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Author Topic: Trumpmageddon  (Read 84493 times)

Ali

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #580 on: 09 Jan 2021, 17:11 »
It's all right, Ali. We can keep up the status quo, where one side act like children angrily calling people names, while the other side keep a cool head and act like adults.
Keep calm and carry on.

I remain unimpressed by the fact that you can adopt a lofty, disinterested tone. Being calm and polite isn't the same thing as being rational.

We ought to have an emotional reaction towards racism, inequality, mass murder. It's not irrational to feel passionately about politics. If you can look at the holocaust and keep a "cool head" - I deeply mistrust you.

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #581 on: 09 Jan 2021, 17:25 »
I'm sure WHAM believes in equality and fairness - everyone will tell you they do. For some people "ending racial discrimination" means not fighting the economic inequalities that exist between white and black people.

Well, "the end of racial discrimination in the legal system" acknowledges there currently is racial discrimination, which is more than many right-wingers or libertarians would grant you. And those, however I personally disagree with them, still have very little to do with actual Nazis. The fact that some Nazis pose as moderates and hijack their ideas to gain legitimacy is a different issue - it would be relevant only if you don't take what WHAM is saying at face value.

But I see I'm probably missing some context here, you guys are talking about posts dating many years back, I obviously can't speak to that.

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #582 on: 09 Jan 2021, 17:27 »
WHAM, you can't blame things on youthful naivité when you wrote the stuff people are complaining about earlier this day.
It's all right, Ali. We can keep up the status quo, where one side act like children angrily calling people names, while the other side keep a cool head and act like adults.
Keep calm and carry on.

I remain unimpressed by the fact that you can adopt a lofty, disinterested tone. Being calm and polite isn't the same thing as being rational.

We ought to have an emotional reaction towards racism, inequality, mass murder. It's not irrational to feel passionately about politics. If you can look at the holocaust and keep a "cool head" - I deeply mistrust you.
My thoughts exactly, it's easy to stay calm when you've no horse in the race, but if you're a minority or a woman, any group that's faced a long history of very real oppression because of something you were born into,
it's immensely hard to stay polite towards people defending an ideology that treats you as a subhuman.

Also, rational and passionate need not be exclusive, just watch this speech:


WHAM

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #583 on: 09 Jan 2021, 17:29 »
Oh, if I could stop the holocaust, I'd be far more active and far less "cool headed". Turns out it happened long before I was born, so I've very little I can do about it other than study, understand and learn from it. Hell, I've walked through that iron "Arbeit Macht Frei" gate and see the memorials in person.
The thing we have to understand is that we are talking of history here, not current day events, and the US presidential elections aren't exactly world-ending matters outside of certain political and media circles in the US.

As someone else already pointed out in this very thread, the impact of the US on a global scale is diminishing and the rest of the world needs to think for themselves, rather than cling to cold war era ideas of the US always being there to rescue us from the next crisis.
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: One More Fathom!

Ali

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #584 on: 09 Jan 2021, 17:45 »
Well, "the end of racial discrimination in the legal system" acknowledges there currently is racial discrimination, which is more than many right-wingers or libertarians would grant you. And those, however I personally disagree with them, still have very little to do with actual Nazis. The fact that some Nazis pose as moderates and hijack their ideas to gain legitimacy is a different issue - it would be relevant only if you don't take what WHAM is saying at face value.

If I can give you an example of what I mean - the South African government provides financial support for black-owned businesses. Clearly, in a literal sense, this is racially discriminatory. On the other hand, white people (a small minority) still hold the vast majority of South Africa's land and wealth. So, depending on your interpretation, ending this 'discriminatory' law would reinforce the existing racial inequality.

I'm not saying this is WHAM's view, of course. I'm just explaining why most of the right-wingers and libertarians I can think of claim to be in favour of fairness and equality, and against racial discrimination.

KyriakosCH

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #585 on: 09 Jan 2021, 18:53 »
Ok, seems AGS is not immune to this kind of fighting.
I wonder which forum would be. Maybe something even more hipsterish, like a discussion board for DIY exotic beehives or something  :=

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #586 on: 09 Jan 2021, 20:36 »
If I can give you an example of what I mean - the South African government provides financial support for black-owned businesses. Clearly, in a literal sense, this is racially discriminatory. On the other hand, white people (a small minority) still hold the vast majority of South Africa's land and wealth. So, depending on your interpretation, ending this 'discriminatory' law would reinforce the existing racial inequality.

