Dealing with BAD "criticism".

Started by Furwerkstudio, Fri 17/01/2020 15:30:52

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Furwerkstudio

I was trying to get some advice on a webcomic that would be Kim Possible meets Kolchalk the Night Stalk, as I am a sucker for monster of the day stuff with a new threat to deal with each week and I noticed there was a lack of adventure comics aimed at kids on many comic hosting sites. It would focus on Candi Soloman, just a normal teenage girl who just keeps running into monsters and must find out their weakness to stop them using her wits, the environment, research (usually done by her sister or friend) and just raw luck.

The mass of advice I got?

Give her a gun, they can kill anything. And to make the monsters in her head. Also have lots of gore.

Ignoring a lot of things like this is suppose to be a kid focused in the vain of Mighty Max, the real adventures of Jonny Quest and Real Ghostbusters (something I had pointed out in the original and follow up posts) and I was imposing restrictions on myself that if it can't be soon in those shows it cannot be put in the comic, they really ignored repeatedly I was saying these monsters are supernatural, bullets and guns are going to be utterly useless against a lot of them and the idea was each monster would have a different weakness such as a special type of ritual must be performed, a very obvious weak spot, or a special kind of object. To be ignored, they demand I do it their way and only their way of a cold, dark adult story. One poster got mad at me and said, "well, that ruins my immersion! You can't do that!"

I had shelved the project even though I had the script done, several pages layout and began penciling them, I just felt defeated and wondering if the whole thing was worth it.

I am telling this story because I was wondering how do others deal with "bad"/wrong criticism where it feels like being given criticism for working on a car engine when I am trying to bake a cake, the two things so vastly different and have nothing to do with each other. Followed up with a clique getting mad for not following said advice.

Also how do you deal with advice/criticism like "you sux", "quit" and "kill ya self", when I look up how to deal with something like this on bing and google but all I get is "You MUST take all advice and criticisms, no matter what, it's good for you".

CaptainD

The idea that you must take all criticism is stupid in my opinion - though it depends how you define "criticism" exactly.  If it's constructive criticism then sure, take it and use it if you can to make your product better, or accept that it's valid criticism but actually implementing it is either beyond your scope or out of line with your vision, but if it's simply different tastes or just people being morons, then definitely ignore them!  Defining to yourself what is genuine criticism can of course be a bit difficult since it can feel like an attack on something you love and have worked hard on, but in any case "you sux", "quit" and "kill ya self" can safely be classed in the moron category and is definitely best ignored.

It sounds to me like you haven't really found your target audience - could you perhaps ask for feedback on forums / sites related to visual novels in the specific style you are wanting to create yourself?  What you're describing sounds a bit like the reaction of a SHMUP forum to a pointandclick game - "why is there so much pointing and clicking, and puzzles and dialogue?  Get rid of that and have lots more shooting and blowing things up!".
 

Mandle

#2
The internet is a horrible place to try to create a story while you look at the feedback.

Just look at what it did to Star Wars.

I would suggest the old-school method of creating your vision in your own bubble of your creative world and not giving a fuck about what anyone else thinks about it except you.

And then, once it is finished, to your satisfaction, just release it and then read the feedback.

Disregard the obvious trolls who did not understand what you were trying to do, and pay attention to the people who picked up on the issues you were trying to address in the story but might have missed the mark slightly.

Whenever you tell a story it is YOUR story. Do NOT let it get hijacked by the fucking internet halfway through to become what THEY want or expect it to be.

That is the death of original storytelling.

Tell your story through your game. Maybe ask a few people whose opinion you truly trust about the mechanics and if they work properly in the game for them. Adjust appropriately as far as you see fit, without abandoning the vision of the game you first set out to make, and then just release it.

Learn from the inevitable backlash or possible acceptance of the game from the player community what you wish to, and apply it to your your next game, or don't.

Whenever you make a game the choice of what to do with it is always within you. As long as you can play it and enjoy what you have made is the MOST important thing.

You MUST make the game you wanted to or you will never have fun making another one again.


Cassiebsg

#3
That is neither good nor bad criticism. That is just someone telling you what he wants and expect you to do. The rest are what are known as trolls, they just want to annoy you, because that's all they're "good" at. My advice is ignore both, it's your art and your story. You are the only one who should know how to tell it.

Criticism is meant to help you improve in skills, to inspire and force you to not think that you master all. Criticism is mean to keep us going and do better, not shut us down.

If your aim is kids, then gore and foul language is not the way to go. That would just ensure any half decent parent to block you from your target audience.

As for that guy, well, tell him that if he wants to pay you for doing that kind of comic, then you might consider it (just make sure you're well paid  ;) ).

There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Laura Hunt

Quote from: Mandle on Fri 17/01/2020 15:54:22
Disregard the obvious trolls who did not understand what you were trying to do, and pay attention to the people who picked up on the issues you were trying to address in the story but might have missed the mark slightly.

Whenever you tell a story it is YOUR story. Do NOT let it get hijacked by the fucking internet halfway through to become what THEY want or expect it to be.

