Author Topic: Trumpmageddon  (Read 84275 times)

Grim

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #100 on: 12 Nov 2016, 11:10 »
Well here's a link that should explain some things.  He's got an English accent so what he says must be true :-D.  Have fun and hysteria watching.



I've followed that channel for a while now. I agree 100% with what he says about Trump, and on most other topics (islam...). I'm not American, obviously, so it's not my say, but clearly Trump has won because people of America have voted for him. That's how democracy works. End of story.

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #101 on: 12 Nov 2016, 11:21 »
Again, "SJW" is used by the extreme/alt right to refer to "anyone left of me".

Seriously? The way I have been using it refers to someone who takes up any old liberal cause for their own self-satisfaction, rather than actually engaging or thinking about the issues properly. That is literally the definition and I personally know many people who it suits (invariably young, white middle-class people like me). I am not 'alt right' because I doubt the sincerity and permanency of some people's so-say convictions. Instead I've been sworn at and been called extreme right, it's quite ironic. Oh, and how about we say "alt right" is used by SJWs to refer to "anyone right of me".

Again, my comments were off-topic so please let's not get hung up on it here.

So Trump has announced that he will keep some key provisions of Obamacare and there won't be a wholesale repeal. Which brings me back to my point that what Trump said on the campaign trail isn't solely how we should judge how his presidency will actually turn out. He's a liar, he contradicts himself, he's bizarre - in practice what he said off the top of his head at a podium will be ameliorated by the realities of office.
« Last Edit: 12 Nov 2016, 11:38 by Atelier »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #102 on: 12 Nov 2016, 11:30 »
Well here's a link that should explain some things.  He's got an English accent so what he says must be true :-D.  Have fun and hysteria watching.


Also an insightful view. It strikes me that a vocal number of people from both sides support democracy only as long as their side wins. This whole us-against-them mentality is the actual problem here; do all two-party systems get to that eventually? People have been saying for awhile that the election system itself needs to change. I think the last time we saw such a change is when presidents were limited to two terms, about a century ago, so I don't have high hopes of such a change happening the next four years. That said, clearly a number of trump supporters are hoping for him to change the system, and he strikes me as more likely to actually do so than hillary. No guarantees though.
« Last Edit: 12 Nov 2016, 11:35 by Radiant »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #103 on: 12 Nov 2016, 11:45 »
So Trump has announced that he will keep some key provisions of Obamacare and there won't be a wholesale repeal.

Called it:

"Obamacare" is only partially abolished, but millions of Americans do lose their health care.

(We'll see about the second part, obviously, but I think Congress will feel committed to repealing some of the central parts of the law. If they just tweak it to fix some of the flaws – like Democrats have been pushing for FOR YEARS – and take the credit for the new and improved version, that would be politically galling, but at least the outcome would be happy.)

Of course, given that he's reversed himself multiple times on almost every matter of policy, this new statement is worth practically nothing in itself. Let's see what he actually does.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #104 on: 12 Nov 2016, 12:37 »
Cool InfoWars vid! Well then, on the shouty British video people theme, let's not forget the Jonathan Pie one that's doing the rounds ;)

(strong language BTW, maybe NSFW)

[embed=600,400]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLG9g7BcjKs[/embed]

Anyway, looks like the mass hysteria has passed (just) and now some of the more serious and intelligent debate is finding its way through. Well, in dribs and drabs, but it's there (and here) in some capacity now at least...!
« Last Edit: 12 Nov 2016, 12:45 by Mods »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #105 on: 12 Nov 2016, 13:12 »
During his campaign, Trump appeared as a big asshole. To be honest I can't tell what Trump will actually do as a president and how it will change the USA in the long term. I can only judge him by what he has said - and if I try to take him at his word, he will fail miserably. Because even if you agree to his positions (which I don't) many of the things he promised are simply impossible. So it's possible that policy-wise, nothing big will happen. But his campaign has made the country more aggressive. I have never seen so much hate in an election campaign (at least not in a democratic country during my liftime - history has some examples, but I don't want to derail the topic). And this is where the real danger is. If you stir up so much hate against big parts of the population, you shouldn't be surprised that there are protests (and of course people have the right to protest). If Hillary had won the election, there would have been the same protests, but probably with more guns involved. At least Clinton and Obama accept the result of the election. Can you imaginge that Trump would have done this, after all he has said during his campaign? So I'm not so much worried about what Trump will do as president. I'm much more worried about what his campaign has done to the people - not just in the US, but worldwide.

