Controversies

[Danvzare]

Oops. Looks like I hit a sore spot in my previous post. Sorry about that.
But I stand by what I said, and this thread pretty much proves it. When it comes down to severe and spontaneous outrage, the bias alone can make it impossible to distinguish between what's real information and what's misinformation. Making searching an impossible chore. A good example is the recent controversy surrounding Pokemon Sword and Shield. Thankfully there was a nice video I found that explained it all objectively.

Also, I would like to add, that I still don't know what the Fez 2 controversy is about. (Apparently he said something, but I don't know what.)
Or the Channel Awesome controversy that happened recently. (I think it has something to do with maternity leave, but I'm not sure.)
Could I also have quick explanations for those as well. Pretty please. 

Because seriously, this whole not-knowing thing, really does grind my gears!
You lot may be part of the hive-mind, but I've yet to be assimilated. So I need things explaining to me.
(It also grinds my gears slightly, how negatively everyone here reacted to me not liking not-knowing. But that's exactly why I didn't know in the first place.)

By the way, thanks Blondbraid for the video. I'll watch that now.

[VampireWombat]

The Channel Awesome one is more complicated than being able to give a quick explanation. As for being recent? The major fallout from it happened over a year ago. Maternity leave might have been a part of it, but I don't remember. There was a Google document released with a lot of complaints about treatment of those who made videos for CA. And CA basically responded with "We're sorry you feel that way." The document contained information ranging from treatment at crossover events, how Lupa got kicked off the site, all the way to cover ups about sexual harassment and a certain sexual predator who ended up committing suicide...
If you want a longer explanation, there's a movie length documentary on Youtube called The Downfall of Channel Awesome.

[Danvzare]

The Channel Awesome one is more complicated than being able to give a quick explanation. As for being recent? The major fallout from it happened over a year ago. Maternity leave might have been a part of it, but I don't remember. There was a Google document released with a lot of complaints about treatment of those who made videos for CA. And CA basically responded with "We're sorry you feel that way." The document contained information ranging from treatment at crossover events, how Lupa got kicked off the site, all the way to cover ups about sexual harassment and a certain sexual predator who ended up committing suicide...
If you want a longer explanation, there's a movie length documentary on Youtube called The Downfall of Channel Awesome.

Thank you so very VERY much! 
This is the kind of thing I looked for but could never find.
And that explanation was brilliant. Thank you. 

Also, sorry everyone for getting things off-topic.

[Blondbraid]

By the way, thanks Blondbraid for the video. I'll watch that now.

Yeah, I'd recommend you watch it before making any more assumptions on the subject, and I'd say as an advice in general that one should look things up (and use trusted sources) before making assumptions.

To give a personal example, I used to think American movies making fun of black people eating watermelons was just a harmless silly stereotype, but it turns out that that stereotype had some nasty roots in slavery
where slave owners used the idea of "the black man doesn't want anything more from life than a cold slice of watermelon once the workday is over" to enforce and promote the idea that black people were happy in slavery (Source).

I know it can be hard for people who didn't grow up facing any form of discrimination or harassment based on their race, gender or sexuality to see why it would be such a big deal, but I guess you can compare it to how most people in northern Europe aren't bothered by Malaria, but just because it isn't a problem to Swedes it doesn't mean it isn't a real and valid concern to people living in Uganda, or that Ugandans are dumb or frivolous when complaining about Malaria outbreaks.

[Jack]

To give a personal example, I used to think American movies making fun of black people eating watermelons was just a harmless silly stereotype, but it turns out that that stereotype had some nasty roots in slavery
where slave owners used the idea of "the black man doesn't want anything more from life than a cold slice of watermelon once the workday is over" to enforce and promote the idea that black people were happy in slavery (Source).

This is funny. I don't recall seeing the watermelon one in a film, but I have seen the "grape soda" one. What's up with that?

[Crimson Wizard]

I was genuinely surprised when learnt about "watermelon" issue in the past, because of all the food watermelons were probably last thing I could associate with USA; judging by popular media at least 

[Mandle]

We had a black teacher at the school I worked for and one of the parents had given us a free watermelon one summer.

I asked the teacher if he wanted some and he said "Oh, right! Are you gonna ask me if I want some fried chicken with that?"

I had heard of the stereotype but hadn't thought of it when I was asking the question.

I replied "Sorry man, I'm from Australia and that's not really a thing there."

He said "Naw it's fine. It's just not something that a white American would ever ask a black person."

I said "So, you don't want any then?"

And he said "Of course I do! I fuckin' love watermelon!"

[cat]

I've never heard of this watermelon issue before. I wouldn't even have noticed, because I like watermelon so it's a natural thing to eat it.

@Mandle: It's also worth pointing out that Japan has a culture of giving fruits as presents. Where I live, it would be really weird to give a watermelon to a teacher.

