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Author Topic: Left/Right clicking  (Read 1277 times)

Slasher

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Left/Right clicking
« on: 17 Nov 2018, 18:41 »
Left click LOOK / Right click INTERACT
or
Left click INTERACT / Right click LOOK

?


Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #1 on: 17 Nov 2018, 19:25 »
Add a switch to let players choose for themselves?

Slasher

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #2 on: 18 Nov 2018, 09:21 »
Add a switch to let players choose for themselves?
That sounds like a very good plan (nod)

Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #3 on: 19 Nov 2018, 11:39 »
Left click INTERACT / Right click LOOK

That's the classic BASS interface and people are used to it. Doing it the other way around is very counter-intuitive and might confuse players a lot. Of course, adding a switch would be ok, but I'd make BASS the initial/standard setting.

Radiant

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #4 on: 19 Nov 2018, 11:52 »
That's the classic BASS interface and people are used to it.
Perhaps surprisingly, a lot of modern gameplayers have never played (or barely heard of) BASS.

As several AGS authors have discovered, numerous players will not realize that the right mouse button does anything, unless you make this abundantly clear in a tutorial (or perhas with a config switch like this one). It's not good design to assume that players will be intuitively familiar with the interface of one particular classic.

Danvzare

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #5 on: 19 Nov 2018, 13:05 »
That's the classic BASS interface and people are used to it.
Perhaps surprisingly, a lot of modern gameplayers have never played (or barely heard of) BASS.

As several AGS authors have discovered, numerous players will not realize that the right mouse button does anything, unless you make this abundantly clear in a tutorial (or perhas with a config switch like this one). It's not good design to assume that players will be intuitively familiar with the interface of one particular classic.
To avoid that problem, you can either make the mouse cursor reveal what you can look at and what you can interact with, in a similar way to how Deponia did it, as well as quite a few other games. Or you can just have one of the earliest puzzles in the game require you to look at something.

Also, maybe it's just me. But I doubt many modern gameplayers who play adventure games, haven't heard of BASS. That's like being into old movies, and not knowing about Casablanca.
If you haven't realised, we're talking about a niche genre.

From what I've heard the previous times this has been brought up, the majority of people who don't use the right mouse button to look, are people who are just following a walkthrough. Usually reviewers.
Although that being said, my little brother doesn't use the right mouse button either, and I have to keep reminding him it's there. So I've just invalidated my entire opinion. (laugh)

Ali

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #6 on: 19 Nov 2018, 13:12 »
As several AGS authors have discovered, numerous players will not realize that the right mouse button does anything, unless you make this abundantly clear in a tutorial

Seconded. Even if you do, they will still never right-click and then complain that puzzles don't make sense. The kids don't right-click!

Cassiebsg

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #7 on: 19 Nov 2018, 13:56 »
Which is why I prefer the clicks the other way around. Left click = walk+look and right click to interact. That avoids "accidental" interactions and makes the interaction a concious decision. That said I can't even remember if I change the default of the BASS when I use it for MAGS games... (laugh)(roll)
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Mandle

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #8 on: 19 Nov 2018, 14:49 »
The kids don't right-click!

Or ever right-swipe in my experie... ahem... as far as I know.

selmiak

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #9 on: 19 Nov 2018, 16:59 »
Left click INTERACT / Right click LOOK

That's the classic BASS interface and people are used to it. Doing it the other way around is very counter-intuitive and might confuse players a lot. Of course, adding a switch would be ok, but I'd make BASS the initial/standard setting.

sorry to disappoint you, but it's not, in beneath a steel sky you use/pick up with RMB and walk/look with LMB. both mouth buttons let you talk to a character. I took these notes a thousand years ago

cassie has a point with no accidental interactions but I'm so used to AGS BASS that it seems more intuitive to me now.

Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #10 on: 20 Nov 2018, 11:58 »
sorry to disappoint you, but it's not, in beneath a steel sky you use/pick up with RMB and walk/look with LMB. both mouth buttons let you talk to a character. I took these notes a thousand years ago

Oops, I always thought it was the other way around :-[ My bad for not having played the game..

Perhaps surprisingly, a lot of modern gameplayers have never played (or barely heard of) BASS.

As several AGS authors have discovered, numerous players will not realize that the right mouse button does anything, unless you make this abundantly clear in a tutorial (or perhas with a config switch like this one). It's not good design to assume that players will be intuitively familiar with the interface of one particular classic.

I know, but I'm talking about adventure game players, and regardless of whether they've played BASS or not, I thought that left click = interact / right click = look is pretty common two-click interface. Maybe it's just me, but the majority of games that I've played that use a two-click interface have left click as interact.

I've read about those young, modern players not using the right click at all (wrong), but the question was only about the two options. And wouldn't it be even worse if right click was interact, but the players wouldn't use it at all? Anyway, as long as I don't work on something commercial, I refuse to make an adventure suited for people playing it on a subway train trip on their smartphone..

Danvzare

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #11 on: 20 Nov 2018, 13:28 »
I know, but I'm talking about adventure game players, and regardless of whether they've played BASS or not, I thought that left click = interact / right click = look is pretty common two-click interface. Maybe it's just me, but the majority of games that I've played that use a two-click interface have left click as interact.

I've read about those young, modern players not using the right click at all (wrong), but the question was only about the two options.
Well I can't say which version is more intuitive. Only which one I'm more used to, because it's more common among modern games. Which is that left click interacts, and right click looks at.
We can only hypothesise as to which is better.
Presumably, if left click looks, people are going to attempt a right click. But what if they never attempt a right click, and they quit the game thinking it doesn't work?
Then there's the possibility that once they realise that right click interacts, they'll just instinctively right click on everything. Because it is possible that people simply don't see the point in "looking" at things.
Or maybe everyone's first thought is right, and people simply don't realise there's a right mouse button.
We can't assume any of these things. Although it seems to me that most people are assuming that last point is true.

