Author Topic: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works  (Read 2190 times)

KyriakosCH

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HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« on: 25 Jul 2020, 20:29 »
The trailer:



Got to say, this doesn't have a Lovecraft vibe at all. I was also surprised by the idea to have black protagonists in the work of a notorious anti-black racist like Lovecraft ^_^

Most likely it will be generic and only tie to HPL in name.


edit: and apparently this is based on some 2016 novel some nameless guy wrote, where Lovecraft's work is juxtaposed to the Jim Crow era. So... Lovecraft's name is just used to sell this, but imo this is a terrible idea :)

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« Last Edit: 25 Jul 2020, 20:51 by KyriakosCH »
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #1 on: 25 Jul 2020, 22:02 »
I believe that once a work becomes so huge it can outgrow the artist's original vision.

Some people may not like this but, the original stories are still there for those people.

As for Lovecraft's name being attached to it, he never really officially named his mythos, so we only have the "Lovecraft mythos" as a name to describe it.

(Some people say the "Cthulhu Mythos" but this is kind of silly because Cthulhu is quite a minor part of the whole thing.)

It's not like "Sherlock Holmes" where we don't have to invoke the writer's name to let people know what it's about.

Maybe Lovecraft himself wouldn't be too happy with the way things have gone with his creations becoming "pop culture" (even though that's what they really were even in his time).

I'm sure movies like Reanimator would offend him deeply, although he may enjoy In The Mouth Of Madness, but it doesn't really matter because he now resides on Yuggoth and he ain't coming back.
« Last Edit: 25 Jul 2020, 22:05 by Mandle »

KyriakosCH

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #2 on: 25 Jul 2020, 22:10 »
I think that falsely advertising this will be a problem, though, in that virtually no one would have heard of the novel "Lovecraft country", while almost all who come to see the trailer (and series?) would come for Lovecraft, expecting something entirely different :)

Also I don't think it is a good idea to place US racism in tautology with the work of a writer - I am sure most racists were less creative than Lovecraft.
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #3 on: 25 Jul 2020, 23:04 »
I would imagine that one of the main reasons for the existence of this show is the well-known racism of Lovecraft (or rather xenophobia, remember he pretty much feared anyone or anything he had no personal experience with or understanding of.)

I don't know if it's a strike-back against his views, or an attempt to bring "Lovecraftian" cosmic horror to a wider audience who have been turned off up until this point by his views, but it seems deliberate.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #4 on: 26 Jul 2020, 16:36 »
There's also a certain "minority" quota that they need to fill.
You can't make anything in Hollywood that does not include at least 1 actor that fills the minority quota. Only reason I can see for Nick Fury all of a sudden becoming "African American" in 2008, when he has been white since his creation in 1963...  (roll)
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KyriakosCH

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #5 on: 26 Jul 2020, 16:59 »
I would imagine that one of the main reasons for the existence of this show is the well-known racism of Lovecraft (or rather xenophobia, remember he pretty much feared anyone or anything he had no personal experience with or understanding of.)

I don't know if it's a strike-back against his views, or an attempt to bring "Lovecraftian" cosmic horror to a wider audience who have been turned off up until this point by his views, but it seems deliberate.

Maybe... Although it is still false advertising, which will certainly backfire! I wouldn't like it if, for example, some show was called "Kafka's world", and it ended up being some lame fan-fiction about how someone read Kafka and tried to get through the soviet occupation of Czechoslovakia  :=

There's also a certain "minority" quota that they need to fill.
You can't make anything in Hollywood that does not include at least 1 actor that fills the minority quota. Only reason I can see for Nick Fury all of a sudden becoming "African American" in 2008, when he has been white since his creation in 1963...  (roll)

This isn't about quotas, though, it has most of the cast be black, because it is an adaptation of a 2016 book titled "Lovecraft country". Also, it is by Peele, who makes it a point to have most of his casts be black when possible.
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #6 on: 26 Jul 2020, 18:45 »
There's also a certain "minority" quota that they need to fill.
You can't make anything in Hollywood that does not include at least 1 actor that fills the minority quota. Only reason I can see for Nick Fury all of a sudden becoming "African American" in 2008, when he has been white since his creation in 1963...  (roll)

This is not true. Nick Fury is/was black in Marvel's alternate "Ultimate Universe" (initially appearing in a 2001 story by Brian Bendis and Mike Allred). In fact, in The Ultimates (2002) by Mark Millar and Brian Hitch, which is the main basis for the MCU Avengers, his appearance is explicitly based on Samuel L. Jackson. (The Ultimate Universe has later been merged into the main Marvel comics continuity.)