[Crimson Wizard]

Lol, in Russia there's opposite stereotype, where people of certain ethnicity(ies) are selling watermelons (because south where they live watermelons grow best).

[LimpingFish]

Yeah, the watermelon thing is common knowledge to me. If you were exposed to a lot of American culture growing up, as I was, it, along with countless other stereotypes, appears in movies, TV (any sitcom with a black character), music, the routines of almost all black comedians of the last fifty years...you can't help but absorb it through osmosis.

That's why, in general, I don't really understand white America's (at least those people over twenty years old) current propensity for playing dumb -unless it's a willful ignorance...- when it comes to their country's past relationship with black people. References to it are, have been, and continue to be, literally everywhere.

[Danvzare]

Yeah, the watermelon thing is common knowledge to me. If you were exposed to a lot of American culture growing up, as I was, it, along with countless other stereotypes, appears in movies, TV (any sitcom with a black character), music, the routines of almost all black comedians of the last fifty years...you can't help but absorb it through osmosis.

That's why, in general, I don't really understand white America's (at least those people over twenty years old) current propensity for playing dumb -unless it's a willful ignorance...- when it comes to their country's past relationship with black people. References to it are, have been, and continue to be, literally everywhere.

You know when you learn something new, and then you start seeing it everywhere. (Baader-Meinhof phenomenon.)
That's why.
It was always there, but you never noticed it because you didn't regard it as important, and therefore just blanked it.
Then one day someone tells you it and you can finally see it.

I know this, because I'm one of them.  I never noticed the watermelon thing even existed until a few years ago. Let alone that it was a racist thing.

Calling people dumb, ignorant, or even naive for this, has always come across as being rude to me. Like you're being punished for not being more racist. 
But that's just my two cents on the matter.

[Blondbraid]

Calling people dumb, ignorant, or even naive for this, has always come across as being rude to me. Like you're being punished for not being more racist. 
But that's just my two cents on the matter.

I'd say it's more of a case of people getting upset because they feel you're not taking what's a genuine problem to them seriously.

To illustrate my point, imagine you're in school and there's a guy who's been bullying and harassing you for the entire year, making your life hell and you can't avoid him by skipping school because then your grades will suffer.
And when you try to tell someone else in your school about what the bully's been doing to you all this time, they say "Him? But he seemed like such a nice guy when I talked to him and I can't imagine him doing such a horrible thing!
But if he's bothering you so much you can just avoid being in the same building as him!"

In that situation, wouldn't it be hard to not be at least a bit angry at the person you're talking to for remaining ignorant and immediately questioning you instead of the behavior of your bully?

And that's not going into the people who are being willfully obtuse as an excuse not to change their behavior, like accusing whomever bringing up something racist/sexist of being the real racist/sexist, which is absurd once you think about it.
Just imagine this logic being applied to literally any other situation and you'll se how it falls apart, like for example, say there is a bar fight, but when you try to tell the bouncer at the bar he'll chide you for being obsessed with violence and
making up violent fantasies for attention while the barfight is literally happening right next to him.

I'm not saying people who genuinely aren't aware of what sexist or racist discrimination looks like exist (and I was one of them too in case of the latter),
but the problem is when those who don't know wind up getting defensive and using the same language as of those who are being willfully obtuse, and that puts people on edge.

I think the most important thing to remember is that while there are trolls who want to anger and offend people, no one wants to get angry and upset and offended,
and neither can the overwhelming majority of people simply choose not to be angry or offended at something upsetting them, and it's ridiculous to ask them to.

The X-men were originally created with mutants as a fictional stand-in for all marginalized groups and the civil rights movement,
and I think this line from the second movie wonderfully illustrates what hearing "I don't see race or gender" feels like for women and minorities:

[Jack]

The difference between what you're talking about and your examples, is that one is violence and the other is words. Lots of people these days conflate the two, and that's their business, but when you're being rude or angry at this oblivious stranger it's really for not immediately seeing things your way.

The person who says "I don't see race or gender" has gone out of their way to see everyone as equal, against obviously visible differences, and you're saying this is not good enough.

[LimpingFish]

Just to be clear, I don't want to chastise people for not being aware of certain stereotypes and I'm certainly not accusing those who say they are unaware as somehow being latent racists. That would be silly. Nor am I implying that people who aren't familiar with these stereotypes are somehow lacking, either mentally or morally.

I realize what I said in my previous post is a massive generalization, because it was intended as such, and not as a direct critique of any one individual.

But...

I'm Irish. I'm a white, almost middle-aged Irish dude. And I know these things. I didn't go out of my way to know these things. As I said, it happened through cultural osmosis. I'm never lived in or even visited the US. I don't have a vested interest in race politics, or the plight of black people in America, yet I've obtained this knowledge.

And that's the crux of my argument, I suppose. When it's so prevalent that even an Irish cracker can say "Yeah, I knew that", how come there are so many white Americans who apparently missed out on it?

