Author Topic: Trumpmageddon  (Read 84276 times)

WHAM

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #560 on: 09 Jan 2021, 14:42 »
Yes, Ali, well spotted. That was the exact joke I was making, and the exact kind of people I was both mocking and warning you about.
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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #561 on: 09 Jan 2021, 14:47 »
Again, these symbols have real power because there's still neo-nazis and fascists out there who have hurt and killed real people. People in the 1930s kept treating Hitler as a populist clown and kept making excuses as he annexed Austria and occupied Czechoslovakia, and look where it got them.

Sorry if this comes across as too emotional, but my own grandmother lived in Czechoslovakia during the German occupation and saw people she knew disappear forever into concentration camps, and I've been in the same room as people who've survived the holocaust and had nightmares from the stories they've told me. This isn't ancient history and dressing or posing as a nazi isn't funny for people who've seen the horrors.


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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #562 on: 09 Jan 2021, 14:55 »
Sure, there are neo-nazis out there, but they lack the power to do much, so pretending they hold such power is inane.

I can sympathise with your family history, even though my family was very much on the other side of the experience, and if we were having this conversation in a setting where actual holocaust survivors were present then even I would wholly agree that jokes on the topic would be in utterly poor taste. However, an internet forum is not such a place, and while everyone might have a different opinion and personal experience, silencing opinions, ideas, topics and worldviews, as well as making certain words and symbols simply verboten due to some aspect of their history, is a wholly unreasonable expectation of an entire community.

Well, unless that community chooses to expel all who hold different opinions and worldviews and sets up gatekeeping policites, as some sites already do.

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Haggis

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #563 on: 09 Jan 2021, 15:05 »
"It's a fear of ghosts." - It's naive to refer to nazism as a dead ideology - it is not dead, it is just not popular, and sadly given oxygen that can change over time. Of course a 'symbol' is just an image, but many symbols/icons are appropriated in some way, they stand for something, they represent something. As you note a symbol may have other meanings, lets take the 'OK' symbol of connecting finger and thumb, now appropriated by white supremacy. This tainting cannot be easily undone. You may not like that a symbol you think should be inoffensive has become so - but that's the classic few spoiling it for the many. Therefore people should absolutely continue to be disgusted by the use of a symbol if it's common appropriation represents something more sinister which should rightly be opposed.

Also, using the symbol as an avatar is different to using it say in an Indiana Jones or Wolfenstein game - an avatar is a representation of you/your identity.

"It remains both sad and funny at the same time to see how the left-leaning people all over the world have so utterly failed to learn what kind of harm it does to label people" - I don't think you can pin this solely on the left. I think both sides are guilty of labelling - it's a childish conflict response - but certainly something the outgoing president has not held back on indulging in himself.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #564 on: 09 Jan 2021, 15:11 »
"It remains both sad and funny at the same time to see how the left-leaning people all over the world have so utterly failed to learn what kind of harm it does to label people" - I don't think you can pin this solely on the left. I think both sides are guilty of labelling - it's a childish conflict response - but certainly something the outgoing president has not held back on indulging in himself.

For my part, I've no qualms pointing the finger as much on the right as I do on the left. I've been repeatedly calling out the extremes on both sides, and both sides are, at least in the US, definitely guilty of using the same tactics. The issue of labelling people as you please and then using those labels as justification for further abuse, of special interest to me as a thing I've had the unpleasant experience of being the target of myself, has become increasingly prevalent in US politics over the past decade and seem to be steadily seeping out of the US and into the politics and especially the media of slightly more civilized parts of the world as well.

Oddly enough, even on this very forum we seem to find plenty of people willing to look the other way when one side, or rather they themselves, are abusing these tactics, and are more than eager to call it out when someone else does it.
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Snarky

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #565 on: 09 Jan 2021, 15:12 »
However, an internet forum is not such a place, and while everyone might have a different opinion and personal experience, silencing opinions, ideas, topics and worldviews, as well as making certain words and symbols simply verboten due to some aspect of their history, is a wholly unreasonable expectation of an entire community.

Nevertheless, we do ban certain words and symbols on these forums (though with regard for context, e.g. "use" vs. "mention").

And the comic you posted is, as it turns out, from an alt-right artist, with other strips that are transphobic, racist, and express Holocaust denial (and with its official forum a Neo-Nazi fan community that was banned from Reddit). Which again, is not permitted here.

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #566 on: 09 Jan 2021, 15:15 »
Have been trying to catch up and found this bit from WHAM's earlier post important:

They are, however, extremists in sharing the same set of tools and ideals. Both believe they are on a righteous path (some more accurately than others).

WHAM, could you briefly clarify which ones you believe to be more accurate? Why and by what margin? At least for me it would help clear up that Nazi sympathizer accusation, one way or the other.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #567 on: 09 Jan 2021, 15:30 »
And the comic you posted is, as it turns out, from an alt-right artist, with other strips that are transphobic, racist, and express Holocaust denial (and with its official forum a Neo-Nazi fan community that was banned from Reddit). Which again, is not permitted here.