As for Lovecraft Country, it's not a book that "virtually no one" has heard of. It was widely (and fairly positively) reviewed on release. And of course the choice to use Lovecraft as a central reference in a horror story about racism is deliberate, precisely because he was so famously a racist.

KyriakosCH

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #7 on: 26 Jul 2020, 19:03 »
I think it's safe to say that, in context, virtually no one has heard of it, that is when juxtaposed to how many would try to learn about the series due to the actual Lovecraft.
Furthermore, I think it is a very bad idea to try simultaneously to leech Lovecraft for his name, and make the focus be his racism. The first would just be false advertising, but now it can be seen as a problematic cheapening of any merit Lovecraft's work may have.
And if one tried to combat current racism, to tie racism to a creative and famous person is not the best of avenues for this either.
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #8 on: 26 Jul 2020, 21:11 »
OT: Oh, I stopped reading Marvel comics around the 2000 year (I was only reading Spider-man and Wolverine by this time and a few years forward) and I avoided the alternate universe like the plague...  (roll)
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #9 on: 27 Jul 2020, 09:46 »
So have you got a source for this 'one ethnic minority performer' quota, apart from a misunderstanding about one bit of casting?

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #10 on: 27 Jul 2020, 16:11 »
Here's an article talking about it: https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2015/mar/25/deadlines-race-casting-article-tvs-diversity-wrong

And here's a simple google search about the problem (the above link is/was the top link): https://www.google.com/search?q=hollywood+casting+quota

I have nothing against colored or minorities being included, but when they're just there to meet "the quota" and are "shoed in", it gets annoying.  :-\
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #11 on: 27 Jul 2020, 16:15 »
That Guardian article is debunking claims from a Deadspin article about a quota. There is no such quota.

KyriakosCH

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #12 on: 27 Jul 2020, 21:50 »
This wouldn't be about quota anyway, even if possible, given that the 2016 book is centered on black people :)

But it will oldonenate ( :=) Lovecraft fans, so who exactly is the show supposed to be targeting as an audience? Not very intelligent to piss off the group you are inevitably marketing this to.
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #13 on: 28 Jul 2020, 02:51 »
The book is explicitly about the relationship with an author who, well, was a god awful human being despite writing some decent books. It's only alienating to fans if your head is so far in the sand you refuse to acknowledge he was kind of a shady guy who occasionally wrote short short stories about how terrible *ahem* 'nice men of african descent' are, while imbuing multiple elements of his story with those same undertones (I don't believe for a half second that the imbred violent weird-featured residents of Innsmouth weren't intended as a stand in for his mental image of a majority black town). You cannot always just ignore who the author was as a person, doubly so when it affects their work. Ain't no sane person gonna argue that it's fine to be a fan of Mein Kampf because you just love that Adolf guy's writing and why is everyone bringing up his personal views? No, for better or worse, there's a judgement call that needs to be made. In part the novel is about that. As well as parallelling elements of cosmic 'hostile universe' horror with racism as well as more plot specifics like getting run out of towns for looking different than the residents.

KyriakosCH

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #14 on: 28 Jul 2020, 03:23 »
The book is explicitly about the relationship with an author who, well, was a god awful human being despite writing some decent books. It's only alienating to fans if your head is so far in the sand you refuse to acknowledge he was kind of a shady guy who occasionally wrote short short stories about how terrible *ahem* 'nice men of african descent' are, while imbuing multiple elements of his story with those same undertones (I don't believe for a half second that the imbred violent weird-featured residents of Innsmouth weren't intended as a stand in for his mental image of a majority black town). You cannot always just ignore who the author was as a person, doubly so when it affects their work. Ain't no sane person gonna argue that it's fine to be a fan of Mein Kampf because you just love that Adolf guy's writing and why is everyone bringing up his personal views? No, for better or worse, there's a judgement call that needs to be made. In part the novel is about that. As well as parallelling elements of cosmic 'hostile universe' horror with racism as well as more plot specifics like getting run out of towns for looking different than the residents.

Hey, I never claimed Lovecraft wasn't a racist - that much is rather obvious. The point is that, surely, he isn't read due to being a racist. So I am not sure how one can sell a series on Lovecraft on that element.

