Author Topic: Controversies  (Read 2503 times)

Re: Controversies
« Reply #40 on: 28 Aug 2019, 10:21 »
I'm not talking about people I disagree with, like for instance certain reactionary man-children who grace this forum with their presence. I'm talking about the Charlottesville type. Or yes, the Richard Spencer type. Or Weev, or the "crying nazi". You know, actual neonazis, or nazis, for short.

The ones who keep holding rallies, recruiting disillusioned young white males on youtube, and, oh right, murdering people. Which is the actual terrorism going on, right-wing terrorism.

Punching them is not exactly vigilante justice; it's supposed to humiliate them. Who cares whether their jaw hurts for a few hours? They're fucking nazis.
« Last Edit: 28 Aug 2019, 10:24 by Khris »
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Re: Controversies
« Reply #41 on: 28 Aug 2019, 12:39 »
Funny how Jack shifted the entire discussion to nazi punching when he ran out of arguments on the original issue with racist jokes...

And comparing communists to nazis is a false equivalence, firstly because while communist dictators killed more, it's because there have been dozens of communist dictatorships
that were in power for decades, whereas the Nazis were only in power for 12 years in one country. You can't fairly compare the number of dead in a dozen countries during an entire century
against just one country during one decade and decide the latter were morally better just because they didn't get the opportunity to cause more deaths.

Secondly, killing isn't a more inherent part of communism than capitalism or feudalism or libertarianism. If people dying from starvation due to failed five year plans means communism is inherently and unavoidably evil,
wouldn't all the dead from deliberate mismanagement of the Indian colonies by British rule mean capitalism is just as inherently evil?

But nazism is a different ballpark because those who died in the holocaust didn't die from mere mismanagement, they were deliberately executed because nazi ideology demands that the "wrong races" should be
killed, and no agricultural management in the world would have changed the fact that the nazis wanted to kill those people.

Jack, do you also think a drunk driver accidentally running over a random kid and a perfectly sober driver deliberately running over a kid on crutches just because he disliked disabled people are equally bad from a moral standpoint?

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Re: Controversies
« Reply #42 on: 28 Aug 2019, 14:56 »
The ones who keep holding rallies, recruiting disillusioned young white males on youtube, and, oh right, murdering people. Which is the actual terrorism going on, right-wing terrorism.

Punching them is not exactly vigilante justice; it's supposed to humiliate them. Who cares whether their jaw hurts for a few hours? They're fucking nazis.

Criminals and terrorists are handled by law. And they should be handled by law. That is why we as a society have set up a codified system of laws and have centralized organizations responsible for upholding those laws.

You saying you want to punch people to humiliate them only forces people like me to do something we REALLY don't want to do: side with the goddamn nazis! I don't want to side with the nazis or alt-right, I'd much prefer if we ignored them and let them be and hold their silly parades and wave their silly flags. Neither of those things is illegal or harmful. Waving a flag doesn't kill people. Marching and chanting and singing don't kill people.

Punching people can kill people. And so, if I saw on a street a genuine armband-wearing flag-waving goose-stepping nazi, and you: I'd always step in on the side of the one being punched.

Now kindly stop turning idiots into victims of oppression and giving them free political points. We all know how that went back in the 30's.
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Re: Controversies
« Reply #43 on: 28 Aug 2019, 15:26 »
Waving a flag doesn't kill people. Marching and chanting and singing don't kill people.

As someone who lives in the country that lost 6.000.000 citizens I dare to say: all massive killings in last century started from chanting, marching and singins that no one stopped when it was possible. I know who was marching and chanting in 30s. And what they did next.

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Re: Controversies
« Reply #44 on: 28 Aug 2019, 15:32 »
As someone who lives in the country that lost 6.000.000 citizens I dare to say: all massive killings in last century started from chanting, marching and singins that no one stopped when it was possible. I know who was marching and chanting in 30s. And what they did next.

And you think punching some people in the street is what will stop that from happening again? I admire your optimism, and pity your utter idiocy.
It wasn't the flag waving or shouting that killed people, it was the fact that so many people subscribed to violent ideologies and believed they needed to act them out. Funny how some people think that appyling their own violent ideologies is somehow better and less dangerous a path for a society to take.

EDIT: So as not to spam the thread further and give Snarky a headache, I'll stopreplying here for now and let you folks get back to the original topic. I just feel that whenever I see people calling for mindless violence, someone needs to step in and make a stand against such violent ideologies so that people at least think twice before succumbing to such low acts. If anyone wishes to carry on the conversation, my PM's are open and I can be found on the AGS Discord as well.
« Last Edit: 28 Aug 2019, 15:37 by WHAM »
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Re: Controversies
« Reply #45 on: 28 Aug 2019, 16:10 »
So you are indeed a volunteer nazi safety advocate. Thanks for confirming.
You're also implying that violence against nazis is just as bad as violence by nazis, which also makes you a nazi-sympathiser.

Why don't you just fuck off, forever?
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Re: Controversies
« Reply #46 on: 28 Aug 2019, 16:14 »
Reading this thread, it's obvious that I've been unfair in the past when I've called WHAM a Nazi.

