What do you think of walking simulators/narrative-focused adventures?

Started by Laura Hunt, Fri 16/08/2019 06:57:02

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Laura Hunt

Gone Home, Dear Esther, Firewatch, What Remains of Edith Finch, Journey, Kentucky Route Zero... The "walking simulator" or "interactive narrative" adventure sub-genre is as loved as it is maligned, with seemingly very few opinions in-between the two extremes of "games as art" and "pretentious wankery".

AGS forum members tend to have a clear predilection for a very specific type of adventure, and The Puzzles (tm) are often the main criterion on which games are judged here on these forums. But what about other types of adventures? What about task-driven, rather than puzzle-driven, point-and-clicks? What about interactive narratives, whether they be linear or branching? What about exploration sims, story driven adventures, or any of the other millions of things you can create with a point-and-click interface? What about Night in the Woods? What about Layers of Fear? Hell, what about Life is Strange?

I'd love to know what people here think of non-puzzle-based adventures, and if possible, avoiding the fruitless "ugh but are those even GAMES" debate, which always tends to get ugly and not add much to the conversation. Do you enjoy them just as much as puzzle-based games? Less? More? Maybe you don't care too much for them? Which are your favourites? When was the last time a video game made you cry, or gasp in astonishment, or blew your mind with a complex, well-layered story? (Not that any of this is incompatible with a puzzle-based approach, of course! For example, The Talos Principle is literally nothing else but puzzles, but the story is also meant to make you think about what being human means, whether an AI can actually think or feel, what is consciousness, etc etc).

So, what does everybody think?  :)

Durq

Most of them bore me to tears. But I did enjoy Gone Home.

Dualnames

You/anyone makes anything close to What Remains of Edith Finch, I will gladly pay for it and leave a positive review!
Worked on Strangeland, Primordia, Hob's Barrow, The Cat Lady, Mage's Initiation, Until I Have You, Downfall, Hunie Pop, and every game in the Wadjet Eye Games catalogue (porting)

Laura Hunt

Quote from: Dualnames on Fri 16/08/2019 09:23:55
You/anyone makes anything close to What Remains of Edith Finch, I will gladly pay for it and leave a positive review!

Haha I WISH! (laugh) Although like I said on another thread, if I had the talent and the means, I would go more for a Kentucky Route Zero kind of vibe. Such an amazing game, really.

VampireWombat

Oh, so that's what type of game Dear Esther is. Maybe I should actually get around to playing it sometime. I've listened to the soundtrack countless times.
I have played and enjoyed Life is Strange. Though I haven't actually finished it...
Personally, I have no problems with games that rely more on story than puzzles. In fact, I think some games that do have puzzles might actually be better without them. In fact, I would kind of like to make a game that is story/location driven one day.

Mandle

Firewatch could have just as easily been a novel, but the dreary repeating of how beautiful the scenery looked every day would have gotten old fast.

As a game it works perfectly, especially with
Spoiler
killing the expectations of players that there is some deep and fantastic mystery to uncover when it just turns out to be such a small and sad one.
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And that's not even getting into the
Spoiler
alienation theme of the two main characters and the rush of expectation at the end that they will meet up and maybe everything will get better for them and that maybe we will finally see another human face except for a dead child and a cut-out of a forest ranger, but NOPE... just loneliness all the way to the end! A true work of storytelling art!
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Cassiebsg

I haven't played any of those, but I know that I enjoy adventure games for the story AND puzzles... While I can play an "adventure game" that only has puzzles and feel a bit empty for the lack of story, I will still get the enjoyment of solving the puzzles. Playing an interactive story with no puzzles or nothing else to do but to occasionally click for the game to go forward? I would quit after only a few minutes (if not seconds... as in as soon as I realize there's nothing for me to solve). Would rather read a book or watch a tv show/movie in that case.

