Author Topic: International Women's Day  (Read 3696 times)

WHAM

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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #120 on: 13 Mar 2019, 19:58 »
Then why did you feel the need to make such a huge deal out of how wrong you thought Battlefield 5 was?

I feel like a broken record here, but once more: Because it was initially marketed as something it was not and its lead developer was making claims about historical accuracy that had nothing to do with actual history, while abusing the fans of the series by calling them uneducated idiots for not going along with his fantasies, which led me to personally decide against buying the game.

Did you miss the woman murder statistics I mentioned and the link with the scientific study showing that the overwhelming majority of men did not in fact put random women over themselves?

Are you really comparing violent crime statistics, the edge cases of our society, to the general evolutionary nature of our species? Apples to oranges, my friend.
That's the equivalent of saying that "human beings are not biologically designed to survive because some of them kill themselves on purpose!"

Men get more abuse due to the fact that there are more men in gaming circles, but the women who are in those spaces get far more abuse than their male peers and get horrific threats of sexual violence and sexist slurs on top of the same death threats and nazi-accusations men get, Snarky already pointed that out and he's actually working as a moderator.

One group receiving abuse does not diminish the abuse suffered by another group. And yet there seems to only ever be discussion of why women feel excluded from the online space, while men continue to tolerate the abuse they get and remain. That seems sexist and unfortunate to me, in how the issues faced by men are belittled. However, that is not the point of this thread, and I think we can all agree on the general point that "online abuse, against anyone, is bad". (Well, some people can't, but they're a different breed of animal, and usually dealing out the harassment themselves.)

Then why are you blaming the streamers and not Twitch as a platform for allowing children to pay for their services or the children's parents for not teaching them better? Also, just casually comparing any woman relying on her looks in her job but not actually selling sex is hugely demeaning to them and basically encouraging harassment and lewd propositions to women just because they dress skimpy.

There is definitely blame to be placed on Twitch, too, but they are not technically violating any laws and they're making a ton of money off of the practice, so it is unlikely anything will change through their action.
That does not remove the fact that there are predatory individuals who are selling their sexuality and appearance, even if it is not selling direct physical sex, to audiences that are vulnerable to being scammed or led along.
I personally also believe that people who are not familiar with gaming communities may well end up being introduced to them through streamers and compliations of streams on Youtube, and the female gamers represented in those tend to be mostly the titty-streamer variety, which I feel may well feed into the negative stereotypes and make people more inclined to think less of female gamers. (And before anyone shouts at me about it again: just because I am pointing out that I think this is happening does not mean I think it is a good thing. Is that now adequately clear?)

If I were to draw conclusions from my experience as a moderator, the group most targeted for abuse is moderators.

That is probably the one group above all other online groups, regardless of sex, orientation or political view, that gets the most abuse. I don't think I could do it. :D
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Mandle

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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #121 on: 13 Mar 2019, 22:19 »
Look, it obviously comes down to engine performance issues:

Female characters have two dangly bits to animate whereas male characters have only one.

This is known, in profession circles, as The PvP Trade-Off.

In full:

Spoiler: ShowHide
The Puppies vs. Package Trade-Off.

Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #122 on: 13 Mar 2019, 22:27 »
WHAM, it's not edge cases in society, I mentioned the single biggest cause of murder for women and I specifically also linked to an article about a study of a huge number of shipwrecks, and the men on those ships were not selected criminals, they were a huge number of random people whom happened to be on boats that were sinking and the pattern was very clear, nearly all of them put their own survival over that of random women. Here's the link again: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2130003/Study-sea-disasters-men-better-survival-rate-ships-down.html

Like I said, the more you try to use random made up "biological facts" to justify societal laws, the more you sound like what Ali accused you of being.

One group receiving abuse does not diminish the abuse suffered by another group. And yet there seems to only ever be discussion of why women feel excluded from the online space, while men continue to tolerate the abuse they get and remain. That seems sexist and unfortunate to me, in how the issues faced by men are belittled. However, that is not the point of this thread, and I think we can all agree on the general point that "online abuse, against anyone, is bad". (Well, some people can't, but they're a different breed of animal, and usually dealing out the harassment themselves.)
If you are so concerned about diminishing abuse of men, I want to point out that you yourself are diminishing real sexual abuse of men by saying that something that they choose to do, paying camgirls, is abuse on par with predators coercing children into sexual acts. No one is forcing them to spend money on the girls and to suggest otherwise and imply that all men always want sex and they just can't control their impulses is the exact same rhetoric that's used to dismiss male survivors of rape and sexual assault.

