Do we need a walk interaction?

[Creamy]

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Yesterday at 17:19

    In terms of character movement, I found keyboard controls give much more immersion and worked well in the "Cat Lady" for example, because having to keep hold keys to move character around gave more connection with her. I never tried playing adventure game with joystick or gamepad, so cannot tell about that.

I actually remember someone telling me that the only adventure game they liked, was Escape from Monkey Island, because it had those type of controls. The guy felt a disconnect from the character in most adventure games due to having to point and click to move, and as such preferred even the tank controls over it.
While I don't share his opinions, I did find it quite interesting. Perhaps direct control of the character could be the future for adventure games?

Personally I didn't enjoy the controls in Monkey Island 4 or Broken Sword 3. I found them cumbersome and more suited to action games.

An interesting alternative is to have an onscreen character that you can't move, like in The adventures of Valdo and Marie or more recently An eternity reflecting. When done right, being immobile doesn't bother me that much and it allows for more varied camera angles.

[Danvzare]

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Yesterday at 17:19

    In terms of character movement, I found keyboard controls give much more immersion and worked well in the "Cat Lady" for example, because having to keep hold keys to move character around gave more connection with her. I never tried playing adventure game with joystick or gamepad, so cannot tell about that.

I actually remember someone telling me that the only adventure game they liked, was Escape from Monkey Island, because it had those type of controls. The guy felt a disconnect from the character in most adventure games due to having to point and click to move, and as such preferred even the tank controls over it.
While I don't share his opinions, I did find it quite interesting. Perhaps direct control of the character could be the future for adventure games?

Personally I didn't enjoy the controls in Monkey Island 4 or Broken Sword 3. I found them cumbersome and more suited to action games.

An interesting alternative is to have an onscreen character that you can't move, like in The adventures of Valdo and Marie or more recently An eternity reflecting. When done right, being immobile doesn't bother me that much and it allows for more varied camera angles.

Agreed, I'm not too fond the controls in those games either. But the fact that some people do, is at least worth thinking about.

As for games with a static onscreen character... yeah, I can't stand those.
The adventure game controls I like the most to the ones I hate the most:
1. Point and click to move
2. Direct control
3. Text parser
4. Tank controls
5. First person adventure games
6. That weird thing Monkey Island 5 did
7. Static onscreen character

[Laura Hunt]

Just out of curiosity, what do y'all first-person-adventure-game haters here think about the Rusty Lake and Deep Sleep series?

[Cassiebsg]

Don't know then, so don't think anything about them?  Hate is a strong word, I don't hate them I just prefer 3rd person. 

[Laura Hunt]

Don't know then, so don't think anything about them?  Hate is a strong word, I don't hate them I just prefer 3rd person. 

Haha yeah, but since Danvzare said "The adventure game controls I like the most to the ones I hate the most" I went with "haters" too

The Rusty Lake / Cube Escape games are awesome! But then again, I'm an absolute Twin Peaks fangirl and so are these guys, so I was sold from the start  Still, I think they have a pretty unique vibe/aesthetic and most of them are free, so I'd encourage everybody to check them out, especially Seasons, Theatre and Birthday!

[Babar]

Being nitpicky, but:
scrolling rooms don't really need walking player characters, there are other ways (e.g. moving mouse to edge of screen)
almost every adventure game maze I've seen (the stuff near the end of Fate of Atlantis wasn't really a maze to solve) involved the entire screen being a room/step in the maze, not the entire maze on the screen
some position based puzzles could do with being better designed ("you're not close enough to push the button" is useless in the non-text parser age)
But yeah, I agree, some games do incorporate position-based puzzles. I'd still maintain they're rarer than games that don't.

(My biggest "this crap is overused and overrated and it should disappear forever" pet peeve is in fact the 2-button "left-look/right-interact" interface, but let's not open that can of worms here )

I want
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(personally I hate the verbcoin way more)
And I haven't heard of any of those games, sorry! I can't actually think of a "traditional" (puzzles, combining stuff, talking to people, inventory items, etc.) adventure game in first person, but there are lots of first person games with heavy adventure elements.