I'm not saying this is WHAM's view, of course. I'm just explaining why most of the right-wingers and libertarians I can think of claim to be in favour of fairness and equality, and against racial discrimination.

Sure, I know what you mean! I suppose I'll leave it up to WHAM if he wants to clarify. So far I still think some of the opinions he's expressed (annoying rational-adults-vs-snowflake-children posing aside) are totally inconsistent with being a Nazi apologist. Just your regular edgy right-winger/moderate. But maybe I'm being naive.

WHAM

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #587 on: 09 Jan 2021, 21:10 »
Sure, I know what you mean! I suppose I'll leave it up to WHAM if he wants to clarify.

I am a proponent for equal opportunity in western societies, but not for the enforcement of equal outcome.
South Africa is a state I am not well familiar with, so I can't really say much on it. All I know the history there is a bloody mess in every sense of the word.
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: One More Fathom!

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #588 on: 09 Jan 2021, 21:24 »
I am a proponent for equal opportunity in western societies, but not for the enforcement of equal outcome.

So when you wrote about agreeing with BLM on "the end of racial discrimination", what exactly did you have in mind? What racial discrimination is there that should be ended?

WHAM

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #589 on: 09 Jan 2021, 21:31 »
In the US there appears to be some deeply rooted racial discrimination and issues they really need to deal with. The fact that the country has a subset of populace still clinging to the idea of blacks as second-class citizens speaks volumes of the low level of education in some areas, and I have a feeling it might well play a major role in driving the unrest in the country in general. There appears to also be a range of attempts to "fix" the issue that appear foolish to me at best, such as granting blacks preferential treatment in areas of higher education, where merit and ability should be the key factors, not skin colour. Then again, the US has a long history of making a wide range of questionable policies based on race.

This is a rather uneducated read on the situation, however. I know several Americans and have discussed the topics with them, learning from them, along with reading history and news, but I am by no means an expert on American politics or racial history. The above is just a short version of how I see American racial politics as they are playing out today.
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: One More Fathom!

Ali

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #590 on: 09 Jan 2021, 22:36 »
While there is a correlation between conservative views and a lack of education, I think it's unreasonable to suggest that racism is a consequence of low levels of education. Going to university doesn't stop you being racist. There have always been academics  willing to put science and philosophy to work in the service of racist ideologies.

The president is clearly a very stupid man, but he's a stupid man with a very expensive education. His appeal to racists is obvious. But while ~69% of his support in 2016 came from people without a college education, ~70% of the US population doesn't have a college degree. He was no more or less popular among "uneducated" people. Incidentally. "Equality of outcomes" is a goal you will almost never hear a left-wing person discussing, it's a conservative/alt-right fantasy that Marxist academics are determined to achieve equality by disadvantaging truly talented, high-IQ people (who, by sheer coincidence, tend to be wealthy white men) in favour of less able candidates (who by sheer coincidence, tend not to be).

What "Equality of Opportunity not Equality of Outcome" means is "Against racism. Against doing literally anything to tackle racism." This is, unfortunately, fairly a standard right-wing belief. Not something that makes you a Nazi apologist. See: I can tell the difference.
« Last Edit: 09 Jan 2021, 22:51 by Ali »

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #591 on: 09 Jan 2021, 23:08 »
What "Equality of Opportunity not Equality of Outcome" means is "Against racism. Against doing literally anything to tackle racism." This is, unfortunately, fairly a standard right-wing belief. Not something that makes you a Nazi apologist. See: I can tell the difference.
True, plenty run of the mill libertarians and people with the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mentality say the same thing, but just because it's not nazism doesn't mean it's not stupid. You can't pretend centuries of oppression hasn't had any long-term consequences
and it'll just go away just because the most egregious laws upholding the oppression have been abolished, it's like expecting a cancer patient who's been wasting away for years to get up and play football straight after ten minutes of chemotherapy.

WHAM, if you can take all this time arguing in this thread, you really should take the time to watch the speech by Kimberly Jones I posted a couple of posts back, it's like 5 minutes long but she really explains it all.


Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #592 on: 10 Jan 2021, 00:25 »
But while ~69% of his support in 2016 came from people without a college education, ~70% of the US population doesn't have a college degree. He was no more or less popular among "uneducated" people.

This seems to say otherwise?


(somewhat relieved if that's true, it would be worrying if education had no effect on supporting Trump)

Also to stop just being a WHAM apologist :) and add my two cents, I agree (at least from what I know, which is not that much to be honest ;)) that black people are currently disadvantaged as a consequence of extreme discrimination in the past and perhaps some prevailing discrimination in the present. So it's the "equality of opportunity" part that's being disputed, many people see a different starting point as unequal opportunity. Nobody I know of wants equality of outcome, that's a fringe, far-left idea.

Where I might disagree with many lefties are specific policies aiming to fix that. I think racial bias (i.e. "people treat you differently because of your skin color") should only be fought with anti-racist education and cannot be compensated financially or by preferential treatment. Social/financial disadvantages can be remedied with appropriate investments, but programs aiming to do that shouldn't be centered around skin color. If someone believes that black descendants of slaves deserve more support than equally poor and socially disadvantaged white descendants of, say, criminals and alcoholics (because the ancestors of the former were oppressed and abused while the ancestors of the latter were the abusers and any misfortune they got is their own fault), that's where our moral intuitions would diverge.
« Last Edit: 10 Jan 2021, 00:34 by Honza »

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #593 on: 10 Jan 2021, 01:29 »
[redacted] on second thought, nevermind :)
« Last Edit: 10 Jan 2021, 02:29 by Crimson Wizard »

Ali

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #594 on: 10 Jan 2021, 02:20 »
This seems to say otherwise?
Spoiler: ShowHide


Yes, of course, Clinton was more popular than Trump among people with a college education so perhaps it's confusing/wrong for me to say he was "neither popular nor unpopular". The source I read came from a different poll, but your numbers still show about 29% of his support coming from college-educated voters. Since that's close to the proportion of college-educated voters in the population (and among registered Republicans) I don't think it's right to say he was more popular among non-college educated voters, since they were about as likely to vote for him as college-educated people.

Again, I'd dispute equality of outcome being a far-left idea. It's a conservative caricature of what a far-left idea is. It would be like me saying conservatism means "we love guns and hate poor people."

I think trying to address racial inequality without acknowledging class is a mistake - "More Black billionaires" won't give us equality of opportunity. But similarly, I think it would be impossible to address social inequality without acknowledging that class inequalities often divide along racial lines. Of course we should try to educate ourselves about racism - but we've known that being poor is awful and unfair for centuries, and we haven't eradicated poverty. We can't expect racism to evaporate once everyone has heard it's bad.
« Last Edit: 10 Jan 2021, 02:34 by Ali »

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #595 on: 10 Jan 2021, 06:46 »
I don't think it's right to say he was more popular among non-college educated voters, since they were about as likely to vote for him as college-educated people.

If I'm interpreting the numbers correctly, there was about 36% chance you'd vote for Trump if you were college educated and about 50% chance if you weren't (the difference being even bigger if you were white). What am I getting wrong here? The article you're linking seems to argue that the education difference doesn't indicate a wealth/class difference, it doesn't deny that there was an education difference (just skimmed it, might be missing something).

Again, I'd dispute equality of outcome being a far-left idea. It's a conservative caricature of what a far-left idea is. It would be like me saying conservatism means "we love guns and hate poor people."

Well, it would be more like you saying conservatism means "every man for himself, social support is against the natural order", which is a somewhat more fitting caricature :). But ok, I suppose "equality of outcome" might be a misrepresentation even when it comes to fringe ideas. I saw it as a theoretical extreme of the spectrum. I agree it's often used to strawman people on the left.