Look, it obviously comes down to engine performance issues:

Female characters have two dangly bits to animate whereas male characters have only one.

This is known, in profession circles, as The PvP Trade-Off.

In full:

Spoiler: ShowHide
The Puppies vs. Package Trade-Off.

Just like in Assassin's Creed Unity, where after getting criticism for removing playable female characters from the game, Ubisoft explained that it was because women were too hard for them to animate.
Spoiler: ShowHide

It turns out they were right...  :-\

Mandle

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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #123 on: 14 Mar 2019, 02:15 »
@Blondbraid AAAAARRGGGHHH!!! KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!

WHAM

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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #124 on: 14 Mar 2019, 07:15 »
Like I said, the more you try to use random made up "biological facts" to justify societal laws, the more you sound like what Ali accused you of being.
This will have to be an area on which we disagree with, then. I talk about evolutionary traits affecting the decisions we make as a broader society, such as choosing not to draft women into the military, while you try to equate that to the actions of individuals in a moment of duress or other extremely heated moment. I do not think those two are comparable, and thus I don't think your relating the two has any connection to the point I was making. Laws about matters such as the military draft are drawn up with more sensibility than decisions about immediate survival in a life or death situation.

No one is forcing them to spend money on the girls and to suggest otherwise and imply that all men always want sex and they just can't control their impulses is the exact same rhetoric that's used to dismiss male survivors of rape and sexual assault.
Sure, I will consent that nobody is forcing people to do anything here. However, among these young male viewers are numerous boys suffering of self esteem issues, bullying offline and online, and a lack of meaningful social interaction. All prime causes of why we have such high suicide rates among men. Such individuals are exceptionally vulnerable to being monetized and taken advantage of, as for them something as simple as getting their name called out by a pretty girl on screen is easily worth tens of dollars of investment. If you do not see anything wrong with that, then once again I must say that is an area where we will simply have to disagree on.