And Danvzare, yes, I listed immersion as one of the few cons including a walking interaction had. That's my question in this thread- is it worth it? I mean, if we're talking immersion, as already mentioned, a good (non-tanky) direct control system is even more immersive.
PS: I don't know what Monkey Island 5 is, but if you meant Tales of Monkey Island, yeah, the  first episode was designed with the Wii in mind or something, so it had very weird controls.

[Laura Hunt]

I want
you
to,
please contribute 
(personally I hate the verbcoin way more)

lmao I'll be sure to jump on any such future discussions

And I haven't heard of any of those games, sorry! I can't actually think of a "traditional" (puzzles, combining stuff, talking to people, inventory items, etc.) adventure game in first person, but there are lots of first person games with heavy adventure elements.

Then let me insist because I think you'll find the Cube Escape games to be a very pleasant surprise in that regard! They're all about inventory, puzzles, finding keys to locks that open other locks that require you to decipher a numeric key to open a safe that will give you a fish that when combined with a bottle will give you another puzzle that will give you a piece of a photo you need in order to trigger a memory that will help you travel to the past where you can plant a seed that will turn into a tree when you go back to the future that will open a cupboard door that was previously closed and... you get the drill. They're 100% classic point-and-clicks, but without the movement (and admittedly, without the "talking to people" part). I think you might enjoy them!

[Crimson Wizard]

PS. In Cat Lady the character only moves horizontally, so the keyboard controls were basically just left & right + action button.

PPS. What is "tank controls"?

[Laura Hunt]

PPS. What is "tank controls"?

Instead of moving left, right, up, down, your character rotates in place with left and right and walks in the direction you're facing with "up/forward". It's clunky af.

[ManicMatt]

For examples of tank controls in action, see the original Resident Evil trilogy or the original Grim Fandango release (although the remastered version gives you option to switch to the classic tank controls).

[Danvzare]

Just out of curiosity, what do y'all first-person-adventure-game haters here think about the Rusty Lake and Deep Sleep series?

I've never played Rusty Lake, but I thought Deep Sleep was pretty great.

I don't know what Monkey Island 5 is, but if you meant Tales of Monkey Island, yeah, the  first episode was designed with the Wii in mind or something, so it had very weird controls.

Yes, I meant Tales of Monkey Island. It's the fifth game isn't it? Therefore it's Monkey Island 5. If I say Monkey Island 3, you know I'm talking about Curse of Monkey Island, right?
Also, I don't care what their excuse is, the Wii has nothing to do with that click-and-drag control scheme. There's a perfectly usable nunchuk with an analog stick on the Wii.

(My biggest "this crap is overused and overrated and it should disappear forever" pet peeve is in fact the 2-button "left-look/right-interact" interface, but let's not open that can of worms here )

I want
you
to,
please contribute 
(personally I hate the verbcoin way more)
And I haven't heard of any of those games, sorry! I can't actually think of a "traditional" (puzzles, combining stuff, talking to people, inventory items, etc.) adventure game in first person, but there are lots of first person games with heavy adventure elements.

The problem is, what's the alternative?
The single click interface is bad because it simplifies interactions too much, allowing brute-force-click-on-everything gameplay.
The two click interface is bad because no one ever presses the right mouse button, therefore being exactly like the single click interface, but without the character giving context to anything.
Half of adventure game creators (like you) hate the verbcoin for seemingly no good reason. (And I've heard the arguments, none of them are compelling.)
No one ever talks about the Sierra interface (and personally, I don't like it).
The 9-verb interface has been declared "old" and "outdated".
No one in their right mind would use a text parser.
Apparently direct control is considered too "action adventure".
And no one seems willing to come up with an entirely new and original way of playing adventure games.

Everyone is always willing to complain about the interfaces that are available, but no one is willing to improve them or make their own.

[Crimson Wizard]

And no one seems willing to come up with an entirely new and original way of playing adventure games.

VR + gloves.

[Laura Hunt]

The problem is, what's the alternative?
The single click interface is bad because it simplifies interactions too much, allowing brute-force-click-on-everything gameplay.

