International Women's Day

[Ali]

..it amazes me that people still question "girl gamers."

The reason for that can be seen pretty easily if you go on a game streaming site like Twitch, which has basically turned into a loosely game-affiliated softcore porn site thanks to a relatively small number of women abusing audiences of young males.

Do you mean women-abusing? Or are you saying women on Twitch are abusing young men?

[Snarky]

I'm guessing he's trying to say that female Twitch stars are exploiting horny guys by playing on sex in their livestreams.

[WHAM]

I'm guessing he's trying to say that female Twitch stars are exploiting horny guys by playing on sex in their livestreams.

Mostly this. The appearance of so-called "twitch-thots" along with other camgirl services has given rise to phenomenon such as FinDom and other forms of abuse that is harmful to the viewers, which happen to be primarily young lonely men, because those happen to play a lot of videogames. (Because the majority of women tend to view gaming as a negative thing rather than as a fun hobby, oddly enough.)

The only instance where I could see these women as being the subject of abuse are cases where they are forced to perform, which is a thing that happens in some parts of the world, too. Saw a documentary recently of cam-girls in eastern Europe, where some were forced by societal pressure or simply lack of other job opportunities to sell themselves, digitally.

"Twitch-thots" are another thing I'd imagine is quite harmful to the image of women in gaming. It makes female gamers appear vapid and money-oriented, rather than interested in the hobby of gaming. They tend to use games as a vehicle to advertise themselves for monetary gain. Meanwhile, their audience, and the male gamers in general, appear as mindless apes drooling over every sliver of bare skin displayed on screen, while sending money to these cam-girls and begging for them to be their "e-girlfriends". Plenty of cases seen already where these "Twitch-thots" are selling themselves. "Pay me 20 dollars and I'll play Overwatch with you for an hour". It often comes off as quite predatory, considering the young target audience age.

On one hand I find it quite distasteful, but on the other it's a matter of supply and demand, so I don't really know how to solve the issue. It's not my place to tell people not to enjoy titty-streamers or to stop people from streaming their bodies alongside some game footage, either.

EDIT: Fixed a poor wording

[Ben X]

the majority of women tend to view gaming as a negative thing

Ha ha, what?

This has been a very useful thread for identifying elements in this community to avoid. Thanks to Ali, Snarky et al for speaking up against them <3

[Ali]

The appearance of so-called "twitch-thots" along with other camgirl services has given rise to phenomenon such as FinDom and other forms of abuse that is harmful to the viewers, which happen to be primarily young lonely men, because those happen to play a lot of videogames. (Because the majority of women tend to view gaming as a negative thing rather than as a fun hobby, oddly enough.)

I think this is very revealing. There's a really interesting article written by psychologists in the 80s called The Metaphorical Logic of Rape, which I should warn has disturbing content. But I implore anyone with an interest to read it, because it's fascinating and relevant. Saying that women are "abusing" men by being sexy on a gaming website isn't literal. Just like when we say a woman is "a knock-out" we don't literally mean she knocked us out. But an unwitting consequence of these linguistic choices is that they allow us to significantly re-configure sequences of events in reality.

- I'm not sexually attracted to this woman - this woman is DOING SOMETHING to me with her sexuality.
- I'm not choosing to watch this Twitch stream - the women running this twitch stream is ABUSING me with her sexuality.

The woman becomes the instigator, and men's actions - arousal, harassment or, more mildly, a refusal to believe in girl gamers - become much more reasonable reactions. Instead of holding Person A responsible for their actions, it seems much more reasonable to hold Person A's victim responsible. After all, the victim started it. The bad girl gamers ruined the reputation of girl gamers. The bad immigrants ruined the reputation of immigrants. The women haters and racists are no longer instigators of abuse, they're simply reacting.

This is all perfectly logical, and can be presented cooly and clearly by someone like WHAM. But it diverges from reality as much as Jack's conspiratorial mutterings. And it's much more dangerous, because it sounds so reasonable.

EDIT: To avoid clogging up the thread by replying to WHAM:

Yes, cases of online bullying and exploitation are actually abusive - even when women do them. But you've conflated:

- Women who actually exploit people online
- Women on twitch
- And girl gamers.

You've allowed yourself to squeeze all those groups into one. You're holding all of them responsible for what a minority do, and you're justifying abuse directed towards any of them.