The creator of the comic, or parts of their fanbase, can hold whatever views they want. I see no reason for that to detract from the art itself, or the all-too-real message it portrays.

WHAM, could you briefly clarify which ones you believe to be more accurate? Why and by what margin? At least for me it would help clear up that Nazi sympathizer accusation, one way or the other.

People actually fighting for freedom and equality, such as the more stable parts of the BLM movement, are in my opinion on the more righteous path than someone like Antifa or Qanon.
My short view on the BLM movement is that it has a very good underlying cause and idea (equal opportunity regardless of race, and the end of racial discrimination in the legal system among others), but is marred by its more extreme components and fringe ideas that seem to serve only to discredit the more sensible parts of the movement.

As for Qanon, I don't know that much about their movement, but they seem to just be a particularly active movement built around conspiracy theories and capable of mobilizing their members in real world locations. So far, to my knowledge, their movement doesn't really have any merit whatsoever.

Antifa on the other hand is a reactionary group of self-righteous thugs looking to dehumanize their opponents to justify various forms of violence and destruction under the guise of blind faith in a "good cause" and "saving the world from the nazis".
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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #568 on: 09 Jan 2021, 15:38 »
People actually fighting for freedom and equality, such as the more stable parts of the BLM movement, are in my opinion on the more righteous path than someone like Antifa or Qanon. My short view on the BLM movement is that it has a very good underlying cause and idea (equal opportunity regardless of race, and the end of racial discrimination in the legal system among others).

Alright! Now can we please all agree that nobody who sincerely believes the above is anywhere near a Nazi sympathizer?

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #569 on: 09 Jan 2021, 15:45 »
And the comic you posted is, as it turns out, from an alt-right artist, with other strips that are transphobic, racist, and express Holocaust denial (and with its official forum a Neo-Nazi fan community that was banned from Reddit). Which again, is not permitted here.

The creator of the comic, or parts of their fanbase, can hold whatever views they want. I see no reason for that to detract from the art itself, or the all-too-real message it portrays.
But what of art that clearly reflects the political views of the artist, such as the one you posted?

Also, I may have brought up a personal example from my family history, but far more people than just my family lived through WW2, and you have no way of knowing whether any of the people reading this forum had relatives who survived the holocaust,
and that alone is a strong reason not to use nazi imagery lightly in my book, not to mention any potential neo-nazis seeing it, not knowing you're doing it ironically, and decide nazis should be welcome here.

I've given up on so many other forums because nazism, sexism, racism, and homophobia run rampant without consequences, and it's exactly the modding and rules of the AGS forums that let me express myself without fear of harassment from a dozen anonymous trolls.


Ali

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #570 on: 09 Jan 2021, 15:50 »
People actually fighting for freedom and equality, such as the more stable parts of the BLM movement, are in my opinion on the more righteous path than someone like Antifa or Qanon. My short view on the BLM movement is that it has a very good underlying cause and idea (equal opportunity regardless of race, and the end of racial discrimination in the legal system among others).

Alright! Now can we please all agree that nobody who sincerely believes the above is anywhere near a Nazi sympathizer?

No. I don't agree when the person in question has expressly said that the Nazis were no worse than the opposition in WW2, that criminals are sub-human and that only weak-minded people are horrified by Nazi symbolism. When the person in question JUST shared a political comic strip from a cartoonist who endorses holocaust denial. No, obviously not.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #571 on: 09 Jan 2021, 16:05 »
No. I don't agree when the person in question has expressly said that the Nazis were no worse than the opposition in WW2, that criminals are sub-human and that only weak-minded people are horrified by Nazi symbolism. When the person in question JUST shared a political comic strip from a cartoonist who endorses holocaust denial. No, obviously not.

Funny how my worldviews still hold the same basic principles: just because one side is worse than the other does not mean the other one is not also bad and need to be dealt with accordingly. Oh, and yes, I still also hold the view that the most vile of criminals do deserve to lose their human rights. Difference between people like you and people like me is that I expect there to be inviolable evidence of wrongdoing before a punishment should be laid out, rather than just deciding that someone should be labelled as evil and thus all they say is also automatically evil. The comic does a very good job at illustrating how abusing labels is a way for the most vile people to get their way, in the exact same fashion as certain individuals here are doing things. Isn't it interesting to notice how only one side seems to have to rely on slapping labels on their opponents to justify their abuse, while the other side only has to make reasoned arguments?

Any other topics you'd like to discuss again?

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Ali

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #572 on: 09 Jan 2021, 16:29 »
Difference between people like you and people like me is that I expect there to be inviolable evidence of wrongdoing before a punishment should be laid out, rather than just deciding that someone should be labelled as evil and thus all they say is also automatically evil.

I'm also a critic of the British Empire, US Imperialism and the Soviet Union. I don't think having opposed Nazism makes you a saint. But there's a difference between a morally nuanced reading history and what you said (many years ago) - which is that if the Nazis had won, the Axis forces would be just as demonised now. Nazism represents a distinct and unique evil. There have been many other atrocities in human history, but *weighing* the horrors of the holocaust against others achieves nothing apart from far-right PR.

