Hard Brexit: what consequences?

Started by TheFrighter, Fri 30/08/2019 20:58:00

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ManicMatt

Obviously I can only speak for myself, but yes, I was aware of that being the case, but after seeing how many racists suddenly came out of the woodwork after brexit voting, I didn't realise just how many there were.

My vote was almost a throw of the dice, I still hadn't decided when I was standing there with the pencil in my hand. I could see potential benefits to both options, from the bulls**t I'd been fed.

milkanannan

Manic, what were the benefits you saw at the time to leave?

ManicMatt

I can't remember. It was so long ago..

Politics is something that generally goes over my head anyways, I just saw lists saying benefits to both and its all blah blah blah to me! I shouldn't even be involved in this thread but I thought I'd confess my sin, lol.

Ali

#23
To be fair to Matt, people were promised all sorts of things - many of them contradictory.  Essentially, we were told that we could retain the benefits of the EU without any of the obligations. So we were told we'd stay in the single market and have freedom of movement, and EU nationals living in the UK were repeatedly promised they'd be secure. Meanwhile, we were told, we would be able to limit immigration from Europe and spend the money that goes to the EU on (e.g.) the National Health Service.

Conservatives Leavers were told we'd withdraw from the hated European Convention on Human Rights, and stop accepting EU law. Tabloid newspapers have been running largely fabricated stories about absurd EU laws for decades - most famously that the EU wanted to regulate the shape of bananas. Left-wing Leavers - for they are many - were told we'd escape from a neoliberal free-trade bloc (which effectively overruled Greece's socialist government) and be able to renationalise power stations etc.

The one problem with all of this, is that it was bollocks.

Blondbraid

Personally, I think the only fun thing that's come out of this whole mess is that Hugh Grant posted a tweet calling Boris Johnson
"an over-promoted rubber bath toy". If that's not the most insane insult I've heard this week I don't know what is.  (laugh)


selmiak

Is this a one way action? I mean, turkey applies to come into the EU long enough, after maybe a year of brexit and seeing things go downhill britain could apply to come into the union again. Or maybe it is great and the EU wants to join the united kingdom union...

Scavenger

You'd think the racist motive of the Leave campaign would be blatantly obvious, considering one of their propaganda pieces was literally mirroring nazi propaganda about immigrants being teeming vermin.

Honestly even with the perfect reasons to leave, why would anyone trust the Tories to do so? They already declare people Fit For Workâ,,¢ and leave them to die, think of what they could do to disabled people once we no longer have the Human Rights charter. I have to fight for my means to live hard enough without the added stress of not having human rights, access to medication (without which I will stop functioning properly), or the NHS. If the tories can't even organise their own party without resorting to heavy handed threats and telling the Queen to shut down parliament, I doubt they'll be capable of supplying the UK with anything at all post-brexit.

You wanna know the effect of brexit on UK games? It'll suck. Hard. And vulnerable people will die.

ManicMatt

I voted for Labour/Corbin, and I've never voted for the Tories.

It's funny how something like Asthma is seen as nothing these days, but if one day, I couldn't get access to it, I could die, so it's not exactly nothing.

And that seems about right, Alistair.

Jack

Quote from: LimpingFish on Sun 01/09/2019 03:38:33
And this is where my anger over Brexit stems. I scream it at the TV every time Boris and his chums talk about reopening negotiations or the possibility of a "better" deal. The is no better deal! There will be no more negotiations! You are not going to get a better deal upon leaving the EU then you had when you were in it. It's madness to think otherwise. You are not going to come out on top in this, deal or no deal. If leaving the EU resulted in things getting better (or even staying comparably the same), every country would be doing it! Get. Fucking. Real.

Don't they mean a better exit deal than "hard brexit", as in they're hoping for an exit deal with some concessions rather than no concessions?

Cassiebsg

#29
The deal has been negotiated to "death", it went to vote and been voted No every single time. EU has said several times that it's that deal or no deal. They're convinced they can get a better deal and thus continue to vote the deal down, hoping for a better deal. But that won't happen. So yeah. hard Brexit is currently the most like outcome.

In the end we all lose, directly or indirectly. But that's just my opinion...
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

LimpingFish

Quote from: ManicMatt on Sun 01/09/2019 12:25:08
Another awful thing is when I hear people calling all brexit voters racist, and doubtless there would likely have been a number of racist people who voted to leave, but they are wrong to assume everyone is.