Just like in Assassin's Creed Unity, where after getting criticism for removing playable female characters from the game, Ubisoft explained that it was because women were too hard for them to animate.
Ah, Ubisoft. Their claim that women would be difficult to animate in their current game was valid in the way that doing so would have required them to use the same skeleton structure for the female and male models, meaning those characters would have needed to be the same height and general build for the animations to make sense. So their excuse basically boiled down to "We don't want to make a female character who is as tall as a male character". Optionally they could have made a whole new set of animations and skeletons, but I can see why that might have been prohibitively work-intensive at the point of development they were at when the statement was made.
« Last Edit: 14 Mar 2019, 07:23 by WHAM »
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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #125 on: 14 Mar 2019, 09:31 »
Like I said, the more you try to use random made up "biological facts" to justify societal laws, the more you sound like what Ali accused you of being.
This will have to be an area on which we disagree with, then. I talk about evolutionary traits affecting the decisions we make as a broader society, such as choosing not to draft women into the military, while you try to equate that to the actions of individuals in a moment of duress or other extremely heated moment. I do not think those two are comparable, and thus I don't think your relating the two has any connection to the point I was making. Laws about matters such as the military draft are drawn up with more sensibility than decisions about immediate survival in a life or death situation.
If laws are the result of sensible discussion and thinking, they are not the result of universal evolutionary impulses left over from the animal stage.
Not only are there culture where a significant amount of warriors were women, such as the Scythians, the Dahomey kingdom and modern day Israel to name a few, the biggest reason women were forbidden from being soldiers is the same reason they were forbidden from doing a huge bunch of other male-coded jobs that didn't pose a risk to the practitioner, and it was because the people in power were afraid that it would upset the social order that kept them in power, and for exactly the same reason large groups of men, such as the jews and slaves in ancient Rome and colonial America were also forbidden from bearing arms, and it wasn't because the rulers wanted to protect them. And just to drive the point home that cultural laws aren't the result of some sensible evolutionary strategy, for centuries women in Europe were prohibited from studying science and medicine at nearly all places of learning, despite it posing zero danger for them and it's objectively stupid to randomly bar 50% of the population from potentially making discoveries that could save hundreds lives, and there's no explanation other than cultural prejudices, so I see no point in discussing it further.
Quote
Sure, I will consent that nobody is forcing people to do anything here. However, among these young male viewers are numerous boys suffering of self esteem issues, bullying offline and online, and a lack of meaningful social interaction. All prime causes of why we have such high suicide rates among men.
Then the real issue is that those boys are bullied by their peers and forced to live up to unrealistic expectations from society about "being a real man" that they end up in such a vulnerable state to begin with, and shaming camgirls will not solve any of the problems of bullying and self esteem. I don't endorse selling anything to impressionable teens, but I fail to see how it's worse and more exploitative than say, clothing brands making kids buy them out of fear of being ostracized for not having the right brand.
Quote
Ah, Ubisoft. Their claim that women would be difficult to animate in their current game was valid in the way that doing so would have required them to use the same skeleton structure for the female and male models, meaning those characters would have needed to be the same height and general build for the animations to make sense. So their excuse basically boiled down to "We don't want to make a female character who is as tall as a male character". Optionally they could have made a whole new set of animations and skeletons, but I can see why that might have been prohibitively work-intensive at the point of development they were at when the statement was made.
Yeah, and the irony is that they did recycle most of the animations for Aveline in Assassin's Creed: Liberation from the male character in their previous game, both of which came out before Unity, so it's pretty much entirely down to terrible priorities and project management on Ubisoft's part. Funny how women wasn't a priority but modelling over 30 different customizable costumes the hero could wear was.
« Last Edit: 14 Mar 2019, 09:51 by Blondbraid »

Cassiebsg

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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #126 on: 14 Mar 2019, 14:15 »

[/quote]
So their excuse basically boiled down to "We don't want to make a female character who is as tall as a male character".
[/quote]

Because it's unthinkable that women can be as high or taller than men...  (wrong)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #127 on: 14 Mar 2019, 14:44 »
Because it's unthinkable that women can be as high or taller than men...  (wrong)
Indeed, it's completely ridiculous and has nothing to do with reality.
I'm a Swede and every single time I travel abroad I feel like Gandalf visiting the Shire, and I'm not even that tall compared to several other women I know.

WHAM

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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #128 on: 14 Mar 2019, 15:21 »
Ubisoft really dropped the ball with that one, though "dropping the ball" describes most of what they do. Didn't they recently have a whole issue with first making a character that could be straight or gay or whatever in the main game, then drop a DLC that forced that character into a straight relationship after all.

It's like they try to do a bunch of things, but aren't really aware of what it is they are actually trying to do.

From the topic of sad failures to something more positive: Have people here played A Hat in Time? One of the most fun games I played last year, despite its minor technical issues, and a fun example of a game with a female protagonist I cannot imagine anyone would have a problem with playing.

Feel free to suggest other fine examples of games that have key female characters and were done well. Off the top of my head I can think of a few I've enjoyed.

- Dishonored 2 - Death of the Outsider
- All of the Shantae games
- Portal 1 & 2
- Night in the Woods

And some of the well known AGS ones:

- Heroine's Quest
- The Blackwell games
- Nelly Cootalot
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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #129 on: 14 Mar 2019, 17:36 »
The whole Ubisoft debacle with the DLC that turned a previously straight character gay very much feels like the result of the writers picturing a straight character as the default and forgetting that the base game provided several branching options for their sexuality and personality, and basically wanting to have their cake and eat it by saying that they want the player to choose how to develop their character but not actually spending time and effort to write different endings to accommodate those choices.

It's rather sad and ironic considering that Ubisoft has done great female characters before, such as Farah and Elika from the Prince of Persia games, Jade from Beyond Good and Evil and even in the Assassin's Creed franchise they had a great female protagonist with Aveline, and later Evie Frye as co-protagonist in Assassin's Creed: Syndicate.

