Author Topic: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works  (Read 2175 times)

KyriakosCH

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #20 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:26 »
I take it you're very much a purist, Kyriakos; a work by an author should be adapted as true to the original as possible? That's the point you're trying to make, isn't it?

But what is your point specifically with Lovecraft? He was racist, so fans of his work would want a racist adaptation? I'm honestly not sure that's what you mean, but that's certainly how it comes across right now. How else am I supposed to understand your opinion that such an adaptation would be insulting to fans?



Isn't it rather logical that fans of Lovecraft would expect a show adapted from Lovecraft's actual works?  8-0

Racism was a clear fault of Lovecraft, not something his audience wants to see. If all Lovecraft was had been a racist, no one would know of him today. Fans clearly expected something tied to cosmic horror and other lovecraftian ideas, not a show about racism.
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2020, 09:27 by KyriakosCH »
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #21 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:43 »
Isn't it rather logical that fans of Lovecraft would expect a show adapted from Lovecraft's actual works?  8-0

Racism was a clear fault of Lovecraft, not something his audience wants to see. If all Lovecraft was had been a racist, no one would know of him today. Fans clearly expected something tied to cosmic horror and other lovecraftian ideas, not a show about racism.

One person I was making video games with in the past used to say "fuck the fans". I always remember this line whenever someone talks about "fans expecting" something. Apparently, it's the fans' job - to expect and be ready to be dissapointed :D.

Who are these "fans"? I loved Lovecraftian stories, and I am not insulted by this show, but rather intrigued. So we are talking about some "die hard" purist fans that cannot stand a single deviation, or single mentioning of his name in vain?

Someone made a work inspired by Lovecraft's themes, and combined them with the themes of his own. Why is that bad? If it's bad only because "fans expect different thing", then I would not bother.
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2020, 09:48 by Crimson Wizard »

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #22 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:53 »
Quote
Isn't it rather logical that fans of Lovecraft would expect a show adapted from Lovecraft's actual works?

That's not my point. There are varing degrees of being true to the original. How much of one work do you need in an adaptation for it to still be one? Has it to be word for word? or the general plot points of the story? Or the themes? or the characters?

You only seem to consider something a proper adaptation if it is one of the purest, clearest type. But such an adaptation, for a known racist, with a work that has (according to other people in this thread - I admit freely, again, that I have not read Lovecraft) racist themes and plots would in itself necessarily be racist.

But an adaptation of a story or more general themes does not need to be.

In other words: How much is it possible to filter racist elements from Lovecraft's work and still having it be Lovecraft's work?


On the other hand, I do understand the sentiment that something that has the name of an author or a story should try to be close to the original, otherwise, it becomes an adaptation in name only - I'm not a fan of these. But the TV show is based on a novel by the same name, so I would only mind - from the adaptation purist point-of-view - if the show had nothing to do with the novel, which was also called Lovecraft Country. The trailer doesn't pretend to be an adaptation of Lovecraft's work. It's an adaptation of the novel with the same name. You can take issue with the fact that the novel has Lovecraft in its name, but from the little information wikipedia gives, the name makes sense.

And that you and some fans might like an adaptation of Lovecraft's work is a different thing. It's not what the novel was, it's not what the TV show will be and it's not what the trailer implies.

Actually, I'm probably more interested in this show than I would be in a pure adaptation of Lovecraft's work, as I'm sure some other people are. And some people might feel like you and not be interested because it hasn't enough elements of Lovecraft. That's fine. Not all books or shows are for everyone, but calling it <insulting to fans> goes most likely several steps too far.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #23 on: 28 Jul 2020, 09:58 »
Isn't it rather logical that fans of Lovecraft would expect a show adapted from Lovecraft's actual works?  8-0

No, it's not. And the tiny contingent of Lovecraft "purists" who might be offended by this (a minuscule subset of the people who are "Lovecraft fans" or might be intrigued by the title) are not the audience.

Fans clearly expected something tied to cosmic horror and other lovecraftian ideas, not a show about racism.

Quit hiding behind "fans" when you obviously mean yourself.

As has already been pointed out, the story does deal with Lovecraftian ideas. And I would argue that Lovecraft's frequent motifs of evil cults and ancestral sin and corruption lend themselves well to being repurposed as allegories for racism.

BTW, I take it you are deeply offended by Murakami's Kafka on the Shore.
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2020, 10:05 by Snarky »

KyriakosCH

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #24 on: 28 Jul 2020, 10:49 »
Quote
Isn't it rather logical that fans of Lovecraft would expect a show adapted from Lovecraft's actual works?

That's not my point. There are varing degrees of being true to the original. How much of one work do you need in an adaptation for it to still be one? Has it to be word for word? or the general plot points of the story? Or the themes? or the characters?