He's clearly someone who hates Nazis, but would step in on their side if he saw you punching one.

Re: Controversies
« Reply #47 on: 28 Aug 2019, 16:56 »

It wasn't the flag waving or shouting that killed people, it was the fact that so many people subscribed to violent ideologies and believed they needed to act them out.



You know what, I'm just going to keep ignoring this thread. My mental health will thank me for it.

(quickly gives Khris a thumbs up and runs away to other threads to talk about Tool and David Lynch and whatever else pops up)

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Re: Controversies
« Reply #48 on: 28 Aug 2019, 20:10 »
Funny how Jack shifted the entire discussion to nazi punching when he ran out of arguments on the original issue with racist jokes...

And people call me paranoid. You don't have to keep defending your nazi meme. I was using it as an example of how things you say could get you in trouble if people didn't keep their heads about them.

And comparing communists to nazis is a false equivalence, firstly because while communist dictators killed more, it's because there have been dozens of communist dictatorships
that were in power for decades, whereas the Nazis were only in power for 12 years in one country. You can't fairly compare the number of dead in a dozen countries during an entire century
against just one country during one decade and decide the latter were morally better just because they didn't get the opportunity to cause more deaths.

No, Stalin's people killed many more than Hitler's, and in more gruesome ways too. It wasn't just incompetence. Unspeakable crimes were committed against the Germans in the ethnic cleansing in Europe after the Nazis were defeated. Millions. Like the Ukrainians that were deliberately starved to death in the Holodomor, they were targeted for who they were. Do you even Road of Bones?

Jack, do you also think a drunk driver accidentally running over a random kid and a perfectly sober driver deliberately running over a kid on crutches just because he disliked disabled people are equally bad from a moral standpoint?

The why doesn't matter when the two kids both end up equally dead, and one's life is not worth more than another because he has crutches. Both the perpetrators are guilty of killing someone, and both should go to prison. I have no interest in hand wringing about which murder was really the worst, or seeing how far we can get lost in moral relativism. This only gets in the way of punishing who is responsible.

So I have a question for you in return. Do you think someone deserves to be punched for refusing to say that someone with a five-o'clock-shadow and a penis is a woman?

The truth is that most people on the alt-right don't refer to themselves as nazis, but their opponents sure do. Neo nazis are just as ridiculous to me now as they have always been, they are posers who want to look tough under the banner that the media has built up the most. Richard Spencer is a homosexual, FFS. Hitler would have him shot without giving it a second's thought. Does he even have a uniform? How many communists has he killed? 0. Fake nazi.

I have said it before and I don't know how else to put this. You can't blame someone for the crimes of others, even if they claim to belong to the same group. Especially when one is guilty of murder and the other is guilty of saying things you don't like to hear.

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Re: Controversies
« Reply #49 on: 28 Aug 2019, 20:55 »
I'm not sure whether facts are important to these kind of threads, but Richard Spencer isn't gay.

Here's his ex-wife detailing years of domestic abuse: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/richard-spencer-wife-domestic-violence-nina-kouprianova-alt-right-russia-a8729226.html

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Re: Controversies
« Reply #50 on: 28 Aug 2019, 21:12 »
Are you suggesting no gays have ex wives, Ali? How is this proof of anything.

I admit I don't know if he is actually a gay, I don't know very much about him, basically just that's he's famous for claiming "homosexuality is the last bastion of implicit white identity", and that he is believed to be gay. It may just be an assumption that the internet made. My point stands though. Hitler would have him shot.

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Re: Controversies
« Reply #51 on: 28 Aug 2019, 21:41 »
How can he be famous for saying something that only has 5 results on google? One of them being the neo-nazi website Stormfront?

He's certainly not openly gay, because he's publicly been in a relationship with several women. All I can find is him making homophobic remarks. Because he's a straight, neo-nazi.

This is stupid.


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Re: Controversies
« Reply #52 on: 28 Aug 2019, 21:53 »
Because he's a straight, neo-nazi.

Even if that were true, a neo-nazi is not a nazi. They were a running joke for many years until the media needed a bogeyman.

It is stupid, even more so than watermelons.

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Re: Controversies
« Reply #53 on: 28 Aug 2019, 22:00 »
You do realise that contemporary commentators didn't take the actual Nazis seriously until it was far too late? Book-burnings were merely tutted at.

I was wrong to say this is stupid. YOU are stupid, and I'm stupid to try and reason with you. Clearly, no Nazi will ever be enough of a Nazi to satisfy you.


Re: Controversies
« Reply #54 on: 28 Aug 2019, 22:26 »
This thread is stupid.