But that's just me, I'm more interested in the puzzles rather than the story.  :)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Laura Hunt

Quote from: VampireWombat on Fri 16/08/2019 15:46:46
Oh, so that's what type of game Dear Esther is. Maybe I should actually get around to playing it sometime. I've listened to the soundtrack countless times.

The soundtrack is lovely! The game itself is not one of my favourites in this genre though, but your mileage may vary and all that. I definitely think it's worth checking out in any case :)

Quote from: VampireWombat on Fri 16/08/2019 15:46:46I have played and enjoyed Life is Strange. Though I haven't actually finished it...

Life is Strange was such a punch in the gut for me that I flat out refused to play the prequel Before the Storm because I didn't want to go through another emotional rollercoaster like the first one. That's the magic thing about these games, they can lift you up or utterly fuck you up if they catch you in the right (wrong?) mood and this is something you just don't get with so many other genres.

Quote from: VampireWombat on Fri 16/08/2019 15:46:46Personally, I have no problems with games that rely more on story than puzzles. In fact, I think some games that do have puzzles might actually be better without them.

Yup, mine, for example :-D Seriously though, I think my first AGS game is a good example of that because what I wanted to do was tell a story and create a certain mood, but I forced myself into shoehorning a puzzle there because otherwise, it would not be a... (gasp) GAME. And I still regret it, to be honest. Some people actually liked the puzzle itself, but I should have followed my gut and just left it out. These things help you learn what you really want, though. That's great.

Quote from: VampireWombat on Fri 16/08/2019 15:46:46In fact, I would kind of like to make a game that is story/location driven one day.

I'd like to see that! Hope you get around to it :)

Quote from: Mandle on Fri 16/08/2019 16:01:28
Firewatch could have just as easily been a novel, but the dreary repeating of how beautiful the scenery looked every day would have gotten old fast.

Firewatch is one of those games that I always wanted to play but had to end up admitting to myself that I was never going to have the time for it, so I watched a couple of playthroughs and... wow. When somebody says that making these games is "easy" I'm like... Firewatch begs to differ. Sorry.

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Fri 16/08/2019 17:04:45
I haven't played any of those, but I know that I enjoy adventure games for the story AND puzzles... While I can play an "adventure game" that only has puzzles and feel a bit empty for the lack of story, I will still get the enjoyment of solving the puzzles. Playing an interactive story with no puzzles or nothing else to do but to occasionally click for the game to go forward? I would quit after only a few minutes (if not seconds... as in as soon as I realize there's nothing for me to solve). Would rather read a book or watch a tv show/movie in that case.

But that's just me, I'm more interested in the puzzles rather than the story.  :)

Fair enough! :) Lately I find that I don't have the same capacity to focus on stuff like reading books that I used to, so maybe that's also why I like these type of games... in a way, they are replacing books and movies for me!

(Still... Journey, though. So pretty! So soothing! So utterly gorgeous!)

Cassiebsg

Oh, let me just add that it annoys me more, people calling adventure games to games that are not.
Lara Croft is not an adventure game it's an action-adventure... And if it's an interactive novel, don't call it an adventure game, if there are only puzzles and no story don't call it an adventure game.

Just call it what it is and we're all be happier to be able to find exactly the game we're looking for. Instead of having to read through reviews or watch YT videos to figure out what type of game it really is.  ;)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

VampireWombat

Quote from: Laura Hunt on Fri 16/08/2019 17:24:52The soundtrack is lovely! The game itself is not one of my favourites in this genre though, but your mileage may vary and all that. I definitely think it's worth checking out in any case :)

Life is Strange was such a punch in the gut for me that I flat out refused to play the prequel Before the Storm because I didn't want to go through another emotional rollercoaster like the first one. That's the magic thing about these games, they can lift you up or utterly fuck you up if they catch you in the right (wrong?) mood and this is something you just don't get with so many other genres.

Yup, mine, for example :-D Seriously though, I think my first AGS game is a good example of that because what I wanted to do was tell a story and create a certain mood, but I forced myself into shoehorning a puzzle there because otherwise, it would not be a... (gasp) GAME. And I still regret it, to be honest. Some people actually liked the puzzle itself, but I should have followed my gut and just left it out. These things help you learn what you really want, though. That's great.