[WHAM]

Ha ha, what?

This has been a very useful thread for identifying elements in this community to avoid. Thanks to Ali, Snarky et al for speaking up against them <3

You have no idea how many times I've seen in my own social circles how women complain of their husbands or boyfriends playing games and how they see it as "childish" or "a waste of time".
Sure, there are plenty of female gamers, but at least in the current and past generations they seem to be a minority still. Future generations may well close up the gap, though.

The woman becomes the instigator, and men's actions - arousal, harassment or, more mildly, a refusal to believe in girl gamers - become much more reasonable reactions. Instead of holding Person A responsible for their actions, it seems much more reasonable to hold Person A's victim responsible. After all, the victim started it. The bad girl gamers ruined the reputation of girl gamers. The bad immigrants ruined the reputation of immigrants. The women haters and racists are no longer instigators of abuse, they're simply reacting.

This is all perfectly logical, and can be presented cooly and clearly by someone like WHAM. But it diverges from reality as much as Jack's conspiratorial mutterings. And it's much more dangerous, because it sounds so reasonable.

Fair enough, perhaps a better choise of words could work here, but you do realize that people can get addicted to social interaction? Especially if their avenues for that interaction are limited. This makes real cases of abuse, where a viewer is so invested in the person they are watching and thus easily exploited for money or other means, quite real.

Have you ever watched a video of a teenage kid on a skype call crying his eyes out, because his "Runescape e-girlfriend" told him as a joke to shave his head and now he's bald and being laughed at? That's some nasty stuff.

[Snarky]

Mostly this. The appearance of so-called "twitch-thots" along with other camgirl services has given rise to phenomenon such as FinDom and other forms of abuse that is harmful to the viewers, which happen to be primarily young lonely men, because those happen to play a lot of videogames. (Because the majority of women tend to view gaming as a negative thing rather than as a fun hobby, oddly enough.)

The only instance where I could see these women as being the subject of abuse are cases where they are forced to perform, which is a thing that happens in some parts of the world, too. Saw a documentary recently of cam-girls in eastern Europe, where some were forced by societal pressure or simply lack of other job opportunities to sell themselves, digitally.

I don't think it's just in economically deprived regions of Eastern Europe where women are pressured to play on sex appeal in order to attract an audience, even if the activity itself (sport, music, comedy, gaming, whatever) has little direct connection to sex...

If Twitch turned into a soft-porn cam site, is that because every woman who tried her hand at livestreaming really wanted to be a "Twitch-thot", or because horny dudes disproportionately gave attention to and rewarded a few who did (or who felt they had to), and drove away most of the rest with sexual (and other) harassment? So who's exploiting who? (Actually, that's not the most important question: it's agreeing that the cultural and societal forces that lead to such gendered patterns of exploitation should be identified and addressed. We call that point of view feminism.)

[Ben X]

You have no idea how many times I've seen in my own social circles how women complain of their husbands or boyfriends playing games and how they see it as "childish" or "a waste of time".

You have no idea how many women in my own social circles are gamers and/or have a neutral to positive view of gaming. Almost 100%, in fact.

[WHAM]

I don't think it's just in economically deprived regions of Eastern Europe where women are pressured to play on sex appeal in order to attract an audience, even if the activity itself (sport, music, comedy, gaming, whatever) has little direct connection to sex...

If Twitch turned into a soft-porn cam site, is that because every woman who tried her hand at livestreaming really wanted to be a "Twitch-thot", or because horny dudes disproportionately gave attention to and rewarded a few who did (or who felt they had to), and drove away most of the rest with sexual (and other) harassment? So who's exploiting who? (Actually, that's not the most important question: it's agreeing that the cultural and societal forces that lead to such gendered patterns of exploitation should be identified and addressed. We call that point of view feminism.)

I think the horny dudes came in first, pestering the initial female streamers and gamers, and where demand exists, supply follows. These then feed one another, as with any supply/demand situation.
In cases where both participants are adults participating voluntarily, it's tricky to say if it's actually harmful or just a natural business transaction. When one side of the transaction is underaged and impressionable, paying tens or hundreds of dollars to get to talk to a female streamer, I'd start to lean toward the "this is probably harmful to someone" -camp.