EDIT: I'll leave the rest unanswered, I can agree with you in broad terms, but we would probably disagree on what "acknowledging that class inequalities often divide along racial lines" entails in practice. But this rabbit hole is already deep enough, let's bring it back to the original topic :).
« Last Edit: 10 Jan 2021, 10:37 by Honza »

WHAM

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #596 on: 10 Jan 2021, 10:51 »
I'm not claiming education is the ONLY cause or ONLY solution. It's a notable one, though. The topic of how to get a nation with a history of division, built-into-the-very-system racism and an actual civil war fought in large part over this very matter is not something I can easily cover in a single forum post, as it's a topic entire academic papers, studies and books have been written about. One fact to consider is that we are talking about changing how people think, and that will take generations to happen. Any attempt to force people to change their thinking and beliefs in an instant is, as we've seen in the US, liable to cause a major backlash that might get a populist president elected or do some other great harm to the greater society in the end (and hell, I'm saying this as a person who still thinks Trump was better than Clinton by a wide margin). It's a change that happens slowly, over time, as new better educated generations with a better understanding of the world replace the old, and can only be accomplished if the underlying systems of law, justice, education and governance act as a suitable bed for such a change, rather than a system that enforces the old style of thinking.
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Ali

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #597 on: 10 Jan 2021, 11:17 »
If I'm interpreting the numbers correctly, there was about 36% chance you'd vote for Trump if you were college educated and about 50% chance if you weren't (the difference being even bigger if you were white). What am I getting wrong here?

I'm hardly a statistician, so apologies if I'm wrong or repeating myself here. But those figures suggest that college-educated people disproportionately voted for Clinton. And college-educated people are probably more likely to vote in general.

But the ratio of college-educated to non-college educated Trump voters in 2016 roughly matched the general population. So if 7/10 Americans don't have a college degree and 7/10 Trump voters don't have a degree that doesn't seem to show him being disproportionately popular among less educated people. A randomly selected college-educated American (though more likely to vote for Clinton) would be about as likely to vote for Trump as a randomly selected non-college educated American.

Perhaps the relevant passage from the WaPo will clear this up:

although more than 70 percent of Trump supporters didn’t have college degrees, when we looked at the NBC polling data, we noticed something the pundits left out: during the primaries, about 70 percent of all Republicans didn’t have college degrees, close to the national average (71 percent according to the 2013 Census). Far from being a magnet for the less educated, Trump seemed to have about as many people without college degrees in his camp as we would expect any successful Republican candidate to have.
« Last Edit: 10 Jan 2021, 11:38 by Ali »

Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #598 on: 10 Jan 2021, 12:31 »
although more than 70 percent of Trump supporters didn’t have college degrees, when we looked at the NBC polling data, we noticed something the pundits left out: during the primaries, about 70 percent of all Republicans didn’t have college degrees, close to the national average (71 percent according to the 2013 Census). Far from being a magnet for the less educated, Trump seemed to have about as many people without college degrees in his camp as we would expect any successful Republican candidate to have.

Ok, so let's see if I get this. I'm not a statistician either, but the numbers you are quoting might to correspond to the 50% I'm mentioning? If you are uneducated, you are as likely to vote for Trump as you are for Hillary. But once you become educated, you also become far less likely to vote for Trump, only 36%. Does that make sense?

("once you become educated, you also become far less likely" is technically an unwarranted assumption by the way, correlation doesn't equal causation yada yada, I'm simplifying for dramatic effect ;)).

EDIT: Ok, on second thought it probably doesn't make sense :). Tempted to delete this post, but I'll leave it in case somebody's already reacting. But then I don't know how to reconcile my numbers with yours - what's the relationship between the "57% educated voting for Hillary/36% educated voting for Trump" ratio and the proportion of uneducated Trump voters matching the proportion in the general population? How can both be true?
« Last Edit: 10 Jan 2021, 13:02 by Honza »

Ali

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Re: Trumpmageddon
« Reply #599 on: 10 Jan 2021, 13:13 »
I'd welcome corrections on my sums here:

In the Pew figures, College grads represent 37% of the electorate. 36% of College grads voted Trump, so that's around 13% of the electorate (36% of 37%).

Trump's total vote represented 45% of the electorate, and around 13% of those voters were graduates - around 29%. So there's a roughly 70-30 split among Trump voters, which is not far from the national average / Republican average.

So, I'm comparing how likely college-educated and non-college educated people were to vote for Trump. I'm not comparing how popular Trump was in comparison with Clinton in those groups.
« Last Edit: 10 Jan 2021, 13:38 by Ali »