About SJW: While there may be people who fall into this category, most of time I have seen the term used to devalue other people's opinions. To stop a debate. I see it mainly used by people who could be called SJWW (social justice warrior warrior, some people have that as a hobby). If someone stands up for women's rights and racial equality I don't f*cking care if this is done for self-satisfaction. Call this person a SJW, but it is still a hundred times better than standing up for the opposite of these values. It's a ridiculous term.
« Last Edit: 12 Nov 2016, 13:15 by Problem »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #106 on: 12 Nov 2016, 13:14 »
Mods...

That video was amazing on so many levels...

The way he speaks his case without his eyes ducking over to slightly off-camera cue-cards, and way the whole thing is filmed as if it was actually an impromtu video, and yet not quite considering the professional camera work and audio quality...

But especially for what he really says.

It's a powerful video, very well acted and produced.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #107 on: 12 Nov 2016, 13:43 »
About SJW: While there may be people who fall into this category, most of time I have seen the term used to devalue other people's opinions. To stop a debate. I see it mainly used by people who could be called SJWW (social justice warrior warrior, some people have that as a hobby). If someone stands up for women's rights and racial equality I don't f*cking care if this is done for self-satisfaction. Call this person a SJW, but it is still a hundred times better than standing up for the opposite of these values. It's a ridiculous term.

There are people that take "social justice" too far, such as advocating censorship to protect people's feelings, or just their image. They want the people they're advocating for to be treated like children, and sheltered even more than that. That's BS, and should be called out. Mainstream feminism is rife with this kind of behaviour, and it's often males perpetrating it. This in my opinion is just another way to subject women to what they find culturally acceptable behaviour.

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #108 on: 12 Nov 2016, 14:55 »
It's easy to break down the election into 4chan vs. SJWs, but that's way too simplistic in my book.
It's true that a small but vocal part of liberals went way overboard with PC, but I also think that lots of conservative voters were just as appalled by the sheer amount of hate that was displayed by trump supporters online and at the rallies.
I'd love to see some numbers.

I find this article to make a much more compelling case for why people voted for trump: http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

(My personal opinion about Trump is that he is uniquely unfit to hold a higher office of any sort, even disregarding his contempt for anybody who isn't white, male and rich.)

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #109 on: 12 Nov 2016, 15:58 »
I find this article to make a much more compelling case for why people voted for trump: http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons-trumps-rise-that-no-one-talks-about/

I find it... sad ...that someone has to explain things like that, but apparently many people just disregard this as non-important, or something they do not give a f*** about. That's actually a root of the problem, in my opinion. Regardless of whether you are sympathetic or disliking to those people (IDK how you would label them - poor, rural, "culturaly-atavistic", or with some other contemporary term that I am not aware of), they are real, they exist, and you have to deal with them, their presence and their opinion (when they express it), this way or another. The way of dealing with those who politically or culturally oppose you - is the main question.
Would you ignore them all the time - until they remind about themselves? Or try to help and educate (is not that what government and social organization supposed to do?)? Or, heck, maybe you just put them in concentration camps where they would not bother you with their savagery anymore (sometimes I feel like certain political activists would rather do this)? or else.

I did not really want to post here, because I do not think that's really my business, and I know almost nothing about Trump, Hillary Clinton, or internal situation of USA. Also being rather non-social person I often miss new trends until they are like 5-10 years old (for example, I learnt about "social justice warriors" only about month ago - no kidding here). But reading this thread made me awfully surprised.
Suprised in both bad and funny way. I think what LimpingFish posted here is basically how I feel.

You see, one of the big reasons why liberal opposition is not very popular in Russia is them being openly disdainful to the people who do not share their views. It is not an uncommon thing for some "liberal guy" to make a post in facebook suggesting to cancel voting rights for old people, because their generation prevents progress (or something along those lines). Naturally, with them saying things like that, even folk with generally liberal views would refuse to tag along. Which in turn makes them even more angry and agitated, proclaiming everyone "genetic slaves", "Putin's servants", etc.
There was a time when I was younger, impudent, and very "openly anti-putinist" (I just like playing with words ;)). And although I considered myself rather "socialist" than "liberal", I was wondering what would it like if a "REAL" liberal leader would emerge, who would at least have enough respect and common sense to not have such attitude towards common people. I mean, I genuinely and naively believed that this is just how our domestic self-appointed liberals behave.