What? No? You still need to solve puzzles, you still need to use the right inventory item on the right spot or combine items, you can have numerical puzzles, positional puzzles, figure-matching puzzles, find-a-word-to-open-a-safe puzzles (the Rusty Lake games I mentioned earlier are basically one puzzle after another, and they use just one click). The only gameplay that gets thrown out of the window with the 1-click interface is the kind that depends on you specifically choosing to push this item rather than interacting with it, and I personally hate those. It's basically having to guess what verb the game creator thought of.

Everyone is always willing to complain about the interfaces that are available, but no one is willing to improve them or make their own.

Because there's nothing to improve: the 1-click interface is already perfect

[Babar]

Yes, I meant Tales of Monkey Island. It's the fifth game isn't it? Therefore it's Monkey Island 5. If I say Monkey Island 3, you know I'm talking about Curse of Monkey Island, right?
Also, I don't care what their excuse is, the Wii has nothing to do with that click-and-drag control scheme. There's a perfectly usable nunchuk with an analog stick on the Wii.

It's the 5th game, but it isn't "Monkey Island 5", the same way Telltale's Sam & Max games aren't "Sam and Max 2" (and 3 and 4...), or Telltale's Borderlands game isn't called Borderlands 3. And I'm not sure what you mean that the Wii had nothing to do with it. Obviously the control scheme wasn't the same on the Wii, the drag system was TellTales' conversion of the system from the Wii to the PC.

The problem is, what's the alternative?
The single click interface is bad because it simplifies interactions too much, allowing brute-force-click-on-everything gameplay.
The two click interface is bad because no one ever presses the right mouse button, therefore being exactly like the single click interface, but without the character giving context to anything.
Half of adventure game creators (like you) hate the verbcoin for seemingly no good reason. (And I've heard the arguments, none of them are compelling.)
No one ever talks about the Sierra interface (and personally, I don't like it).
The 9-verb interface has been declared "old" and "outdated".
No one in their right mind would use a text parser.
Apparently direct control is considered too "action adventure".
And no one seems willing to come up with an entirely new and original way of playing adventure games.

Everyone is always willing to complain about the interfaces that are available, but no one is willing to improve them or make their own.

You've listed problems with each interaction system, but that doesn't mean there aren't situations where each of them are appropriate- except the verbcoin, of course, that is just universally (and AGS-Forumly) proven by science to universally suck  .
There are use-cases (even today) of each of those interaction systems (including the text parser too).

[Cassiebsg]

Actually I hate the 1-click, and it's not a strong word in this case. 
I always end up right clicking everything anyway and be disappointed that it just results in the same action as the left click. I use the 2-click by choice, and cause it's convenient for MAGS, but I like the VerbCoin (not in it's original incarnation though, but I like to be able to get verb specific for each spot with the right click).

I guess we're all different in one way or another. The Sierra interface is annoying because you need to select the walk action, and then I always fast right past the verb I want and have to start the cycle again (or use the above menu... plus one needs to grad the inventory from a second GUI. Rather either open the Inventory GUI with one button/key or have it always visible.

[Crimson Wizard]

I know that AGD Interactive allows players to choose interface style in their game (for example, "Mage Initiation").

I guess the form of verb presentation may be implemented in various ways, and also depending on what system you are, and what input device you use.

The real question is, which verbs to use in your game, and why.

[cat]

1-click is fine for pure escape the room games (I've used it for exactly that) and visual novels (or maybe a combination of both) but for adventure games it is too dumbed down for me and lacks interactivity.

I want more interaction with the surrounding, be it inspecting objects with right click or walking somewhere. And I love position based puzzles.

[Danvzare]

You've listed problems with each interaction system, but that doesn't mean there aren't situations where each of them are appropriate

I think you've perfectly summarized everything there.
Barring our preferences (I hate the Seirra interface and you hate the Verb coin, we don't need to justify why, we just hate them), you need to choose the best interaction system for the game you want to make, and utilize it to it's fullest. While keeping in mind it's weaknesses and how to overcome them.

Also, unrelated rant.

Spoiler

Yes, I meant Tales of Monkey Island. It's the fifth game isn't it? Therefore it's Monkey Island 5. If I say Monkey Island 3, you know I'm talking about Curse of Monkey Island, right?
Also, I don't care what their excuse is, the Wii has nothing to do with that click-and-drag control scheme. There's a perfectly usable nunchuk with an analog stick on the Wii.