You only seem to consider something a proper adaptation if it is one of the purest, clearest type. But such an adaptation, for a known racist, with a work that has (according to other people in this thread - I admit freely, again, that I have not read Lovecraft) racist themes and plots would in itself necessarily be racist.

But an adaptation of a story or more general themes does not need to be.

In other words: How much is it possible to filter racist elements from Lovecraft's work and still having it be Lovecraft's work?


On the other hand, I do understand the sentiment that something that has the name of an author or a story should try to be close to the original, otherwise, it becomes an adaptation in name only - I'm not a fan of these. But the TV show is based on a novel by the same name, so I would only mind - from the adaptation purist point-of-view - if the show had nothing to do with the novel, which was also called Lovecraft Country. The trailer doesn't pretend to be an adaptation of Lovecraft's work. It's an adaptation of the novel with the same name. You can take issue with the fact that the novel has Lovecraft in its name, but from the little information wikipedia gives, the name makes sense.

And that you and some fans might like an adaptation of Lovecraft's work is a different thing. It's not what the novel was, it's not what the TV show will be and it's not what the trailer implies.

Actually, I'm probably more interested in this show than I would be in a pure adaptation of Lovecraft's work, as I'm sure some other people are. And some people might feel like you and not be interested because it hasn't enough elements of Lovecraft. That's fine. Not all books or shows are for everyone, but calling it <insulting to fans> goes most likely several steps too far.

Let's hope you are right, although going by the reaction to the trailers on youtube, it seems those who are fans of Lovecraft expected something very different - besides, most of them didn't even know of the 2016 novel "Lovecraft country".
While I am not a fan of Lovecraft, I think he had some worth. Certainly not as much as some of his idols, like Arthur Machen - and Machen himself was only a decent writer, not on the level of one of his own idols, Guy de Maupassant. That said, I have translated three volumes of the Complete Works of Lovecraft, for the book market here, and am somewhat familiar with his themes. While racism ties to his mythology, it morphs into alien beings there, and it is moreover a fusion of different fears, not just the lowly racist substrata but existential variants.

@Snarky, I am really not sure what you think you are doing, but it would be cool if you'd refrain from bothering me. As you can see I don't care about your attitude, nor your opinions so save us both some time /bleah
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #25 on: 28 Jul 2020, 11:10 »
going by the reaction to the trailers on youtube

Yeah, don't do that.

@Snarky, I am really not sure what you think you are doing, but it would be cool if you'd refrain from bothering me. As you can see I don't care about your attitude, nor your opinions so save us both some time /bleah

If by "bothering you" you mean contradict you when you say stuff I disagree with, find ill-informed or obnoxious, then no deal.

KyriakosCH

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #26 on: 28 Jul 2020, 11:16 »
Sigh, you can't be placed on ignore, so I'd hoped you would accept that like others I post here for fun, not to get into meaningless fights that bore me.
Have it your way, discussing this with you is over anyway.
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #27 on: 28 Jul 2020, 11:44 »
I think one would need to be pretty thick to not be capable of guessing why Lovecraft fans will find this insulting and/or a gimmick.

Probably best not to say stuff like this if you're not trying to get into fights...

Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #28 on: 28 Jul 2020, 15:48 »
The preview clip did have a Cthulhu type tentacle monster in it. The next time HBO does a free preview I fully intend to check it out.

Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #29 on: 28 Jul 2020, 15:49 »
The preview clip did have a Cthulhu type tentacle monster in it.

To be fair, lovecraft was not really about tentacle monsters per se :).

Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #30 on: 28 Jul 2020, 16:12 »
Sigh, you can't be placed on ignore, so I'd hoped you would accept that like others I post here for fun, not to get into meaningless fights that bore me.
Have it your way, discussing this with you is over anyway.
Buddy, this isn't your personal blog. If you don't want people to "bother" you, maybe get one of those, instead of opening tons of threads about generic topics on an adventure game engine forum.
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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #31 on: 28 Jul 2020, 16:28 »
The point is that, surely, he isn't read due to being a racist.

Of course not. That was never the point of the piece. That part of the puzzle is specifically about the nature of seperating work from author. Plenty of people love Ender's Game but hate Orson Scott Card donating his profits to anti-LGBT organisations. Plenty of people loved House of Cards but didn't much want to continue watching after they found out what Spacey does in his spare times. I'm sure many people fell in love with The Pianist before finding out just what Roman Polanski fled justice from.

It isn't 'the work itself is racist', though occasionally there's some flavour of that. It is 'does the author poison the work for me?'. That's partly why the protagonist is a black man, the character has grown up loving the works of a man that would despise him. It isn't a condemnation alone, but an exploration of that judgement call. Whether you look past the creator for the creation, and what that means for you and your 'fandom'.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #32 on: 28 Jul 2020, 18:59 »
One person I was making video games with in the past used to say "fuck the fans".
That explains so much. I suppose that's what got us Sonic's original movie design.  (laugh)
I'll always stand by the belief that giving the fans what they want, generally results in a better product. When done correctly that is. For example: Shadow the Hedgehog vs Sonic Mania.
Of course, sometimes the fans don't know what they want, for example: Heath Ledger's Joker.