I'd like to see that! Hope you get around to it :)
Ah. Sounds like something I'd probably not go out of my way to play, but since I already got it from Humble Bundle it's something to try anyway.

I think I stopped playing Life Is Strange while in the bathroom, so maybe played only an hour or so. I think it was last summer and the heat made me stop wanting to play any games that required any form of thinking.
Unfortunately, I haven't played many games which made me feel much either way.

I don't see any reason to have to throw in puzzles to make something count as a game. I mean, visual novels tend to be considered games. Though I guess figuring out how to get certain endings can be considered a puzzle, or at least puzzling. Though, admittedly I've only played through one visual novel myself. But that's mostly because the only ones I own are made by Renpy users are not that engaging...

Maybe one day, once I actually start making games beyond the MAGS ones...

dactylopus

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Fri 16/08/2019 17:37:26
Oh, let me just add that it annoys me more, people calling adventure games to games that are not.
Lara Croft is not an adventure game it's an action-adventure... And if it's an interactive novel, don't call it an adventure game, if there are only puzzles and no story don't call it an adventure game.

Just call it what it is and we're all be happier to be able to find exactly the game we're looking for. Instead of having to read through reviews or watch YT videos to figure out what type of game it really is.  ;)
This is an interesting point.

I agree with Cassie in that I think that it's helpful when game creators label their games by genre here, at least when the genre is something other than an adventure game.

So many kinds of games can be made with AGS.  There are great Platformers, Tile-based Strategy games, Adventure RPGs, and so much more that this engine can do in capable hands.  Visual Novels (to generalize the games discussed in this thread) are just another type of game that can be made with AGS.

As far as my opinions on Visual Novels in general, I have no issue with them.  I haven't played many, but I have played several great games that incorporate elements of Visual Novel gameplay.  I like gameplay that feels appropriate to the narrative.  If the story doesn't need any more interaction than moving from place to place, then there is no reason to add any additional gameplay to complete it.  However, if the story has strong elements of deduction or fighting for example, then you may want to include puzzles or combat.  Action sequences can also be done through cutscenes or other means, so not all fighting in a story necessarily calls for a combat engine to be constructed, and different sections of a story can be told through different types of gameplay.  It all comes down to the story that is being told and if I feel that the gameplay works with it (or against it).

Laura Hunt



Extremely timely (came out only a month ago) and SUPER interesting video that not only tries to answer the question "What makes an adventure game an adventure game?" but also delves into the idea of "genre" itself, establishing a connecting thread between the original (text-based) Adventure to Monkey Island all the way to Return of the Obra Dinn. This is actually part of a short (for now) series on adventure games which I definitely recommend if you enjoy long-ish (20-25m) videos, and the one about the future of the adventure genre actually brings up a lot of the titles that have been mentioned in this thread (how could I forget about Oxenfree?).

This is a bit of a diversion because the point wasn't to argue over genres or what is and what is not an adventure, but still interesting anyway!

Privateer Puddin'

Quote from: Laura Hunt on Sat 17/08/2019 09:17:42


I pondered this question previously. I think I settled on: Marquis De Singe (though I appreciate the Fettucini Brothers shot Guybrush out of a cannon).

fernewelten

There's actually a very large crowd out there that doesn't dig into puzzles at all: Instead of taking the trouble of solving them, they watch let's-plays of others solving them. Apparently, they want to enjoy the fun whilst avoiding to straining their brain, in the same way as people watch others play soccer to enjoy the drama without getting their own armpits all sweaty.

This allows the conclusion that Adventures have _something_ that's regarded as "fun", but it isn't the puzzles, which are regarded as "work". The jokes that are cracked, perhaps? That would make Adventures akin to sitcoms (cue canned laughter, here). Stunning, varied visuals seem to have their importance, too: the Adventure as a fantasy picture book.