It's the 5th game, but it isn't "Monkey Island 5", the same way Telltale's Sam & Max games aren't "Sam and Max 2" (and 3 and 4...), or Telltale's Borderlands game isn't called Borderlands 3. And I'm not sure what you mean that the Wii had nothing to do with it. Obviously the control scheme wasn't the same on the Wii, the drag system was TellTales' conversion of the system from the Wii to the PC.

Look, if Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories was the last Kingdom Hearts game to ever be made, and the whole franchise had been cancelled after that. I would call it Kingdom Hearts 2, simply because the story continues from where the previous game left off, and the gameplay isn't too dissimilar. Telltale's Borderlands has completely different gameplay to the rest of the series, so it's clearly distinguished as a spinoff. The Telltale Sam and Max games make no reference to the other Sam and Max game, distinguishing it as more of a reboot than a sequel. Meanwhile, Tales of Monkey Island has gameplay that's exactly like the previous games and also makes it clear that it's a sequel to those games. The only reason I can think of why you wouldn't call it Monkey Island 5, is because the developers said so. But I'm a firm believer of "the death of the author" so screw what they say. Show me an actual Monkey Island 5 (one which is actually named that, or completely ignores everything that happens in Tales of), and I'll stop calling Tales of Monkey Island that.

Also if the control scheme on the Wii wasn't the same, and the drag system was from the conversion, then that literally proves my point that the Wii had nothing to do with the click-and-drag system. Since they could've very easily just put in a normal point and click during the conversion.
I was under the assumption that both versions had the same system, and that you were arguing that they were too lazy to change it. In which case, I was trying to point out that there was no reason to have a click-and-drag system for the Wii. But you've just said that the Wii didn't have the click-and-drag system, meaning they weren't too lazy to change it, as they actually did change it. Which means, they came up with that click-and-drag system because... I don't know... they wanted to try something new and stupid I guess.
In either case, you can't blame the Wii for that click-and-drag system.

[close]

[dactylopus]

(My biggest "this crap is overused and overrated and it should disappear forever" pet peeve is in fact the 2-button "left-look/right-interact" interface, but let's not open that can of worms here )

I want
you
to,
please contribute 
(personally I hate the verbcoin way more)
And I haven't heard of any of those games, sorry! I can't actually think of a "traditional" (puzzles, combining stuff, talking to people, inventory items, etc.) adventure game in first person, but there are lots of first person games with heavy adventure elements.

The problem is, what's the alternative?
The single click interface is bad because it simplifies interactions too much, allowing brute-force-click-on-everything gameplay.
The two click interface is bad because no one ever presses the right mouse button, therefore being exactly like the single click interface, but without the character giving context to anything.
Half of adventure game creators (like you) hate the verbcoin for seemingly no good reason. (And I've heard the arguments, none of them are compelling.)
No one ever talks about the Sierra interface (and personally, I don't like it).
The 9-verb interface has been declared "old" and "outdated".
No one in their right mind would use a text parser.
Apparently direct control is considered too "action adventure".
And no one seems willing to come up with an entirely new and original way of playing adventure games.

Everyone is always willing to complain about the interfaces that are available, but no one is willing to improve them or make their own.

I personally prefer the action adventure direct control method, but only with controller support.  It's just more intuitive for me, and I would really like to make games using this control method.

Aside from that, I prefer either a one-button or two-button method.  I understand that one-button can be limiting, but if the puzzles don't rely on multiple different verb interactions I think it can work well.  Also, the over-simplification argument can be overturned when there are inventory, dialogue, or positional puzzles, or other puzzles that take you into a separate UI.  Most of all, one-button is user friendly and can be ported easily to other devices.  The two-button method is a good alternative if there are no plans to port to other devices, or if there is an easy way to port (like using a tap and double-tap method), but the extra flavor of the right-click look interaction can be provided in other ways and is rarely used by a lot of players.

I can see how a limited verb-coin interface could be more suitable for a particular game that wants to allow for more interaction choices, as long as it is implemented well (no click-hold, doesn't cover the object).