Btw, the Innsmouth folk are corruptions of white people, while in the story the original sufferers were melanesian. Plenty of not that positive epithets used for melanesians in the story. The protagonist becomes a monster too in the end.

I'd say I only like a few of his stories. The Outsider, Rats in the Walls, the first half of Call of Cthulhu and bits and pieces from others.
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2020, 03:31 by KyriakosCH »
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #15 on: 28 Jul 2020, 08:45 »
Thanks Galen for injecting some fact into the discussion.

Hey, I never claimed Lovecraft wasn't a racist - that much is rather obvious. The point is that, surely, he isn't read due to being a racist. So I am not sure how one can sell a series on Lovecraft on that element.

Your evident concern for the HBO marketing department is touching. (roll)
But if he's not read due to being racist, we're back to the question of why Lovecraft fans would be offended ("pissed off" as you say) by the series raising it as an issue.

You keep circling around it being some kind of problem that the series uses Lovecraft's name in the title. But it's clearly a story that is in dialogue with the themes of H.P. Lovecraft's writings—both as inspiration and to push back against them—so invoking his name seems perfectly apt. And famous writers do become part of pop culture, and are routinely referenced, name-checked and even recruited as characters in later fiction. (See also: Jane Austen, Mary Shelley, Lewis Carroll, Oscar Wilde, Virginia Woolf and Hunter S. Thompson, just to name a few examples. And you haven't really made it as a mystery writer until someone writes a a story with you as the detective.) Only yesterday, I came across the horror novel The Broken Hours: A Novel of H.P. Lovecraft.

In any case, Lovecraft Country will almost certainly be more Lovecraftian than Grimm was reminiscent of the tales of the Brothers Grimm.

KyriakosCH

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #16 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:04 »
Snarky,the series is adapted from non-Lovecraft fiction, set in the Jim Crow era US. I think one would need to be pretty thick to not be capable of guessing why Lovecraft fans will find this insulting and/or a gimmick.
Hint: racism isn't about what makes Lovecraft worth one's time, nor is false advertising an improvement.
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #17 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:17 »
Snarky,the series is adapted from non-Lovecraft fiction, set in the Jim Crow era US. I think one would need to be pretty thick to not be capable of guessing why Lovecraft fans will find this insulting and/or a gimmick.
Hint: racism isn't about what makes Lovecraft worth one's time, nor is false advertising an improvement.

lol please. Most Lovecraft fans nowadays have come into contact with his works not through his books but via role playing games, video games or awesome metal bands and are used to all kinds of "bastardizations" of his material, from musicals to Chtulhu plushies, but yeah, sure this is the one thing that's going to get trve fanbois indignantly grabbing their quills to write angry letters to HBO.

Stop pretending that you're concerned about these hypothetical "offended fans" strawmen when what's happening here is that you have an obvious case of Kids These Days.

KyriakosCH

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #18 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:21 »
Ok, though I am hardly the reaction nor the target audience of the series. So even if my view was turned for 180 degrees, reality of how this looks to the audience it tried to lure doesn't look good.
Next time, if a producer doesn't want to attract fans of x, maybe consider not putting x in the title of the show :P

As for me, I'd feel let down if the show was called Kafka's world (like I said), and then revealed to be fan fiction about some random reader of Kafka in cold war era Czechoslovakia. Just cause I like reading Kafka doesn't mean at all I'd want to see that piece of onanism.
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2020, 09:23 by KyriakosCH »
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #19 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:23 »
I take it you're very much a purist, Kyriakos; a work by an author should be adapted as true to the original as possible? That's the point you're trying to make, isn't it?

But what is your point specifically with Lovecraft? He was racist, so fans of his work would want a racist adaptation? I'm honestly not sure that's what you mean, but that's certainly how it comes across right now. How else am I supposed to understand your opinion that such an adaptation would be insulting to fans?

On a side note, I wonder how much Lovecraft is actually read nowadays, and therefore how many purist fans might actually exist. I, personally, never read any of his works, but I certainly can't say that what's true for me is what's true for everybody. But I do get the impression, that Lovecraft is more known through pop culture osmosis than people who actually read his work and are intimately familiar with it.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #20 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:26 »
I take it you're very much a purist, Kyriakos; a work by an author should be adapted as true to the original as possible? That's the point you're trying to make, isn't it?