Re: Controversies
« Reply #55 on: 28 Aug 2019, 22:58 »
Quote
No, Stalin's people killed many more than Hitler's, and in more gruesome ways too. It wasn't just incompetence. Unspeakable crimes were committed against the Germans in the ethnic cleansing in Europe after the Nazis were defeated. Millions.
Unlike you, I'm actually bringing up real sources to back up my claims, which I link to here for everyone to read, concluded that; "On the basis of a careful analysis of the nature of Soviet society and the economy of the 1930s I concluded that it was impossible for there to have been more than four to five million in the labour camps in the late 1930s. This is a conclusion that has now been totally vindicated", and that is only the people being imprisoned in the camps, out of the actual executions and deliberate killings; "Other sources gave figures as high as three million executions, and Conquest concluded: `It will be seen that no exact estimate of total executions can be made, but that the number was most probably something around a million". I do not deny that the death tolls would be higher if one was to also include those dead from famine, but I've already linked to just as high numbers of civilians dying from famine in Brittish India, and deciding that Slavic people dying from famine and mismanagement is a crime against humanity but not Indian people dying from famine and mismanagement takes some serious hypocrisy.

And once again, Stalin's rule lasted for three decades, whereas Hitler's rule only lasted for 12 years, yet Hitler had six million Jews and an additional 11 million people murdered in the Holocaust, and if you count the civilians killed in occupied areas, the number gets even higher.

And killing people "in more gruesome ways" is a ridiculous claim, you can't objectively measure how painful or gruesome a method of killing is, and even if you could, there is no form of execution or torture practiced by the NKVD that wasn't also used by the Gestapo. If you need an example, read up on what Gestapo officer Klaus Barbie did to captured resistance leaders. How is that any way less gruesome than any of the torture or executions Stalin's regime comitted?
Quote
The why doesn't matter when the two kids both end up equally dead, and one's life is not worth more than another because he has crutches. Both the perpetrators are guilty of killing someone, and both should go to prison. I have no interest in hand wringing about which murder was really the worst, or seeing how far we can get lost in moral relativism.
The law of virtually all known countries do treat unintentional and intentional killings differently though.

But you're basically saying that the terrorist Rakhmat Akilov was not any worse of a human being than a random drunk slipping on the pedals.

Also, didn't you also give the communists flack for killing people in "more gruesome ways"? If the method or motive make no moral difference to you, why bring that up?

Also, your last question for me did a pretty good job of making you sound exactly like a transphobe.
Plus statistically speaking, trans women are far more likely to be physically assaulted than the other way around.

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Re: Controversies
« Reply #56 on: 29 Aug 2019, 00:04 »
You need to add up everything Stalin did, not just his own people he had imprisoned and murdered for saying the wrong thing. There's millions of murders in the Holodomor alone. And this wasn't "oops my ideology is actually that of a child and doesn't work", that was intentional starvation. Don't get me started on the English empire, because they are some of the all-time biggest filth in history. More than 20,000 women and children of my own people died in their concentration camps.

True, the law makes a distinction between manslaughter and murder, and this is important. In my opinion though a drunk driver should probably get the same sentence than murder, more than a normal manslaughter charge, but that's just my opinion. Also I can bring up "more gruesome ways" because in your example both children died instantly. (This is such a stupid thread)

I would appreciate if you would answer my question instead of playing another victim card.

I'll do my best to not be involved in the rest of this argument. Continue being wrong at your leisure. ;)
« Last Edit: 29 Aug 2019, 00:28 by Jack »

Re: Controversies
« Reply #57 on: 29 Aug 2019, 01:04 »
Quote
Also I can bring up "more gruesome ways" because in your example both children died instantly.
Did you read the same article I linked to with Klaus Barbie? Right in the middle of the section on the second world war, it says that he
Spoiler: ShowHide
skinned a man alive and immersed his head in ammonia.
There was no instant death there, and I see no mention of the two children dying instantly that you mentioned. If you want to reference the sources I link you should actually read them before doing so.

Quote
You need to add up everything Stalin did, not just his own people he had imprisoned and murdered for saying the wrong thing.
Then you'd need to do the same thing with Hitler and count not only the ones who died in the Holocaust, but all other civilians who were killed by the
Wehrmacht, or died as a result of his policies of eradicating slavs in order to make lebensraum for Aryans. You can count it however you want, it still doesn't
change the fact that Hitler only was in power one third as long as Stalin, yet still caused the death of about as many people in that shorter time span.

Also, I thought I did answer your question. Trans people should have very right in the world to defend themselves,
and considering the violence they face, they have more reason than most. If you can't take that for an answer that
only says more about you than of me.

To everyone else reading this thread I ask, who sounds like the more reasonable debater, the one using actual links to real sources to back up their claims, or the one using emojis whilst talking about mass murder?

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Re: Controversies
« Reply #58 on: 29 Aug 2019, 01:13 »
Clearly, no Nazi will ever be enough of a Nazi to satisfy you.

What better way to avoid being called a Nazi than by pushing the bar for Nazism further and further way from your own views?

Of course, the best way to avoid being called a Nazi, is to refrain from posting opinions that make you look like one.


« Last Edit: 29 Aug 2019, 01:16 by LimpingFish »
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Re: Controversies
« Reply #59 on: 29 Aug 2019, 02:08 »
I hate Illinois Nazi's!

They have no hope against the Washington 4 Skins. (Ion Fury is a damn fun game!)

Oh, the "Illinois Nazis" was used in a game?

The original line is from the movie "The Blues Brothers". The game devs must have used as an easter egg reference.