As for other great female protagonists, I've already mentioned April Ryan and Kate Walker, both whom are great protagonists in great games that still hold up today, and some other good adventure game heroines are:

Fran Bow, from her titular game "Fran Bow", which mixes very dark horror with Fran's childlike and optimistic fantasy, Vella from Broken Age, who is a teenager chosen as sacrifice to a fish monster but devices a great escape plan on her own, and Anna from Valiant Hearts, whom is a WW1 nurse and chauffeur and at several points in the game not only gets to participate in some great car chases but also gets to use her medical skills in the gameplay to save several people.

When it comes to AGS games, I always liked Emily Enough and Jacqueline White from their eponymous games.

Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #130 on: 14 Mar 2019, 18:14 »
I played a game called "We Happy Few" some time ago. It has a very decent dystopian setting and a story, but tideous and repetitive gameplay, so I was left with very mixed feelings about it.

The story is divided in 3 parts where you play 3 different characters whose paths cross at some points. In the second part your character is a female who hides a baby in her appartment (having children is forbidden in their town for some reason). Idk how close to realism the depiction of a character was, but it seemed a pretty original experience because on one hand you are much weaker than anyone who poses any threat and therefore have to rely more on evasion and various tricks, and on other hand the baby factor forces you to constantly worry about the time and plan ahead more carefully, because you have to regularly return back to check on her.
« Last Edit: 14 Mar 2019, 18:18 by Crimson Wizard »

Dualnames

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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #131 on: 14 Mar 2019, 20:02 »
I think the majority of Ben304's games have female protagonists, like I can't remember a male protagonist in a ben game. Even Shardlight. The blackwell series, our own Primordia, has Clarity which is a strong female figure, and our 'villain' is a 'female voiced' robot (I'm not sure that's a good thing), Resonance, Technobabylon (transgender), Unawoved
No more military army stuff. I'm alive and back.

Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #132 on: 14 Mar 2019, 20:33 »
I loved Amy in Shardlight! Also Clarity was awesome and one of my favorites from Primordia.
« Last Edit: 14 Mar 2019, 20:45 by SilverSpook »

Mandle

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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #133 on: 14 Mar 2019, 22:59 »
Kathy Rain.

Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #134 on: 15 Mar 2019, 09:26 »
Kathy Rain.

Absolutely!  I just finished this game last night.  So good.

Mandle

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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #135 on: 15 Mar 2019, 14:51 »
Kathy Rain.

Absolutely!  I just finished this game last night.  So good.

To be honest, I signed onto the game play-testers as an excuse to play it ASAP, but I did actually find some issues that were valuable to the devs to make the game better.

I still kinda wish that my idea to have that last, OCD-inducing, Autumn leaf clinging to the edge of the tree fall off and float down onto the grave, just before the end credits roll, had been included but it's still a pretty decent game despite that oversight...  (laugh)

Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #136 on: 16 Mar 2019, 16:44 »
I think the majority of Ben304's games have female protagonists, like I can't remember a male protagonist in a ben game. Even Shardlight. The blackwell series, our own Primordia, has Clarity which is a strong female figure, and our 'villain' is a 'female voiced' robot (I'm not sure that's a good thing), Resonance, Technobabylon (transgender), Unawoved
I quite liked Technobabylon, and I thought both Latha and Max were great characters in both the "prototype" first freeware chapters of the game and the full length Wadjet Eye version.

Ben X

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Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #137 on: 18 Mar 2019, 19:02 »
First of nine "Women Behind The Games" videos Double Fine are putting up this week:

Ben There, Dan That! & Time Gentlemen, Please! bundle for £3: Steam or GOG

Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #138 on: 19 Mar 2019, 12:43 »
First of nine "Women Behind The Games" videos Double Fine are putting up this week:
What a great video, I look forward to the next part!
Anyway, I also wanted to add another great adventure game heroine I forgot to mention, Kara from the Covert front games.
There are four short freeware adventure games set in WW1 with some great pussels and atmosphere, and here is a link for anyone wanting to play the games:
http://www.mateuszskutnik.com/covert-front/

Re: International Women's Day
« Reply #139 on: 20 Mar 2019, 10:24 »
You are Swedish, Blondbraid ?