But what is your point specifically with Lovecraft? He was racist, so fans of his work would want a racist adaptation? I'm honestly not sure that's what you mean, but that's certainly how it comes across right now. How else am I supposed to understand your opinion that such an adaptation would be insulting to fans?



Isn't it rather logical that fans of Lovecraft would expect a show adapted from Lovecraft's actual works?  8-0

Racism was a clear fault of Lovecraft, not something his audience wants to see. If all Lovecraft was had been a racist, no one would know of him today. Fans clearly expected something tied to cosmic horror and other lovecraftian ideas, not a show about racism.
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2020, 09:27 by KyriakosCH »
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #21 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:43 »
Isn't it rather logical that fans of Lovecraft would expect a show adapted from Lovecraft's actual works?  8-0

Racism was a clear fault of Lovecraft, not something his audience wants to see. If all Lovecraft was had been a racist, no one would know of him today. Fans clearly expected something tied to cosmic horror and other lovecraftian ideas, not a show about racism.

One person I was making video games with in the past used to say "fuck the fans". I always remember this line whenever someone talks about "fans expecting" something. Apparently, it's the fans' job - to expect and be ready to be dissapointed :D.

Who are these "fans"? I loved Lovecraftian stories, and I am not insulted by this show, but rather intrigued. So we are talking about some "die hard" purist fans that cannot stand a single deviation, or single mentioning of his name in vain?

Someone made a work inspired by Lovecraft's themes, and combined them with the themes of his own. Why is that bad? If it's bad only because "fans expect different thing", then I would not bother.
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2020, 09:48 by Crimson Wizard »

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #22 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:53 »
Quote
Isn't it rather logical that fans of Lovecraft would expect a show adapted from Lovecraft's actual works?

That's not my point. There are varing degrees of being true to the original. How much of one work do you need in an adaptation for it to still be one? Has it to be word for word? or the general plot points of the story? Or the themes? or the characters?

You only seem to consider something a proper adaptation if it is one of the purest, clearest type. But such an adaptation, for a known racist, with a work that has (according to other people in this thread - I admit freely, again, that I have not read Lovecraft) racist themes and plots would in itself necessarily be racist.

But an adaptation of a story or more general themes does not need to be.

In other words: How much is it possible to filter racist elements from Lovecraft's work and still having it be Lovecraft's work?


On the other hand, I do understand the sentiment that something that has the name of an author or a story should try to be close to the original, otherwise, it becomes an adaptation in name only - I'm not a fan of these. But the TV show is based on a novel by the same name, so I would only mind - from the adaptation purist point-of-view - if the show had nothing to do with the novel, which was also called Lovecraft Country. The trailer doesn't pretend to be an adaptation of Lovecraft's work. It's an adaptation of the novel with the same name. You can take issue with the fact that the novel has Lovecraft in its name, but from the little information wikipedia gives, the name makes sense.

And that you and some fans might like an adaptation of Lovecraft's work is a different thing. It's not what the novel was, it's not what the TV show will be and it's not what the trailer implies.

Actually, I'm probably more interested in this show than I would be in a pure adaptation of Lovecraft's work, as I'm sure some other people are. And some people might feel like you and not be interested because it hasn't enough elements of Lovecraft. That's fine. Not all books or shows are for everyone, but calling it <insulting to fans> goes most likely several steps too far.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #23 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:58 »
Isn't it rather logical that fans of Lovecraft would expect a show adapted from Lovecraft's actual works?  8-0

No, it's not. And the tiny contingent of Lovecraft "purists" who might be offended by this (a minuscule subset of the people who are "Lovecraft fans" or might be intrigued by the title) are not the audience.

Fans clearly expected something tied to cosmic horror and other lovecraftian ideas, not a show about racism.

Quit hiding behind "fans" when you obviously mean yourself.

As has already been pointed out, the story does deal with Lovecraftian ideas. And I would argue that Lovecraft's frequent motifs of evil cults and ancestral sin and corruption lend themselves well to being repurposed as allegories for racism.

BTW, I take it you are deeply offended by Murakami's Kafka on the Shore.
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2020, 10:05 by Snarky »

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #24 on: 28 Jul 2020, 10:49 »
Quote
Isn't it rather logical that fans of Lovecraft would expect a show adapted from Lovecraft's actual works?