Quote from: Ali on Sun 01/09/2019 12:41:20
I think it would be wrong and unconstructive to say that all Brexit voters are racist*...

(*Or indeed, that Remainers aren't racist.)

Well, "Racist" is a strong word; one that conjures images of burning crosses and lynchings. So when you opine that not everybody who voted to leave is a racist, undoubtedly you'd have those very people agreeing with you, because, as I said, a "Racist" is envisioned as a hideous monster, and not Jim from down the end of the road, who just want's to see political control of Britain back in British hands, and maybe a cap on immigration numbers. And you'd be right, he's probably not a racist.

And I'm sure there where a significant number of people, like Matt, who just voted on what they thought seemed best for their country. I don't blame them, nor do I resent them. They shouldn't feel bad for doing it. No, I place the blame squarely with Westminister. I blame the Tories for being, well, Tories. But I also blame those in opposition for being complacent and ineffectual, and for letting down their own constituents in so spectacularly a way as to not even deserve their vote in the future.

But, and it's a big one, I feel that the issue of race, of Nationalism, of the fallacy of a return to a "traditional" Britain (much like an America of white picket fences...and whiter neighborhoods), played a major part in both the campaign to leave (covertly and overtly) and the passing of the leave vote. And this is something that future Britain is going to have to deal with, Brexit or no Brexit.

I'd also like to add that that voting "Remain", as Ali pointed out, is no guarantee of purely humanitarian reasoning. There are many cold, hard, financial factors for staying in the EU, that don't necessarily include the love of your fellow man.

Quote from: Jack on Sun 01/09/2019 19:19:38
Don't they mean a better exit deal than "hard brexit", as in they're hoping for an exit deal with some concessions rather than no concessions?

A Hard Brexit simply means that no deal will be agreed upon when the deadline comes to pass, and as such, no safeguards will be in place.

As Cassie said, a deal was hashed out months ago, one which contained concessions on both sides. Ireland made concessions, mainland Europe made concessions, and the UK made concessions. All of these concessions were weighed and balanced, and, at the end of that process, former British PM Theresa May signed off on it. This deal then went before Parliament, to be voted upon. Hard-line "Brexiteers", among others, largely from within Mrs. May's own party, voted it down. So an extension was given, to allow the PM time to persuade her party that this was the best deal for Britain (and for everybody involved) and another vote was scheduled. It again failed to pass. There may have been a third vote, but I lost count.

None of this really matters now, since it's become clear that it was all just part of a power-play by Boris Johnson to seize control of the Tories. May is out, BJ is in, and here we are.

Quote from: selmiak on Sun 01/09/2019 16:36:49
Is this a one way action?

In theory, any country that want's back in would essentially find itself back to square one, and in the same position as a country seeking entry for the first time. I say in theory, because it's never been attempted as nobody has ever withdrawn.


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ManicMatt

I knew there was a reason I always liked Limpy Fish! And yet I still don't know him (?) outside AGS or er, Steam apparently.

All well said, and I appreciate the understanding.

Galen

#32
Quote from: Ali on Sun 01/09/2019 12:41:20
I think it would be wrong and unconstructive to say that all Brexit voters are racist*, but I think some people would prefer our analysis of Brexit to leave out the question of race altogether. Which would be a bigger mistake, because it's obvious that Islamophobia and other forms of racism were significant factors.

Which is particularly frustrating as:

A. 'Muslamics' and syrian refugees both will be pretty much completely unaffected by it.

B. The country's leadership has routinely refused to exercise EU provisions for immigration control as well as fairly sensible measures like exit checks that even other EU member states use. Which in the end means one has to question how much control over immigration will any future leadership even attempt to impose post-brexit?

Meanwhile crying over 'sovereignty' while both refusing to take any action to make sure we're fairly represented in the EU including electing MEPs who literally spend their (paid!) time standing with their backs turned on the rest of the commitee and continuing to drag along Ireland and Scotland into the debacle under the ironic guise of stronger together. While of course those countries were against Brexit, and ignored. Whereas the UK as a whole votes in favour for 98% of EU laws and pretty much never use deigns to use a veto. So we're ignoring the votes of *our* member states, in order to escape a greater union who we both almost never disagree with and whom we've purposefully chosen not to be represented with. In order to escape immigration that we never attempted to control, from countries not in the EU. Or to escape 'EU red tape regulations' that we'll still have to abide with if we want to be able to export to nations that are still under those regulations. *sigh*

Quote from: Scavenger on Sun 01/09/2019 17:01:17
You'd think the racist motive of the Leave campaign would be blatantly obvious, considering one of their propaganda pieces was literally mirroring nazi propaganda about immigrants being teeming vermin.