You have no idea how many women in my own social circles are gamers and/or have a neutral to positive view of gaming. Almost 100%, in fact.

Sounds like you've had it good. I've only been lucky enough to encounter a handful of female gamers.
I'm curious, though, what's the rough age range of those friends? I my case we are talking mostly of people aged 26-40 or so.

Yes, cases of online bullying and exploitation are actually abusive - even when women do them. But you've conflated:

- Women who actually exploit people online
- Women on twitch
- And girl gamers.

You've allowed yourself to squeeze all those groups into one. You're holding all of them responsible for what a minority do, and you're justifying abuse directed towards any of them.

I'd say there is overlap and interaction between all of the groups, but I wouldn't say those groups are all the same. Not all women who are on twitch exploit people. Not all female gamers are on twitch. Not all... etc etc.
What I tried to point out was that the actions of the few were tainting the view of the whole group, when that is not fair or reasonable. Such correlations just tend to be what we human beings do. See for example: someone shoots up a school = all gun owners come under scrutiny.
It'd be a lot more fluid to have these conversations in person or voice. Typing does tend to result in condensing of the topic, and thus easily distorting of meaning.

[milkanannan]

The appearance of so-called "twitch-thots" along with other camgirl services has given rise to phenomenon such as FinDom and other forms of abuse that is harmful to the viewers, which happen to be primarily young lonely men, because those happen to play a lot of videogames. (Because the majority of women tend to view gaming as a negative thing rather than as a fun hobby, oddly enough.)

I think this is very revealing. There's a really interesting article written by psychologists in the 80s called The Metaphorical Logic of Rape, which I should warn has disturbing content. But I implore anyone with an interest to read it, because it's fascinating and relevant. Saying that women are "abusing" men by being sexy on a gaming website isn't literal. Just like when we say a woman is "a knock-out" we don't literally mean she knocked us out. But an unwitting consequence of these linguistic choices is that they allow us to significantly re-configure sequences of events in reality.

- I'm not sexually attracted to woman A - woman A is DOING SOMETHING to me with her sexuality.
- I'm not choosing to watch this Twitch stream - the women running this twitch stream is ABUSING me with her sexuality.

The woman becomes the instigator, and men's actions - arousal, harassment or, more mildly, a refusal to believe in girl gamers - become much more reasonable reactions. Instead of holding Person A responsible for their actions, it seems much more reasonable to hold Person A's victim responsible. After all, the victim started it. The bad girl gamers ruined the reputation of girl gamers. The bad immigrants ruined the reputation of immigrants. The women haters and racists are no longer instigators of abuse, they're simply reacting.

This is all perfectly logical, and can be presented cooly and clearly by someone like WHAM. But it diverges from reality as much as Jack's conspiratorial mutterings. And it's much more dangerous, because it sounds so reasonable.

Ali, you raise some good points here that remind of the book Reading Lolita in Tehran, where a girl's sexuality is widely interpreted --and in some cases condemned-- across a spectrum of opinions.

I have never played a Twitch game, so I'm not entirely clear on the social dynamics first hand. Is it common for adult women to look to play games with young boys in return for money? Do people build businesses around this model?

[WHAM]

I have never played a Twitch game, so I'm not entirely clear on the social dynamics first hand. Is it common for adult women to look to play games with young boys in return for money? Do people build businesses around this model?

Twitch is a video streaming service mostly focused around games. People can play games, other people can watch and chat with the people playing.
I saw a stream where a Russian lady was doing gymnastics before a camera there, and she'd raised over a 100 000 dollars from viewer donations. Her goal was 200 000 dollars so she could buy a house. An extreme example, sure, but gives you an idea of how lucrative it can be.

And to give you an idea on what a very popular female streamer's feed can look like:
https://i.imgur.com/CMCEHHw.png

[Ali]

What I tried to point out was that the actions of the few were tainting the view of the whole group, when that is not fair or reasonable. Such correlations just tend to be what we human beings do. See for example: someone shoots up a school = all gun owners come under scrutiny.

You've done it again. My bad opinions are a consequence of being acted upon by outside forces. These women's bad behaviour has tainted my view of the group. No. I am responsible for the views I hold. If I blame one person for what another did, that's my error.

BTW, which part of the picture of a woman with bare arms the most abusive? Is it the elbows?