That's not my point. There are varing degrees of being true to the original. How much of one work do you need in an adaptation for it to still be one? Has it to be word for word? or the general plot points of the story? Or the themes? or the characters?

You only seem to consider something a proper adaptation if it is one of the purest, clearest type. But such an adaptation, for a known racist, with a work that has (according to other people in this thread - I admit freely, again, that I have not read Lovecraft) racist themes and plots would in itself necessarily be racist.

But an adaptation of a story or more general themes does not need to be.

In other words: How much is it possible to filter racist elements from Lovecraft's work and still having it be Lovecraft's work?


On the other hand, I do understand the sentiment that something that has the name of an author or a story should try to be close to the original, otherwise, it becomes an adaptation in name only - I'm not a fan of these. But the TV show is based on a novel by the same name, so I would only mind - from the adaptation purist point-of-view - if the show had nothing to do with the novel, which was also called Lovecraft Country. The trailer doesn't pretend to be an adaptation of Lovecraft's work. It's an adaptation of the novel with the same name. You can take issue with the fact that the novel has Lovecraft in its name, but from the little information wikipedia gives, the name makes sense.

And that you and some fans might like an adaptation of Lovecraft's work is a different thing. It's not what the novel was, it's not what the TV show will be and it's not what the trailer implies.

Actually, I'm probably more interested in this show than I would be in a pure adaptation of Lovecraft's work, as I'm sure some other people are. And some people might feel like you and not be interested because it hasn't enough elements of Lovecraft. That's fine. Not all books or shows are for everyone, but calling it <insulting to fans> goes most likely several steps too far.

Let's hope you are right, although going by the reaction to the trailers on youtube, it seems those who are fans of Lovecraft expected something very different - besides, most of them didn't even know of the 2016 novel "Lovecraft country".
While I am not a fan of Lovecraft, I think he had some worth. Certainly not as much as some of his idols, like Arthur Machen - and Machen himself was only a decent writer, not on the level of one of his own idols, Guy de Maupassant. That said, I have translated three volumes of the Complete Works of Lovecraft, for the book market here, and am somewhat familiar with his themes. While racism ties to his mythology, it morphs into alien beings there, and it is moreover a fusion of different fears, not just the lowly racist substrata but existential variants.

@Snarky, I am really not sure what you think you are doing, but it would be cool if you'd refrain from bothering me. As you can see I don't care about your attitude, nor your opinions so save us both some time /bleah
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #25 on: 28 Jul 2020, 11:10 »
going by the reaction to the trailers on youtube

Yeah, don't do that.

@Snarky, I am really not sure what you think you are doing, but it would be cool if you'd refrain from bothering me. As you can see I don't care about your attitude, nor your opinions so save us both some time /bleah

If by "bothering you" you mean contradict you when you say stuff I disagree with, find ill-informed or obnoxious, then no deal.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #26 on: 28 Jul 2020, 11:16 »
Sigh, you can't be placed on ignore, so I'd hoped you would accept that like others I post here for fun, not to get into meaningless fights that bore me.
Have it your way, discussing this with you is over anyway.
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #27 on: 28 Jul 2020, 11:44 »
I think one would need to be pretty thick to not be capable of guessing why Lovecraft fans will find this insulting and/or a gimmick.

Probably best not to say stuff like this if you're not trying to get into fights...

Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #28 on: 28 Jul 2020, 15:48 »
The preview clip did have a Cthulhu type tentacle monster in it. The next time HBO does a free preview I fully intend to check it out.

Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #29 on: 28 Jul 2020, 15:49 »
The preview clip did have a Cthulhu type tentacle monster in it.

To be fair, lovecraft was not really about tentacle monsters per se :).

Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #30 on: 28 Jul 2020, 16:12 »
Sigh, you can't be placed on ignore, so I'd hoped you would accept that like others I post here for fun, not to get into meaningless fights that bore me.
Have it your way, discussing this with you is over anyway.
Buddy, this isn't your personal blog. If you don't want people to "bother" you, maybe get one of those, instead of opening tons of threads about generic topics on an adventure game engine forum.
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #31 on: 28 Jul 2020, 16:28 »
The point is that, surely, he isn't read due to being a racist.