Welp...
« Last Edit: 12 Nov 2016, 16:47 by Crimson Wizard »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #110 on: 12 Nov 2016, 17:14 »
Quote
I did not really want to post here, because I do not think that's really my business, and I know almost nothing about Trump, Hillary Clinton, or internal situation of USA
It's difficult if not impossible to understand the internal politics of another country beyond a superficial level. It's naive and foolish to believe and behave otherwise. 

Quote
You see, one of the big reasons why liberal opposition is not very popular in Russia is them being openly disdainful to the people who do not share their views.

I couldn't agree more.  I've lived and worked in a number of different countries and met people from all walks of life.  I've found that there is something interesting to be learned from everyone you meet if only you take the time to listen and to think.  I have great respect and admiration for these people and I am deeply offended by liberal/progressive people with self-righteous condescending attitudes and their own unique form of bigotry and who are unable or unwilling to think for themselves. 
« Last Edit: 12 Nov 2016, 17:16 by RickJ »

Ali

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #111 on: 12 Nov 2016, 18:14 »
What I meant by political correctness, personally, was things like Ali saying that Jack shouldn't use the word female when refering to Hillary being corrupt. I mean, I get it's a label, and her gender shouldn't have anything to do with being corrupt, but from a pragmatic point of view, someone who demonizes such labeling could do more harm than someone who casually uses it. Don't get me wrong Ali, I am definitely on your side in the bigger picture, but maybe it's not just people like me who should be more careful with their words.

I'm all for being polite and trying to understand other people's views, although my intemperate post is not the best example of that. But the left and Jonathan Pie are beating themselves up for demonising Trump supporters. The names we used, the labels we threw around are to blame for his victory.

I don't think Trump supporters are all evil, but there's this idea that 60 million people can't be racist, can't be sexist, can't be homophobic. 60 million people CAN be all those things. Anyone can, it's very easy. I've been guilty of each of them, to my shame.

But if we can't name bigotry for fear of causing offence, for fear of 'labelling' someone, then where does that get us? How does it help the left to tiptoe around the feelings of people who want to BE racist, but don't want to be CALLED racist? Millions of people decided that they were prepared to at least *tolerate* Trump's racism.

Perhaps articles which call racist people racist should have a 'label' warning at the top to prevent anyone from getting *labelled*.


Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #112 on: 12 Nov 2016, 19:54 »
But the left and Jonathan Pie are beating themselves up for demonising Trump supporters. The names we used, the labels we threw around are to blame for his victory.
I didn't think that was about labels at all. More like our unwillingness to look out of our ivory towers and even acknowledge the idea that there could be actual reasons for someone being racist, or anything else that we consider inherently wrong.

Or as he puts it: 'We don't debate anymore because the left won the cultural war'.

But if we can't name bigotry for fear of causing offence, for fear of 'labelling' someone, then where does that get us?
That was supposed to be my line. :P

They insisted on lifting up the most openly corrupt female politician in history.
The key word in this sentence is 'female'.
It was you who said that Jack should not refer to (= label) Hillary as female in such a context. I'd say being female is a rather noticeable trait, and still very much ingrained in our culture, whether you like it or not. It's also kind of noteworthy, especially considering no female has ever been a US president before. It wouldn't be bad to leave the word out, but it's not so bad to use it either. It's just so utterly irrelevant, if you ask me. It won't change anyone's opinion on women's level of corruption in general.

Besides, maybe Jack implicitly tried to argue that Hillary was set up as a candidate because she was a woman, which the DNC thought would get her extra political points from the "PC crew". But no, you decided that his use of the word is somehow bad, and that he "absolutely should remove the word female from that sentence".

That said, I feel bad for singling you out like that and droning on about this particular example. I think this passage makes for a worse case of accidental bigotry in this thread:

True, but when your choice is to vote for either the establishment, experienced woman versus the anti-establishment, inexperienced misogynist, one would think there's a clear winner.  What's more important to these women?  I guess voting against the establishment is more important than their own rights as human beings.  I guess voting for a hateful rapist is more important than someone who can actually identify with you and the struggles of all American women.
Yeah, that should teach these stupid women! 8-)
Hmm..it's kinda steep. But with a sled I can slide down the slope.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #113 on: 12 Nov 2016, 20:07 »
I don't care that Jack 'labelled' Clinton female - she is female. I object to him calling her the "most openly corrupt female politician in history."