For Adventure writers, the takeaway is probably that puzzles are overrated. There must be _something_ substantial left if you take the puzzles away, or players will feel as if they were in the gym, doing monotonous crunches.

Crimson Wizard

Hah. At some point I've been wondering if I actually like solving puzzles in quests. On several occasions on this forums someone mentioned that it is that "Aha!" feeling, at the moment when you solved the tough puzzle, that gives immense pleasure, but honestly, how many puzzles give that feeling in an random average adventure game?
Guess it could be sense of exploration and unwinding a story is what keeps you playing, and majority of "puzzles" are really just a routine.

VampireWombat

To me, it's a combination of the internet and being older that makes solving puzzles in games less fulfilling.
In the olden days before Google was a verb, it could take days to figure out a puzzle. There were a few games that my brother, a friend of his, and I would all play the same adventure game and if one of us figured out a puzzle that had us all stumped for awhile, it felt like an accomplishment. And having limited games meant that a game lasting longer was a good thing. Now? I literally have over 1,000 games and can look up solutions within seconds. So not figuring out a puzzle has become more of a frustration/hindrance and rarely do I feel pleasure from figuring out the solution.
Often I'll just stop playing a game completely if I find the puzzles not enjoyable or frustrating, unless the story is good enough to make up for it.

milkanannan

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Sat 17/08/2019 18:11:41
Guess it could be sense of exploration and unwinding a story is what keeps you playing, and majority of "puzzles" are really just a routine.

Not to get too off topic, but just regarding your quests comment: Yeah I'd agree that it's the story that keeps it going. When it starts to feel like routine, it's usually due to an overly linear/predictable narrative. That's why I really loved those next generation quest games in the 90's that made it possible for multiple plots to unfold (or multiple solutions to the same problem). QFG Trial by Fire was an early example. Character development that actually contributed to your ability to solve problems, numerous side quests that could tie in with the main plot (even if you didn't know they were side quests at the time), and different game endings. Full on brain melt for 11 year old me (or 38 year old me - I'll still watch play throughs of these types to see how a narrative unfolds).   :)

Laura Hunt

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Sat 17/08/2019 18:11:41
Hah. At some point I've been wondering if I actually like solving puzzles in quests. On several occasions on this forums someone mentioned that it is that "Aha!" feeling, at the moment when you solved the tough puzzle, that gives immense pleasure, but honestly, how many puzzles give that feeling in an random average adventure game?
Guess it could be sense of exploration and unwinding a story is what keeps you playing, and majority of "puzzles" are really just a routine.

I can definitely relate to that, usually the satisfaction I get from solving a puzzle comes not so much from the "aha!" moment or the act itself of figuring it out, but from the fact that solving the puzzle opens up more of the game, advances the plot, allows me to keep unwinding the story, like you said. I guess this makes for two very different groups of adventure gamers!

Mandle

I still feel the "Aha!" moment if the puzzle was really clever, like the elevator/chain puzzle in The Lurking Horror.

If it's something more like the monkey wrench puzzle in Monkey Island 2 I still feel happy that I can make further progress but no "Aha!" because the puzzle was not the kind you solve by careful thought, more like a "I can't believe that worked!" feeling.

Danvzare

Walking Simulator is a good genre, but 99% of the games in that genre are complete and total trash.
I can only name two decent walking simulators. The very first walking simulator that predates the genre "LSD Dream Emulator" and of course the game that popularized the genre "The Stanley Parable". There are no doubt more decent walking simulators than that, but these two games highlight that a Walking Simulator can be done right.
Almost all Walking Simulators forget to include gameplay in their so-called games.
And a game without gameplay, is like a movie without pictures. It's not technically what you're trying to call it.

And since this topic is also about narrative-focused adventures. I think it's only fitting to bring up the format that Telltale games popularized. Which let's face it, are just 3D visual novels. Except traditional visual novels are generally done better, yet never get the same level of recognition.

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