You have no idea how much propaganda is out there on it. https://twitter.com/brexit_sham/status/1146029421578641408 A bunch of blonde white schoolgirls forced to pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of Europe, cue a montage of EU flags lining the streets of the UK. Basically playing up the EU as Nazis, while also invoking Nazi-esque fears of any threat to their aryan spawn. Sickening stuff.

WHAM

The UK won't be leaving the EU.
The nation lacks a proper democracy, and what sliver of democracy it has, has succumbed to a limited two-party system where smaller parties exist as unimportant outliers.

Thus the UK won't be abiding by the referendum and all the time and effort wasted on Brexit will be for naught. Nothing gained, plenty lost. A pitiable situation in all aspects, and along with many other policy decisions taken by the UK Government over the past 5 years or so, it has led to myself scrapping past plans of migrating to the UK one day. It's not a place I'd want to live in anymore.


As for how the theoretic Brexit might impact the videogame industry: that particular industry enjoys some lovely protections from such impacts. Global distribution platforms that enjoy prominence don't really care if you are in the EU or not, and so the only widespread impact (if any) is what comes from the UK's own internal legal changes. As for labour being free to move in and out of the UK, this is another area where the videogame industry enjoys some freedoms, in that most work done as part of this industry doesn't rely on being physically present. Outsourcing work and tasks abroad should not be widely impacted, even if Brexit takes place. Even payment methods shouldn't be much impacted, since the UK never adopted the Euro as its currency.

There may well be other aspects I am not seeing, but all in all it would seem to me like any impact on the games industry would be limited and temporary in nature.
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: The Night Falls, a community roleplaying game

Jack

Quote from: WHAM on Tue 03/09/2019 13:12:29
The UK won't be leaving the EU.

This has been my opinion too, but based on the terror language that was used in the media to describe what would happen if brexit should succeed.

LimpingFish

Quote from: ManicMatt on Mon 02/09/2019 13:20:44
All well said, and I appreciate the understanding.

No worries. :)

An Irish news program had a reporter outside Westminster today, talking to (amongst others) some people who regretted voting for Brexit. One man was so broken up about it, he was looking directly into the camera and apologizing to all of Ireland. I felt so bad for him, considering all he was guilty of was trusting in the people he had voted for.

Quote from: WHAM on Tue 03/09/2019 13:12:29
The nation lacks a proper democracy, and what sliver of democracy it has, has succumbed to a limited two-party system where smaller parties exist as unimportant outliers.

Well, the last two Conservative governments may not even have existed if not for the support of the DUP, and the DUP have been a major thorn in the side of those wishing to see a border-less resolution to the Northern Ireland situation. In fact, one could argue that the DUP, in it's unwavering stance against the inclusion of the Irish "backstop" contained in Theresa May's proposed Brexit deal, was a key factor in the failure of that deal to pass. Smaller parties are unimportant only until they're not, and while those at the extreme ends of the political spectrum might never have a chance, those that can find common ground with the larger parties can find themselves in a key position. Depending on you point of view, though, that might be part of the problem.

Quote from: Galen on Tue 03/09/2019 00:40:14
Meanwhile crying over 'sovereignty' while both refusing to take any action to make sure we're fairly represented in the EU including electing MEPs who literally spend their (paid!) time standing with their backs turned on the rest of the commitee and continuing to drag along Ireland and Scotland into the debacle under the ironic guise of stronger together. While of course those countries were against Brexit, and ignored.

Considering how much effort Britain put into stopping Scottish independence a few years back, it's funny how little the seem to care now, as they rush headlong into a situation that all but guarantees a strengthened argument for Scottish independence in the (very) near future.

Watching the news today (something I keep telling myself to stop doing, as the visual and aural assault of live politicians plays havoc with my IBS), the lies are still in full swing. Boris Johnson says the chances of a new deal are greater than ever (lie), Jacob Rees-Mogg insists they are fulfilling the will of the people (lie), and the irritating drone that emanates from the gaping hole beneath Michael Gove's nose is most certainly a lie.