EDIT: In response to WHAM's comment below. I clearly said "my" and not "your". I didn't say your view of women was tainted - although I think that it is, evidenced by your reasoning around women and your generalisations about "females". You are, consciously or unconsciously, diminishing and obscuring sexism and prejudice, and that's what was criticising. It may be "what we human beings do", but we also do infanticide and cannibalism, so I'm not interested in arguments from nature.

[WHAM]

You've done it again. My bad opinions are a consequence of being acted upon by outside forces. These women's bad behaviour has tainted my view of the group. No. I am responsible for the views I hold. If I blame one person for what another did, that's my error.

BTW, which part of the picture of a woman with bare arms the most abusive? Is it the elbows?

What are you on about? Where did I say my view of the group was tainted? That I personally viewed female gamers negatively because of the streamers? Or that the image was abusive?
Could you kindly get your head out of your backside and discuss the topic at hand rather than trying to desperately wrangle any and all discussion into fuel for your personal vendetta, please? It is getting rather tiresome.

[Blondbraid]

Let me make a counter hypothetical of the same caliber:
Do you think that, today, more women would play more historical videogames if they represented the historically accurate roles women held during the war? More games about working in factories, worrying about bombs and sabotage? Of manning anti-air listening posts and searchlights? Of manning rear echelon kitchens, supply depots and transport companies?

These are all incredibly important and meaningful tasks, but they do not make for very good interactive entertainment products. 

I have no doubt you could make a fun and popular game out of factory work, medical personell and anti-air posts, since we've had games like Stardew Valley and The Sims become poular franchises despite being about farming and families/home decoration respectively.

However, you yourself admitted that there were women fighting in the Soviet forces, eastern partisans and resistance groups, and you could just as well make an action game or FPS about them.

But I think there needs to be room for both realistic depictions of history and fun swashbuckling versions of history, but as it is now far too many people argue women should be excluded based on "historical accuracy" but I don't see anyone seriously demanding that all games about men in WW2 needs to deal with them managing lice and dysentery or that we should make the next Battlefield about a guy toiling away in a POW camp or learning to live without legs after getting paralyzed from a stray shell to show men what real history was like.

Because history is what it is, and the human nature dictates that males want to keep females safe, the role of women tends to be far less exciting in real-world wartime history. There is a reason the entertainment industry focuses on the easily marketable, visually interesting and mentally engaging challenges that are easy to replicate through gameplay mechanics. This reality will continue to limit the visibility of women in videogames about war, due to the nature of the medium.

And now you've lost me, because firstly, the idea that men naturally want to protect women is 100% a cultural expectation and not some biological inevitability. Not only is the single highest cause of death in women (when you rule out disease and old age) being murdered by abusive men they were in a relationship with, but looking at statistics from shipwrecks, men have a much higher survival rate than women and the only reason most women survived the Titanic was because the captain and his officers held the male passengers back at gunpoint. It's also ignoring all the women who have been more than willing to risk their lives for their country or their family members, but have been actively prohibited from doing so by both law and a lifetime of being actively prevented from doing physical exercise or learning how to use arms.

You have no idea how many times I've seen in my own social circles how women complain of their husbands or boyfriends playing games and how they see it as "childish" or "a waste of time".
Sure, there are plenty of female gamers, but at least in the current and past generations they seem to be a minority still. Future generations may well close up the gap, though.

The biggest reason there aren't more women is that for the last decades both the community and developers have been trying to drive them away, both through in-game content like I described in my previous comment regarding the Metro 2033 sequel, but also because so many gaming communities contain trolls and creeps that take active pride in harassing women, and the majority of the other members just spend all their time and effort on insisting that they're not one of them and accuse people speaking up against is of being SJWs who want to look for a conflict instead of actively denouncing the harassers and call them out on it.

The appearance of so-called "twitch-thots" along with other camgirl services has given rise to phenomenon such as FinDom and other forms of abuse that is harmful to the viewers, which happen to be primarily young lonely men, because those happen to play a lot of videogames. (Because the majority of women tend to view gaming as a negative thing rather than as a fun hobby, oddly enough.)