That cartoonist is not automatically wrong about everything, just because he's a holocaust denier and a so-called 'race realist'. I'm sure he can tell his arse from his elbow. But he is extremely likely to be wrong about everything pertaining to Nazism - because he shares Nazi beliefs.

I don't think I've called for anyone to be punished without evidence of wrongdoing. Perhaps the nub of our disagreement is that I think endorsing Nazi ideas is wrongdoing?

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #573 on: 09 Jan 2021, 16:37 »
Perhaps the nub of our disagreement is that I think endorsing Nazi ideas is wrongdoing?

I see no major disagreement here. Many, even most, ideas held by the Nazis are deeply wrong. They were so at the time, and they remain so today. The ideas that weren't quite so bad could even be argued to not be nazi ideas, but rather older, more deep-rooted ideals of Germany and other historical nations the Nazis adopted.
Most of the things I've said you seem upset about are well over a decade old now, from a time before I turned 18, and when I wrote in far edgier style, using cruder language to represent my ideas. While much of those ideas still hold, such as the belief (now even stronger, the more history books I've read) that the victors write the history they want and will colour it to their liking, they are far more evolved and nuanced nowadays with plenty more reading done and life lived.

I've said this before and will say it again, I'll be happy to discuss views and matters with people at any time. I have Discord for that, as well as many other avenues of communication. Sadly it seems that no matter what opinions I state out in the open on a topic at hand, the end result seems to repeatedly just be me having to defend my character rather than the content of what I have said in the past decade.
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Ali

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #574 on: 09 Jan 2021, 16:42 »
It will shock you to learn that I have also aged over the same period of time. I've even changed some of my views.

But if I had ever diminished the significance of the holocaust, I would apologise for it. If I had just changed my avatar to an SS uniform as a 'joke' I would apologise for it. If I had earlier today defended myself against criticism by sharing a comic strip from a far-right cartoonist - I would be excruciatingly embarrassed and sincerely ashamed.

You can't expect acceptance and forgiveness when all you've done is express the same views in politer and more nuanced terms.
« Last Edit: 09 Jan 2021, 16:46 by Ali »

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #575 on: 09 Jan 2021, 16:49 »
No. I don't agree when the person in question has expressly said that the Nazis were no worse than the opposition in WW2, that criminals are sub-human and that only weak-minded people are horrified by Nazi symbolism. When the person in question JUST shared a political comic strip from a cartoonist who endorses holocaust denial. No, obviously not.

But then you must think that WHAM is being dishonest in the statement I quoted. Is that what you're implying? Because I don't see how anyone who sincerely supports "equal opportunity regardless of race, and the end of racial discrimination in the legal system" can also be a Nazi sympathizer. The two seem mutually exclusive to me.

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #576 on: 09 Jan 2021, 16:54 »
You can't expect acceptance and forgiveness when all you've done is express the same views in politer and more nuanced terms.

I expect no acceptance, since  we disagree on certain topics and hold vastly differing worldviews and historical backgrounds, and thus clearly cannot accept one another's views.
I expect no forgiveness, for I don't believe I have done anything wrong where I would need to be forgiven.

I expect civility and basic human decency, things I am fully willing and able to grant even to people with whom I vehemently disagree and disapprove of.
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Ali

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #577 on: 09 Jan 2021, 16:59 »
But then you must think that WHAM is being dishonest in the statement I quoted. Is that what you're implying? Because I don't see how anyone who sincerely supports "equal opportunity regardless of race, and the end of racial discrimination in the legal system" can also be a Nazi sympathizer. The two seem mutually exclusive to me.

I'm sure WHAM believes in equality and fairness - everyone will tell you they do. For some people "ending racial discrimination" means not fighting the economic inequalities that exist between white and black people.

I don't think WHAM is a card-carrying Nazi, if that's what you mean. He has simply diminished and made excuses for Nazis, while also advancing authoritarian views and misrepresenting left-wing groups. Technically, there's a difference between Nazis and Nazi apologists - but I don't want to spend time around either of them. I'm also not keen on treating WHAM civilly. Because he'll insist that his youthful dalliance with Nazi apologia is a thing of the past, and a moment later say "I don't believe I have done anything wrong."

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #578 on: 09 Jan 2021, 17:01 »
I'm also not keen on treating WHAM civilly.

It's all right, Ali. We can keep up the status quo, where one side act like children angrily calling people names, while the other side keep a cool head and act like adults.
Keep calm and carry on.
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Haggis

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #579 on: 09 Jan 2021, 17:08 »
I also believe he sincerely does not hold those views, and there is a degree of violent agreement here - but these two statements I take issue with:

"I expect no forgiveness, for I don't believe I have done anything wrong where I would need to be forgiven."
"I expect civility and basic human decency, things I am fully willing and able to grant even to people with whom I vehemently disagree and disapprove of."

You expect others to treat you civilly and with human decency, yet, when you use an image or argument that may be deeply offensive to others for various reasons and they have expressed that, even if your aim was not to offend, you are indicating you don't have the decency to at the very least apologise to them for doing so. I'm not saying you have to apologise - i'm just saying you expect others to treat you in a way you maybe don't treat them.