The "Leave" campaign, regardless of any "valid" arguments that may have existed at its inception, has shown itself to be a con job, one that (dangerously) exploited the basest fears of modern society. In fact, the whole referendum on EU membership was nothing more than a short-sighted re-election tactic by David Cameron, which was then latched onto by virulent anti-EU parties such as UKIP, and self-promoters like Boris Johnson. Much like Trump becoming president, I don't think these people really expected (or cared, for that matter) to win, and were more interested in using the referendum for personal political gains. And that just makes the whole situation even more unforgivable.
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Ali

It infuriates me to see Jack and WHAM insisting there's a nebulous, undemocratic conspiracy to prevent Brexit.

The government (which had a tiny majority until today) has made every effort to push through an unpopular form of Brexit, and they've failed because Parliament has held them to account.

We have a Prime Minister who is a liar, who's responsible for spreading many of the myths about the EU which fuelled the Leave campaign. It was revealed today that he had been planning to prorogue Parliament (i.e. suspend it to make it harder for the opposition to block a no deal Brexit) since August, even though he said a few days ago he had no intention of doing that. He said he had no intention of calling election - now he's saying he will call a snap election. He said he didn't want to be Prime Minister.

He's a fucking liar, but it seems there's nothing he can do that would be more suspicious than whatever the ENTIRELY FICTIONAL shadowy elites are up to. And it's not just right-wing internet cretins who share in these conspiracies. Jacob Rees-Mogg today called his opponents 'Illuminati who are taking the powers to themselves'.

Men of enormous wealth and extraordinary privileged are telling us that the "elites" are out to destroy democracy, while they position themselves to make unprecedented changes to this country, with absolutely no mandate and a non-existent parliamentary majority. Bloody hell.

WHAM

#38
Quote from: Ali on Tue 03/09/2019 23:06:00
It infuriates me to see Jack and WHAM insisting there's a nebulous, undemocratic conspiracy to prevent Brexit.

No, not a conspiracy, and whether it is undemocratic depends on your interpretation of that word. I value direct democracy over parliamentary democracy, which is why I view referendums and direct votes by the people as being more valuable than the parliaments decisions, as it allows people to directly voice an opinion on a singular topic. The exact same method which is used to elect the parliament, which wields power on a more wider scale. (A fine system, and Finland has a very similar one, where an elected parliament holds the power, our president has a right to veto the parliament, and rare important issues are put to vote among the populace.)

To see the parliament reject the people's vote, to me, is wholly undemocratic and paints the entire political system in a bad light. For indeed, if the parliament can legally ignore the people's vote on one topic, what stops them from doing the same for another topic? What stops them, at that point, from rejecting the next general election result? Or the next referendum on some critically important and timely topic?


As for my point of "lacking a proper democracy": the UK system is archaic, outdated and confusing at best. It relies on tons of ancient rulings and precedents that are not properly codified, and seems like it could do with a proper overhaul to standardize the process of election, parliament, and who can do what within that system. (For a fresh example: see the outrage over the manner in which the prime minister is elected. The very people of the UK don't seem to know these things themselves.) Hell, the UK parliament figured out a standardized term limit for the parliament itself in 2011 if I am not mistaken! And has subsequently failed to produce a parliament stable enough to function within that framework.
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: The Night Falls, a community roleplaying game

TheFrighter

Quote from: WHAM on Tue 03/09/2019 13:12:29

As for how the theoretic Brexit might impact the videogame industry: that particular industry enjoys some lovely protections from such impacts. Global distribution platforms that enjoy prominence don't really care if you are in the EU or not, and so the only widespread impact (if any) is what comes from the UK's own internal legal changes. As for labour being free to move in and out of the UK, this is another area where the videogame industry enjoys some freedoms, in that most work done as part of this industry doesn't rely on being physically present. Outsourcing work and tasks abroad should not be widely impacted, even if Brexit takes place. Even payment methods shouldn't be much impacted, since the UK never adopted the Euro as its currency.

There may well be other aspects I am not seeing, but all in all it would seem to me like any impact on the games industry would be limited and temporary in nature.


Maybe you're right, Wham. Still, this thing sure will have some effects. Maybe even a cut of the prices, who knows.

_

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