I think this is very revealing. There's a really interesting article written by psychologists in the 80s called The Metaphorical Logic of Rape, which I should warn has disturbing content. But I implore anyone with an interest to read it, because it's fascinating and relevant. Saying that women are "abusing" men by being sexy on a gaming website isn't literal. Just like when we say a woman is "a knock-out" we don't literally mean she knocked us out. But an unwitting consequence of these linguistic choices is that they allow us to significantly re-configure sequences of events in reality.

- I'm not sexually attracted to this woman - this woman is DOING SOMETHING to me with her sexuality.
- I'm not choosing to watch this Twitch stream - the women running this twitch stream is ABUSING me with her sexuality.

The woman becomes the instigator, and men's actions - arousal, harassment or, more mildly, a refusal to believe in girl gamers - become much more reasonable reactions. Instead of holding Person A responsible for their actions, it seems much more reasonable to hold Person A's victim responsible. After all, the victim started it. The bad girl gamers ruined the reputation of girl gamers. The bad immigrants ruined the reputation of immigrants. The women haters and racists are no longer instigators of abuse, they're simply reacting.

You've really hit the nail on the head, the hate against Twitch camgirls but not the people paying for them and blaming men's lust on women is straight up Frollo-logic.

Also, the whole implication that men can't control themselves isn't just dangerous for women, but it's also greatly harmful to men who fall victim to sexual abuse, because it reinforces the notion that men can't be sexually abused because they always want it and that anyone sexually abusing a man is basically doing him a favor. A woman on Twitch offering a service and people choosing to pay for that service doesn't mean that she's stealing or abusing the people paying her anymore than hamburger chains are abusing hungry people.

[WHAM]

But I think there needs to be room for both realistic depictions of history and fun swashbuckling versions of history

Said it before, and I'll say it again. I agree. There is room for both and I have no issue with both existing.

And now you've lost me, because firstly, the idea that men naturally want to protect women is 100% a cultural expectation and not some biological inevitability.

I'm pretty sure some evolutionary scientists will disagree with you here, considering how the human society has evolved. Sure, modern society has changed a lot from our hunter-gatherer days, but to claim that human evolution has entirely surpassed such basic instincs as "protecting the breeding-aged females to ensure the survival of the species" that is inherent in most mammals is a bit much.

The biggest reason there aren't more women is that for the last decades both the community and developers have been trying to drive them away, both through in-game content like I described in my previous comment regarding the Metro 2033 sequel, but also because so many gaming communities contain trolls and creeps that take active pride in harassing women, and the majority of the other members just spend all their time and effort on insisting that they're not one of them and accuse people speaking up against is of being SJWs who want to look for a conflict instead of actively denouncing the harassers and call them out on it.

There is truth in what you are saying, but keep in mind that in sheer quantity the vast majority of online abuse is still directed at men. And still men choose to participate in these communities, despite being repeatedly called "gay" or "faggot" or "motherfucker" or "nazi" or "fascist" or whatever other colourful language you'd like to insert here, along with the same death threats, swatting attacks and more that are unfortunate side effects of online anonymity that allows people like Ali to throw around some pretty foul things without a worry in the world.

Also, the whole implication that men can't control themselves isn't just dangerous for women, but it's also greatly harmful to men who fall victim to sexual abuse, because it reinforces the notion that men can't be sexually abused because they always want it and that anyone sexually abusing a man is basically doing him a favor. A woman on Twitch offering a service and people choosing to pay for that service doesn't mean that she's stealing or abusing the people paying her anymore than hamburger chains are abusing hungry people.

Like I said, I agree for the most part, and believe that women should be free to sell their bodies if they want (hey, the 'oldest profession' and all that) just as men should be free to avail them of such services if they want. But when the primary target demographic are children, such as on Twitch, it gets shady as heck.

[Ali]

online anonymity that allows people like Ali to throw around some pretty foul things without a worry in the world.

I'm not anonymous. Ali is short for Alasdair Beckett-King. It's pretty rich being accused of abuse by someone who has repeatedly excused and diminished abuse directed towards women. The idea that calling people homophobic slurs is the same as calling people with far-right politics "fascists" is laughable. I don't know if I've mentioned this before, but you did once lament that "the event we have labelled "the Holocaust" is seen in a purely negative light". And that is, unequivocally, foul.

EDIT: In response to your question below, my comment about the Metaphorical Logic of Rape explains why I think your attitude excuses abusers and blames victims.