That is the death of original storytelling.

Tell your story through your game. Maybe ask a few people whose opinion you truly trust about the mechanics and if they work properly in the game for them. Adjust appropriately as far as you see fit, without abandoning the vision of the game you first set out to make, and then just release it.

All of this, and what CaptainD said. It's hard to find a balance between sticking to your vision and remembering that you're always going to have blind spots that others can help you see into, but it exists!


VampireWombat

I agree that it sounds like you asked in the wrong place given the results you got.
Creative and useful suggestions would be giving suggestions of things to watch/read that would be helpful in refining your vision, not telling you things to change it...

So, in that vein... You should read the Monster Allergy comics or watch the cartoon series if possible. It starts out following a couple of kids who trap monsters in special jars.

Retro Wolf

The people you asked for advice were not your audience, make the comic you want to make, it's your art.

Mandle

My apologies... I misread your starting post as a visual-graphic novel kind of game. Just translate every time I said "game" to "comic", and every time I said "play" to "read". Cheers!

Stupot

People who say you should always listen to criticism are either idiots who have never tried creating something or super talented artists who have only ever received mild suggestions and have never been told they sux.

Only listen to the criticism that applies to you. Then decide whether or not to take it on board. Say thanks for their opinion and then either implement their ideas or don't, depending only on whether you want to or not. It's still your comic. You'll soon be able to filter out the good suggestions from the bad ones quite quickly and easily.

Ali

There's one other thing that's tricky about criticism. I think Walter Murch discusses it in In The Blink Of An Eye:

Audiences are good at noticing when something is wrong, but bad at identifying the problem and even worse at suggesting solutions. The thing they tell you about is often not the problem - just the point where they noticed that there was a problem. "The comedy scene is bad." Is it? Or is it not working because it comes after the scene where the bomb is planted, and the audience is distracted?

As everyone else has said, the best solution is to seek feedback from people you respect - and who know what they're talking about. And when they say, "you should give her a gun"  you can ignore that. But maybe you should think about what prompted the suggestion. Maybe the character is (e.g.) not active enough in the story.

ManicMatt

#10
You can tell you wouldn't get that kinda feedback on the AGS forums, just from these fine folks and
their wisdom!

I imagine these people you asked think Doctor Who should carry a shotgun, sigh.

Laura Hunt

Quote from: Ali on Sat 18/01/2020 00:04:42
Audiences are good at noticing when something is wrong, but bad at identifying the problem and even worse at suggesting solutions. The thing they tell you about is often not the problem - just the point where they noticed that there was a problem."

This is some amazing insight! I should get the first sentence embroidered, frame it, and hang it on the wall above my laptop :)

Ali

Thank you for the feedback Laura. It was 100% my idea, nothing to do with Walter Murch. Walter who?!

KyriakosCH

Indeed, good advice from Ali.

That said, the story still needs a lot of gore, else it will ruin muh immersion  :=

And more seriously: like others said, you should create what expresses you. Different people would approach the general theme of girl-fights-monsters differently. If it is more about fun, maybe something like the rituals in anime like card-captor or similar?
I understand you don't want Blood C (though it was the funniest trainwreck I ever saw!!! And probably it became that because the script writer didn't know what it was supposed to be as a story, maybe due to feedback by others :D )
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Olleh19

#14
My advice is to not show anything to the internet, or your friends. Cause chances are they are jealous and say it sucks cause they can't do what you do.
Stick to your guts and do your stuff the way you want it!

WHAM

The art of creation is both a blessing and a curse. The notion from before is accurate, in that people will gladly tell you if they think you did something wrong.
As with all art, be it writing, drawing, game development, moviemaking, whatever: if you want to publish your work to an audience, you instantly open yourself up for critique and feedback whether you want it or not. If this is not something you are prepared for, then it will be best to limit your audience to people you know to be supportive, such as family and friends. However, doing so also restricts your growth, as these people will be too kind to be honest if there is something to improve.

My personal experience is to just take the hits and grow a thick enough of a skin to deal with any feedback or hurtful remarks, read them, understand them and distill them in your mind into something useful.

"You suck" or "This is bad" or "You're an idiot for making this" is not feedback, it's noise and can be safely ignored. (Though ignoring it can be easier said than done, hence the need for a thick skin when it comes to these things.)

Feedback is something that gives you detail, gives you suggestions, and once you receive this it is up to you to review this feedback and decide if you want to compromise your vision and cater to the audience, or soldier on with your own vision and accept that the feedback will not change.

My most valuable lesson when it comes to feedback came from my aunt: "People telling you that you did good doesn't help you grow. It just makes you feel warm and fuzzy, and makes you think you're already good enough and don't need to learn anything new anymore." It may feel like a harsh lesson, and especially so when it comes from strangers, but it has immense value!
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: The Night Falls, a community roleplaying game

Slasher

NEVER ask people you know for feedback (as per WHAM) ...Ask total strangers... Good or bad feedback use to your advantage and consideration but do it "Your way".....


The right audience will appreciate what you are doing...

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