Speaking of young modern players. Are there any young modern players actively playing adventure games?
I get the feeling I'm going to get more Chinese people to play my games, than anyone under twenty. (laugh)
« Last Edit: 20 Nov 2018, 15:44 by Danvzare »

tzachs

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #12 on: 20 Nov 2018, 16:33 »
But what if they never attempt a right click, and they quit the game thinking it doesn't work?
That will totally happen.
I remember that I quit my first verb coin game because it hadn't occurred to me to click & hold, so I thought the game was broken.

Speaking of young modern players. Are there any young modern players actively playing adventure games?
Young enough for you? (laugh)
Note that he never right clicked once in that video (not to mention the obsessive dialog skipping which you can't really design a solution for unless you're going Machinarium style).

Monsieur OUXX

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #13 on: 20 Nov 2018, 18:14 »
There have been numerous discussions about that recently, and with the rise of smartphones, now there's a consensus that there should be only one click (left click).
I suppose that's why Wadjet eye now has the "look at" directly displayed when you hover, without even clicking. I personally hate that, but I understand where they're coming from.
The alternative is verbcoin, but without having to hold. The left click opens the coin and a second left-click selects the action.
« Last Edit: 22 Nov 2018, 13:16 by Monsieur OUXX »
 

Danvzare

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #14 on: 21 Nov 2018, 11:49 »
Young enough for you? (laugh)
Note that he never right clicked once in that video (not to mention the obsessive dialog skipping which you can't really design a solution for unless you're going Machinarium style).
Yep, that's young enough. Quite surprising as well. I wonder what percentage of the adventure gaming audience is made of kids that age. ???
Also there is a design solution to dialog skipping. It's called a voicepack (I'm assuming the game in the video doesn't have voices, the computer I'm currently using doesn't have speakers). People (especially kids) don't tend to skip dialog when it's being told to them. At least in my experience.

The alternative is verbcoin, but without having to hold. The left click opens the coin and a second left-click selects the action.
Not that there's anything wrong with two clicks. (After all, the 9-verb system requires two clicks) The real problem in my opinion, comes from the inventory. Without having hold, you can't really use the verb coin in the inventory screen in a comfortable way. And that's coming from someone who usually likes verb coins!
But we've had this conversation countless times, and this thread is about the left/right click interface. :-D



Also, I'd like to reiterate. Are we sure people are simply forgetting that there's a right mouse button?
Because it's quite possible that kids nowadays just don't see the point in using the "look at" command. Because they just see it as meaningless fluff, like with the aforementioned dialog skipping.

I'd like to point to my little brother (who's ten), he never right clicks on anything, and he always skips dialog that isn't spoken. But if there is for example, a drawer which you can open and close with the left mouse button, he will instantly try the right mouse button once he realises that the left will just close it again. I've never seen him use a look command in any of the other interfaces where it is possible (9-verb, verb coin), and he's quite competent with a computer in general, and knows to use the right mouse button on Windows to open up a context menu (which he does do a lot to find the root folder of programs).

Does anyone else have any anecdotal evidence? (And yes, I know anecdotal evidence is practically worthless, which is why I'm asking for statements that contradict or compliment mine.)
« Last Edit: 21 Nov 2018, 12:08 by Danvzare »

tzachs

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #15 on: 21 Nov 2018, 12:29 »
(I'm assuming the game in the video doesn't have voices, the computer I'm currently using doesn't have speakers).
It does have voices (admittedly not very good ones though, so maybe he skipped because he was irritated).

Also, I'd like to reiterate. Are we sure people are simply forgetting that there's a right mouse button?
Does anyone else have any anecdotal evidence?
Same game, different reviewer. He didn't right click at all. He actually sounded about 30 years old, so you would assume he would know about right clicking.
But he got stuck a few times, and STILL didn't right click. I mean, I can understand why some people choose not to look at things during normal gameplay, but if you're hopelessly stuck to the point that you try everything on everything, you would try looking at things if you knew it was an option.

Danvzare

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Re: Left/Right clicking
« Reply #16 on: 22 Nov 2018, 13:13 »
(I'm assuming the game in the video doesn't have voices, the computer I'm currently using doesn't have speakers).
It does have voices (admittedly not very good ones though, so maybe he skipped because he was irritated).

Also, I'd like to reiterate. Are we sure people are simply forgetting that there's a right mouse button?
Does anyone else have any anecdotal evidence?
Same game, different reviewer. He didn't right click at all. He actually sounded about 30 years old, so you would assume he would know about right clicking.
But he got stuck a few times, and STILL didn't right click. I mean, I can understand why some people choose not to look at things during normal gameplay, but if you're hopelessly stuck to the point that you try everything on everything, you would try looking at things if you knew it was an option.
Ok then. That answered my question. :-D
Thanks.

So far the only solutions I've seen is to either have a tutorial which forces you to use the right mouse button.
Or have the left mouse button look, and the right mouse button use. Preferably with an option to switch for those of us who know how to use the right mouse button.
Is there any other way?
Perhaps have a few parts early on in the game where you absolutely HAVE to look to move forward. Incorporating puzzles for that look command. (Something which creators clearly aren't doing, if people are completing their games without using the right mouse button once.)
What about a pop-up message to annoy anyone who never presses the right mouse button. It could pop-up every minute until you press the right mouse button, in which case it instead waits ten minutes until you click it again (unless it pops up, in which case it's back to one minute).