Remember, there's a balance. And you've got to be able to realize the difference between what's being included as fan-service and what's being included because it's required for that franchise. For one last example: having a proton pack in something Ghostbusters related would not be fan-service, but having Slimer would be. Most people don't seem capable of telling the difference though, usually saying it's all fan-service then throwing it all out because "fuck the fans".  (roll)

Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #33 on: 28 Jul 2020, 19:08 »
It isn't 'the work itself is racist', though occasionally there's some flavour of that. It is 'does the author poison the work for me?'. That's partly why the protagonist is a black man, the character has grown up loving the works of a man that would despise him. It isn't a condemnation alone, but an exploration of that judgement call.

That is so wonderfully put.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #34 on: 28 Jul 2020, 20:02 »
Plenty of people love Ender's Game

… or Monkey Island

I'm sure many people fell in love with The Pianist before finding out just what Roman Polanski fled justice from.

Man, I'm sitting directly facing a vintage poster of Chinatown right now. I've had it for decades, but I've been finding it increasingly difficult to look past the artist, and recently made up my mind that I'm not going to hang it in my next apartment.

Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #35 on: 28 Jul 2020, 21:02 »
@Danvzare, "fuck the fans" is something one might say in response to unjustified demands, or when someone uses "fans expectations" as an argument refering to an abstract group of people. It does not literally mean that peoples' opinion does not matter.

Regarding everything else, frankly, the idea that pleasing fans is a driving motive for adding content into a film is quite alien to me, it sounds like putting a cart ahead of a horse. I always believed that it's the consistency and quality of a story that should be the primary goal, while pleased fans is rather a part of a successful outcome.
(E: but then again, what qualifies as "fans" exactly? :) )

PS. I know almost nothing about Sonic, so the example does not tell anything to me. But making movies out of video games is a tricky thing...
« Last Edit: 28 Jul 2020, 21:46 by Crimson Wizard »

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #36 on: 28 Jul 2020, 22:26 »
So, another franchise gets squished between lack of originality and a quick cash-in. When will JJ Abrams be brought to justice? At least they didn't get anything good this time. :D

I've always been put off anything "Lovecraftian" by the people that seem to enjoy it. The kind that shows their fillings to the internet to prove how happy they are.

I have to wonder if Lovecraft saw his fans, would he put aside his racism and start hating his own kind?

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #37 on: 29 Jul 2020, 00:27 »
It is 'does the author poison the work for me?'.

Indeed. A lot of people are going through that right now with J.K. Rowling. I'm sure some also went through it with Joss Whedon.

I tend to, for the most part, separate the art from the artist, though I certainly wouldn't defend or condone a person's crimes, or bigotry, or claim we should ignore them simply because of what they created. Quite the opposite.

Polanski raped a child, and should have been jailed for it. Every collection of Lovecraft's stories should feature a essay on his personal views, highlighting just how repugnant some of them were.

In regard to "fans"...if you're writing/creating/producing for someone else's validation, then you're doing it wrong.

I've always been put off anything "Lovecraftian" by the people that seem to enjoy it. The kind that shows their fillings to the internet to prove how happy they are.

I don't quite understand what you mean. What does one have to do with the other?
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KyriakosCH

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #38 on: 29 Jul 2020, 20:48 »
The point is that, surely, he isn't read due to being a racist.

Of course not. That was never the point of the piece. That part of the puzzle is specifically about the nature of seperating work from author. Plenty of people love Ender's Game but hate Orson Scott Card donating his profits to anti-LGBT organisations. Plenty of people loved House of Cards but didn't much want to continue watching after they found out what Spacey does in his spare times. I'm sure many people fell in love with The Pianist before finding out just what Roman Polanski fled justice from.

It isn't 'the work itself is racist', though occasionally there's some flavour of that. It is 'does the author poison the work for me?'. That's partly why the protagonist is a black man, the character has grown up loving the works of a man that would despise him. It isn't a condemnation alone, but an exploration of that judgement call. Whether you look past the creator for the creation, and what that means for you and your 'fandom'.

Sweet home Carcosa, where the skies are circled by strange moons

Although this isn't about Lovecraft, it might (or might not - I am not optimistic) include some interesting discussion of how the black reader of Lovecraft comes to terms with his literary idol being racist against blacks.

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Re: HBO series supposedly about Lovecraft's works
« Reply #39 on: 08 Aug 2020, 01:21 »
wasn't Carcosa Robert Chambers not HP?

It's a brilliant book, looking forward to the series.