I've always had a soft spot for the Sierra interface.  I know a lot of people dislike it, so I won't be using it, but I grew up with this and the text parser so I will always love them for that.

I never liked the LucasArts 9-verb interface.

All interfaces can have the issue of new players not understanding how to play, but all can be overcome with a simple tutorial that shows the player how to interact with the world around them.

To answer the thread's title question of "Do we need a walk interaction?" I would say you aren't asking the right question.  You should be asking "what interactions are necessary for our game, and what interface makes for the most ergonomic and enjoyable experience for the player?"

If we're talking about whether to allow walking at all (and not just the interaction option), then I think Snarky sums it up best with this:

It's also good for scrolling rooms (which can reveal new things as you walk around in the space), and as a way to trigger events naturally in the course of gameplay. Apart from the player identification and sense of interactivity, I'd say those are the biggest reasons.

There are also a bunch of puzzle types that, although they're not exactly position-based, wouldn't really work without the ability to walk around. For example many mazes, and following-puzzles. Or the "walk around the table three times to complete the magic ritual" puzzle suggested here. And while pure position-based puzzles are maybe not that common, I think there are quite a few that incorporate a position-based element, whether that's the "get the dog leash to wrap around the lightpole" in Blackwell Legacy or "hiding" puzzles in many games.

I'm sure you could make a game without it, but I think it has quite a bit of value.

Add to this Danvzare's comments on immersion, and I think there is a strong case to be made for allowing the player to manipulate the character's position on screen.

Cassiebsg also makes a case against first-person that I agree with:

No, "first person movement" does not solve this. I like playing my games just like I enjoy watching my favorite TV show. I doubt I would connect to a character I can't see in a tv show, just like I don't connect in a game. Keep in mind that I do like Myst, but more cause the scenery is so beautiful and the puzzles are great, and I played my fair share of first person adventures. But in general, I enjoy being that character that is walking in the screen, and don't want to be "me". Watching the character walking around and being able to control it gives me what I want in that department.

I loved Myst (and Riven), but would still have preferred to have a controllable character on the screen.

[Babar]

For immersion, I too prefer direct control if it is in 3D, with keyboard and mouse, though: I think intuitiveness of a controller depends on what you're used to, and I much prefer KBM.

As I said before, it may be a bit nitpicky, but most of the examples of puzzles given as reasons to have walking be a separate interaction are very easily (without any extra complexity in terms of development or playability) be implemented without walking. There definitely ARE some position based puzzles that WOULD require walking, but the vast majority of adventure games (especially those made with AGS) don't have such puzzles. If your game did, then of course, you'd have a walk interaction, but if  you didn't, then my question follows: is it still meaningful to have a walk interaction?

I wasn't expecting this turning into an interface system discussion, as the question would apply equally and irrespective of all the interaction methods, but as I said, the the implementation of the interface depends on its usage and situation- One and two button interfaces seem universally understandable, if you need more, then it seems we get diversity of opinion (LucasArts permenantly visible verblists, Sierra pop-down Verblists, Verbcoins, etc.)- I've had a bit of a hate-hate relationship with verbcoin, even though I'd like to think I gave it a fair shake- I even tried designing my own here a while back with the help of the community to get the best practices down, but that failed dismally, because each choice lead to two possible (both bad) results:
- Can't have the verbcoin be covering the clicked spot, so make it hollow- Need to have each interaction equidistant to the click point with predictable and expected button positions, so made it radial, making it radial means you can't reach corners. If you want to reach corners, then you have to offset the radial menu, which eliminates its usefulness.
- Aimed for a single button interface for simplicity and portability- walking if there's nothing to interact with, and opening interface if something interactable. That caused problems with opening inventory when you wanted to interact with it irrespective of something on the screen. could be bypassed by having inventory as a pop-down menu, but then that messed things up for being in the corner of the screen, and since inventory usually has a different interaction system, it becomes inconsistent.
- Closing the interface was also a problem- for desktops I eventually had to allow right-click to close (even though it was a single button interface), because the other options- moving the mouse out of range or clicking an X made it worse

So I'm only being a LITTLE facetious when I say it is the worst interface ever