survive and rebuild. But when it's used to deflect from real suffering and to launder the reputations of people responsible, it is - at best - lazy thinking.

It is, of course, hyperbolic to call Donald Trump "a literal Nazi". But it's also somewhat more truthful than calling him "not a Nazi," because he shares many characteristics with racialist, far-right leaders (including enjoying the support of the far-right). I'm not excessively concerned that people saying "Nazi" as a shorthand for "white supremacist right-wing authoritarian" will lead to any genuine confusion.

[Danvzare]

Meaningless hyperbole drains people, though. If everything is "the worst X ever", then eventually nothing is really the worst. Same for "best X ever".

Have you ever seen how "gamers" act? 
I wish you were right, but unfortunately you clearly aren't.

And if "gamers" can keep up the meaningless hyperbole for this long without being drained, I'm fairly sure everyone else can. Especially when it comes down to politics.

[Crimson Wizard]

Which makes me wonder why it would even be needed to have to say it. 

A pet peeve of mine, seeing words used in ways that devalue them and erode their purpose. Nothing more than that. It's been increasingly prevalent in discussions over certain topics, such as politics, over the past half decade or so,

To me it seems always been this way as long as I remember, there is a kind of people who like to do this, in regards to any possible topic or context.
I.e. every time there's some natural disaster people start posting same "nature is warning us, maybe it does not want us on this planet anymore, blablabla" (to which I always add in mind "remember dinosaurs! they did not listen when they should have!").

[WHAM]

And if "gamers" can keep up the meaningless hyperbole for this long without being drained, I'm fairly sure everyone else can. Especially when it comes down to politics.

Aren't gamers the prime example of wearing their superlatives thin? I've seen so many games called "best game ever", in some cases before the game is even out and playable (see: Cyberpunk 2077) that it's become an utterly meaningless phrase. Same for review scores.

[Blondbraid]

Well, I can agree in the sense that the overuse of Godwin's law in US political discourse has made it easier for republicans to brush off actual fascist things Trump has done.