The vast majority of politicians in history are men, and all the people who've held the office of President are men. Clinton should be compared to them. By comparing Clinton to other female politicians, rather than other politicians, he was holding her to a different, in this case higher, standard because of her sex. That is a sexist thing to do. He should try to make his argument without relying on implicit prejudices.

I don't mind you singling me out, but I don't see anything bigoted in dactylopus's quote.
« Last Edit: 12 Nov 2016, 21:21 by Ali »

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #114 on: 12 Nov 2016, 21:13 »
It depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #115 on: 12 Nov 2016, 21:30 »
I am deeply offended by liberal/progressive people with self-righteous condescending attitudes and their own unique form of bigotry and who are unable or unwilling to think for themselves. 

Okay, examples of this "unique bigotry" that made you vote for Trump please? What you said is not enough information to really understand where you are coming from.

I don't care that Jack 'labelled' Clinton female - she is female. I object to him calling her the "most openly corrupt female politician in history."

Yeah, the insertion of female in there changes the context of the sentence entirely, since we are now comparing "female politicians",and not politicians x3 Its not even about being politically correct, but just regularly correct, if Jack had meant to compare her to all politicians.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #116 on: 12 Nov 2016, 21:39 »
There is a notable overlap between 'politically incorrect' and 'factually incorrect'.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #117 on: 12 Nov 2016, 21:54 »
Quote
I did not really want to post here, because I do not think that's really my business, and I know almost nothing about Trump, Hillary Clinton, or internal situation of USA
It's difficult if not impossible to understand the internal politics of another country beyond a superficial level. It's naive and foolish to believe and behave otherwise.
Yet you refuse to give your insight and berate those who sincerely ask for the opinion with your condescending attitude. While you weren't the only person I had in my mind when I wrote my previous post here, I'll ask you directly this time:

Enlighten me, in your own words, why would people still vote for Trump despite belonging to the very same group(s) which he targeted during his campaign?

I really wish US was 'just another country', btw. But USA directly and/or indirectly has a big influence on my country (and on the world), so you can't really blame me for being curious.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #118 on: 12 Nov 2016, 23:58 »
By comparing Clinton to other female politicians, rather than other politicians, he was holding her to a different, in this case higher, standard because of her sex. That is a sexist thing to do.

Only because that "higher standard" allowed the exclusion of people like jacob zuma, who is widely believed to be guilty of rape, and known to be as crooked as they come.

Speaking of, I hear sam jackson is coming to live in south africa. He's going to love jz.

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #119 on: 13 Nov 2016, 12:21 »
I don't care that Jack 'labelled' Clinton female - she is female. I object to him calling her the "most openly corrupt female politician in history."

Yeah, the insertion of female in there changes the context of the sentence entirely, since we are now comparing "female politicians",and not politicians x3 Its not even about being politically correct, but just regularly correct, if Jack had meant to compare her to all politicians.

I can agree with that, but I don't think we're talking about the same things here.

She is widely regarded as corrupt, and she is a woman. It doesn't matter so much how corrupt she is on a greater scale of things, it's just that she's a bad choice for a candidate, and her being a woman doesn't help the cause for women empowerment but rather hinders it. Why would women want to be represented by a female who's considered corrupt in the first place when there are other female politicians out there who are considered less corrupt than her? Okay, I know that a lot of Hillary hate stemmed from right-wing propaganda, but that's still the picture a lot of the people were seeing as reality, and they voted accordingly.

But anyway, it doesn't really matter. I'm just nitpicking at semantics and pragmatics here.

I don't mind you singling me out, but I don't see anything bigoted in dactylopus's quote.

Maybe bigotry wasn't the best expression, but I think it's a bit of an arrogant proposition to expect all women should follow this line of thought where they have to act offended by someone who gives sexist remarks. Okay, I acknowledge you can rightfully get offended by things like that, and you can get fucking pissed off when it affects you personally, but then don't get upset when somebody else doesn't. It's not the only way to look at the world, and some people simply feel like they have more important things to do in their life than fight for ideologies that don't affect them.
Hmm..it's kinda steep. But with a sled I can slide down the slope.