[WHAM]

someone who has repeatedly excused and diminished abuse directed towards women.

I hate to keep asking and not getting answers, but: When have I done that?

[Blondbraid]

But I think there needs to be room for both realistic depictions of history and fun swashbuckling versions of history

Said it before, and I'll say it again. I agree. There is room for both and I have no issue with both existing.

Then why did you feel the need to make such a huge deal out of how wrong you thought Battlefield 5 was?

I'm pretty sure some evolutionary scientists will disagree with you here, considering how the human society has evolved. Sure, modern society has changed a lot from our hunter-gatherer days, but to claim that human evolution has entirely surpassed such basic instincs as "protecting the breeding-aged females to ensure the survival of the species" that is inherent in most mammals is a bit much.

Did you miss the woman murder statistics I mentioned and the link with the scientific study showing that the overwhelming majority of men did not in fact put random women over themselves?
The whole evolutionary science field is dodgy pseudoscience at best and there are huge disagreements among scholars (I recommend reading this article), plus tons of things people have claimed are biological have already been debunked, just as the phrenology and eugenics that were popular in the 1900's. I really don't want to go the same route Ali did and accuse you of being a fascist, but if you are kind of inviting such comparisons by casually trying to use biological justifications for societal laws and literally comparing humans to animals.

There is truth in what you are saying, but keep in mind that in sheer quantity the vast majority of online abuse is still directed at men. And still men choose to participate in these communities, despite being repeatedly called "gay" or "faggot" or "motherfucker" or "nazi" or "fascist" or whatever other colourful language you'd like to insert here, along with the same death threats, swatting attacks and more that are unfortunate side effects of online anonymity that allows people like Ali to throw around some pretty foul things without a worry in the world.

Men get more abuse due to the fact that there are more men in gaming circles, but the women who are in those spaces get far more abuse than their male peers and get horrific threats of sexual violence and sexist slurs on top of the same death threats and nazi-accusations men get, Snarky already pointed that out and he's actually working as a moderator.

Like I said, I agree for the most part, and believe that women should be free to sell their bodies if they want (hey, the 'oldest profession' and all that) just as men should be free to avail them of such services if they want. But when the primary target demographic are children, such as on Twitch, it gets shady as heck.

Then why are you blaming the streamers and not Twitch as a platform for allowing children to pay for their services or the children's parents for not teaching them better? Also, just casually comparing any woman relying on her looks in her job but not actually selling sex is hugely demeaning to them and basically encouraging harassment and lewd propositions to women just because they dress skimpy.

[Snarky]

Men get more abuse due to the fact that there are more men in gaming circles, but the women who are in those spaces get far more abuse than their male peers and get horrific threats of sexual violence and sexist slurs on top of the same death threats and nazi-accusations men get, Snarky already pointed that out and he's actually working as a moderator.

From studies I've seen reported you are definitely right, but just to be clear, I'm not claiming any professional expertise on the subject. While there are definitely some people (men and women) who've been treated badly in the AGS community, the sample set of cases I've dealt with is pretty small. If I were to draw conclusions from my experience as a moderator, the group most targeted for abuse is moderators.

[Kastchey]

Men get more abuse due to the fact that there are more men in gaming circles, but the women who are in those spaces get far more abuse than their male peers and get horrific threats of sexual violence and sexist slurs on top of the same death threats and nazi-accusations men get, Snarky already pointed that out and he's actually working as a moderator.

Very true, at least as far as online gaming goes. It is not uncommon for female gamers to refrain from using voice chat and to quietly pretend they are just another male behind the keyboard to avoid abuse. Females who do decide to reveal their gender expose themselves to a wide variety of harassment ranging from unwanted advances through being singled out, criticized and mocked for every mistake much more than any male player would be, to openly hateful "I'll drive you out of here" campaigns from insecure alpha wannabes who just can't stand being outperformed by a female in a computer game. I've seen guilds/clans boasting about themselves not allowing females into their ranks, which in their understanding was a mark of a professional group.

Sure that online gaming communities aren't exactly courteous, but the juvenile name calling casually flying back and forth during online gaming sessions does not compare to the targeted, constant abuse female gamers are commonly up against. And sure, targeted abuse towards male players also happens but for female players, more often than not it comes in a bundle.