Of course not. That was never the point of the piece. That part of the puzzle is specifically about the nature of seperating work from author. Plenty of people love Ender's Game but hate Orson Scott Card donating his profits to anti-LGBT organisations. Plenty of people loved House of Cards but didn't much want to continue watching after they found out what Spacey does in his spare times. I'm sure many people fell in love with The Pianist before finding out just what Roman Polanski fled justice from.

It isn't 'the work itself is racist', though occasionally there's some flavour of that. It is 'does the author poison the work for me?'. That's partly why the protagonist is a black man, the character has grown up loving the works of a man that would despise him. It isn't a condemnation alone, but an exploration of that judgement call. Whether you look past the creator for the creation, and what that means for you and your 'fandom'.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #32 on: 28 Jul 2020, 18:59 »
One person I was making video games with in the past used to say "fuck the fans".
That explains so much. I suppose that's what got us Sonic's original movie design.  (laugh)
I'll always stand by the belief that giving the fans what they want, generally results in a better product. When done correctly that is. For example: Shadow the Hedgehog vs Sonic Mania.
Of course, sometimes the fans don't know what they want, for example: Heath Ledger's Joker.

Remember, there's a balance. And you've got to be able to realize the difference between what's being included as fan-service and what's being included because it's required for that franchise. For one last example: having a proton pack in something Ghostbusters related would not be fan-service, but having Slimer would be. Most people don't seem capable of telling the difference though, usually saying it's all fan-service then throwing it all out because "fuck the fans".  (roll)

Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #33 on: 28 Jul 2020, 19:08 »
It isn't 'the work itself is racist', though occasionally there's some flavour of that. It is 'does the author poison the work for me?'. That's partly why the protagonist is a black man, the character has grown up loving the works of a man that would despise him. It isn't a condemnation alone, but an exploration of that judgement call.

That is so wonderfully put.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #34 on: 28 Jul 2020, 20:02 »
Plenty of people love Ender's Game

… or Monkey Island

I'm sure many people fell in love with The Pianist before finding out just what Roman Polanski fled justice from.

Man, I'm sitting directly facing a vintage poster of Chinatown right now. I've had it for decades, but I've been finding it increasingly difficult to look past the artist, and recently made up my mind that I'm not going to hang it in my next apartment.

Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #35 on: 28 Jul 2020, 21:02 »
@Danvzare, "fuck the fans" is something one might say in response to unjustified demands, or when someone uses "fans expectations" as an argument refering to an abstract group of people. It does not literally mean that peoples' opinion does not matter.

Regarding everything else, frankly, the idea that pleasing fans is a driving motive for adding content into a film is quite alien to me, it sounds like putting a cart ahead of a horse. I always believed that it's the consistency and quality of a story that should be the primary goal, while pleased fans is rather a part of a successful outcome.
(E: but then again, what qualifies as "fans" exactly? :) )

PS. I know almost nothing about Sonic, so the example does not tell anything to me. But making movies out of video games is a tricky thing...
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2020, 21:46 by Crimson Wizard »

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #36 on: 28 Jul 2020, 22:26 »
So, another franchise gets squished between lack of originality and a quick cash-in. When will JJ Abrams be brought to justice? At least they didn't get anything good this time. :D

I've always been put off anything "Lovecraftian" by the people that seem to enjoy it. The kind that shows their fillings to the internet to prove how happy they are.

I have to wonder if Lovecraft saw his fans, would he put aside his racism and start hating his own kind?

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #37 on: 29 Jul 2020, 00:27 »
It is 'does the author poison the work for me?'.

Indeed. A lot of people are going through that right now with J.K. Rowling. I'm sure some also went through it with Joss Whedon.

I tend to, for the most part, separate the art from the artist, though I certainly wouldn't defend or condone a person's crimes, or bigotry, or claim we should ignore them simply because of what they created. Quite the opposite.

Polanski raped a child, and should have been jailed for it. Every collection of Lovecraft's stories should feature a essay on his personal views, highlighting just how repugnant some of them were.

In regard to "fans"...if you're writing/creating/producing for someone else's validation, then you're doing it wrong.

I've always been put off anything "Lovecraftian" by the people that seem to enjoy it. The kind that shows their fillings to the internet to prove how happy they are.

I don't quite understand what you mean. What does one have to do with the other?
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #38 on: 29 Jul 2020, 20:48 »
The point is that, surely, he isn't read due to being a racist.