[milkanannan]

What sparked this thread?

[Snarky]

It was split off from the "What grinds my gears" thread.

[Blondbraid]

The difference between what you're talking about and your examples, is that one is violence and the other is words. Lots of people these days conflate the two, and that's their business,.

If only it was that simple and words just stayed words. However, virtually everyone who's ever been in a fight can tell you that it's incredibly rare for one to start with straight-up physical assault,
it's almost always precluded by verbal threats and threats of violence. Also, it's been shown that genocide is precluded by dehumanizing language and discrimination, and the perpetrators use slurs and similar
to dehumanize a minority until killing them becomes accepted. I strongly recommend everyone to read up on the 10 stages of genocide, here is the link.

Now you might say that not all hurtful words or verbal threats automatically lead to violence, and not all will, but they will contribute to a culture where violence against minorities are accepted,
and all those kinds of words and jokes risk emboldening neo-nazis and their likes to become more violent and more open with their violence and make it easier for their groups to recruit followers.

but when you're being rude or angry at this oblivious stranger it's really for not immediately seeing things your way.

The person who says "I don't see race or gender" has gone out of their way to see everyone as equal, against obviously visible differences, and you're saying this is not good enough.

You're right that I don't think acting like everyone is equal when they're clearly not isn't good enough, but I've never tried to be rude.

In none of my comments have I denied that genuinely ignorant people don't exist and I even admitted to having been ignorant myself.
All I've ever tried to do is to, in the nicest manner I can, explain why certain things are harmful. Exactly what of it comes across as angry or rude
to you? Likewise, LimpingFish, outright said he didn't want to chastise anyone for being ignorant.

Pardon me for making assumptions, but it appears that by calling me rude, you are trying to shift the focus from what arguments I am making
to which tone you assume I'm saying them in, and shut down the discussion by derailing it into an argument about tone.

The problem is of course, that to most members of a privileged group, anything a marginalized person asks for or explains to them is treated as rude demands by default,
like the scene in Oliver Twist where he asks "Please Sir, may I have some more?". It doesn't matter that he's asking for more in the most polite manner possible, or that he's just
asking for a spoonful of more gruel, the mere act of asking is treated as a threat and insult to the orphanage managers.

If you want to prove me wrong, then by all means share an example on how a marginalized person explained the discrimination they face to you in a way that didn't come off as rude to you.

[Mandle]

no one wants to get angry and upset and offended,

Are we using the same internet?! 

[Blondbraid]

no one wants to get angry and upset and offended,

Are we using the same internet?! 

Well, ask yourself, have you ever wanted to get sad and angry? 

Seriously though, I think a huge reason we see so many bad arguments online is thanks to people making that assumption.

[Jack]

You're right that I don't think acting like everyone is equal when they're clearly not isn't good enough.

If the person who treats you equally is not doing enough then equality is not what you're after.

All I've ever tried to do is to, in the nicest manner I can, explain why certain things are harmful. Exactly what of it comes across as angry or rude
to you? Likewise, LimpingFish, outright said he didn't want to chastise anyone for being ignorant.

I was referring to the topic, it was the post you replied to, defending this behaviour:

Calling people dumb, ignorant, or even naive for this, has always come across as being rude to me. Like you're being punished for not being more racist. 

Now you might say that not all hurtful words or verbal threats automatically lead to violence, and not all will, but they will contribute to a culture where violence against minorities are accepted,
and all those kinds of words and jokes risk emboldening neo-nazis and their likes to become more violent and more open with their violence and make it easier for their groups to recruit followers.

Wow, these watermelons are dangerous things.

No, they're not, that was sarcasm. Were you also being sarcastic, or did you really want to stop everyone from using a joke because it might cause a genocide?

I really hate making posts like these, where you have to quote every relevant part separately and explain why it's wrong. But you're wrong so much.

cracker

This makes a point I wanted to make before. Why did you use this word? Because it's funny. Honkie is even funnier. Are my toes supposed to curl up instead and me rapidly dessicate like a dye witch because of a word referencing something against a white? Are all us honkies gonna get killed now (with watermelons)? In the 80s and 90s, when these films were made, these things were funny, because racism was a thing of the past, something we for the most part could examine academically. It's hard to remember now but this was an even less extreme version of the America that elected Obama, half a black man. This was before the corporate media brought it to the forefront of global consciousness as a way to divide. Actually, if you want to be pedantic about it, and I know some here are into that, if you follow the "oh no it will remind people of slavery from 400 years ago that no one alive today experienced" route, then "cracker" would be offensive to blacks too, because apparently it's a reference to being the whip cracker.

Jokes are and have always been a relief valve to society. It's a distraction, like video games before they had to become another medium for corporate social engineering. Young people lost their future, but there wasn't trouble until these relief valves started being taken away.