Of course not. That was never the point of the piece. That part of the puzzle is specifically about the nature of seperating work from author. Plenty of people love Ender's Game but hate Orson Scott Card donating his profits to anti-LGBT organisations. Plenty of people loved House of Cards but didn't much want to continue watching after they found out what Spacey does in his spare times. I'm sure many people fell in love with The Pianist before finding out just what Roman Polanski fled justice from.

It isn't 'the work itself is racist', though occasionally there's some flavour of that. It is 'does the author poison the work for me?'. That's partly why the protagonist is a black man, the character has grown up loving the works of a man that would despise him. It isn't a condemnation alone, but an exploration of that judgement call. Whether you look past the creator for the creation, and what that means for you and your 'fandom'.

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Although this isn't about Lovecraft, it might (or might not - I am not optimistic) include some interesting discussion of how the black reader of Lovecraft comes to terms with his literary idol being racist against blacks.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #39 on: 08 Aug 2020, 01:21 »
wasn't Carcosa Robert Chambers not HP?

It's a brilliant book, looking forward to the series.

Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #40 on: 08 Aug 2020, 08:32 »
wasn't Carcosa Robert Chambers not HP?
I believe originally it came from Ambrose Bierce's short story An Inhabitant of Carcosa. But I think these authors liked to put references to their colleagues' work in their fiction.
« Last Edit: 08 Aug 2020, 08:41 by lorenzo »

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #41 on: 08 Aug 2020, 09:02 »
wasn't Carcosa Robert Chambers not HP?

It's a brilliant book, looking forward to the series.

It's just that Lovecraft used part of that mythos in some of his own stories  :)

wasn't Carcosa Robert Chambers not HP?
I believe originally it came from Ambrose Bierce's short story An Inhabitant of Carcosa. But I think these authors liked to put references to their colleagues' work in their fiction.

+1
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #42 on: 12 Aug 2020, 15:06 »
Ancient Greece is the real Lovecraft country ;)

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #43 on: 23 Aug 2020, 04:55 »
A light introduction to the original works:


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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #44 on: 23 Aug 2020, 14:54 »
I believe that once a work becomes so huge it can outgrow the artist's original vision.


I totally agree with Mandle here. I watched it the other night, but wasn't expecting much so I honestly can't say I'm disappointed. I'll probably watch a couple more episodes just to see if it gets more interesting. I think the first HBO True Detective (I forget the name, but had something to do with Yellow King/Carcosa) came much closer to authentically portraying a Lovecraft vibe and atmosphere than this does. This felt more like Lovecraft in-name-only done by Disneyland/Lucasfilm, that's the impression it gave me.

I think in terms of atmosphere movies like the Witch, The Lighthouse, and some others in the folk-horror genre come much closer to giving me the kind of impression of dread that Lovecraft's stories inspired in me when I first read them.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #45 on: 27 Aug 2020, 05:46 »
I think the fact that no serious/good adaptations of Lovecraft exist is due to laziness mostly, and not so much (as it is often claimed) that the actual writing makes an adaptation impossible. Sure, Lovecraft doesn't write as tv-friendly as (say) Stephen King, but there is no reason why at least some of his stories couldn't have been decently adapted. And when it was attempted, the failure was due to the directors just fusing stuff in an idiotic manner, as seen for example in the movie Dagon (which mostly is about The Shadow over Innsmouth).

Even if Del Toro's At the Mountains of Madness would have been filmed (afaik the project is dead), everything about it sounded wrong. Tom Cruise can never be the protagonist in something remaining loyal to Lovecraft, I mean come on.

Some directors/others had claimed that in cinema you can't have protagonists like the one's Lovecraft uses: loners and intellectuals. This is obviously false. I mean movies such as Pi do exist (maybe it can be said to have somewhat of a Lovecraft vibe, despite no cosmic horror - the protagonist is a half-mad loner and the subject is supposedly intellectual).

I think a good italian movie which has a Lovecraft vibe, and (more importantly) is all-around worth watching is this one:


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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #46 on: 27 Aug 2020, 06:20 »
I started watching this "Lovecraft's Country", and so far have strange impression that I like the human drama in it more than supernatural horror. More so, initially I found the fantasy horror part be rather distracting and felt unnecessary at times, perhaps shaded by the real-life horror that characters meet in their travel. Or maybe that was the actual intention of the book and/or film creators.


Also I watched "Color out of space", one with Nickolas Cage et al, recently, because someone recommended it on these forums, and it's pretty good imo.