Where is everybody

Started by BarbWire, Sun 30/08/2020 14:20:33

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BarbWire

Hi whoever may be here

Is it just me or is the footfall on AGS slowing to a trickle,
resembling a western street at high noon.

Certain people do post quite regularly, but others seem
to have vanished completely.

I realise, of course, that circumstances change and the
longer serving members have other commitments that
take priority.

Also, there are some fantastic games scheduled for 2021
which will keep their writing teams occupied for the next
few months.

It would be nice to see games discussed more (After all this
is what AGS was designed for) rather than time being taken
up playing guessing games etc.

Please don't take offence at anything I've written, and if you
don't like anything I've said just ignore me.







Mandle

Quote from: BarbWire on Sun 30/08/2020 14:20:33
It would be nice to see games discussed more rather than time being taken
up playing games

(laugh) (laugh) (laugh)

(Yes, I paraphrased it without permission for "comedic" effect.)

I have also noticed less and less posting by long-time members but know the reasons in some cases: Yes, new life commitments, commitments to ongoing full game projects, etc.

Perhaps you should start a new thread kicking off the kind of game discussion you would like to read and participate in, or revive one of the older threads?

Not being snarky here. It's a serious suggestion.

Lantern Bearer

Maybe everyone's been cooped up for too long and have gone outdoors, the end of summer's fleeting especially given the past few months quarantined. I think the forum will come back in time but for now I'd like to believe everyone's out somewhere enjoying themselves before the long, dark days of winter arrive again.

BarbWire


Hi Mandle

I like your suggestion and will give this some thought.

What I find strange is that some games receive rave
reviews, when they first appear in the Completed Games
Announcements, but these very quickly fizzle out.

Nobody writes any follow ups, after playing the game,
reporting on likes, dislikes, what could be improved etc.

It would be nice if the gaming community provided enough
Player Ratings (Yellow cups) so that AGS Panel Ratings (Blue cups)
can then be awarded.

BarbWire


Hi Lantern Bearer

To be honest I think even less people were on AGS while
being cooped up. I would have thought gaming was the
ideal way to pass the time. I suppose they were too busy
exercising, baking or uploading videos to Tik Tok.  :)

Now that they can get out, and in many cases return to
work, maybe they will start to play games again, for
relaxation.

Pogwizd

#5
Quote from: BarbWire on Mon 31/08/2020 12:34:28
What I find strange is that some games receive rave
reviews, when they first appear in the Completed Games
Announcements, but these very quickly fizzle out.

Nobody writes any follow ups, after playing the game,
reporting on likes, dislikes, what could be improved etc.

I often play AGS games long after they were released when they already are on the second (or further) page of the forum. So when that happens I don't really want to bump the topic back to the top. But that's me.

heltenjon

Quote from: Pogwizd on Mon 31/08/2020 13:42:13
Quote from: BarbWire on Mon 31/08/2020 12:34:28
What I find strange is that some games receive rave
reviews, when they first appear in the Completed Games
Announcements, but these very quickly fizzle out.

Nobody writes any follow ups, after playing the game,
reporting on likes, dislikes, what could be improved etc.

I often play AGS games long after they were released when they already are on the second (or further) page of the forum. So when that happens I don't really want to bump the topic back to the top. But that's me.

I second that, but I get that the developers wants the feedback, so perhaps we shouldn't be afraid to bump it. I tend to stay away from the threads concerning games until after I've played them for spoiler reasons. And if I'm a beta tester or proofreader, I don't really feel it's my place to give a rave review on the site - but maybe I'm being too cautious.

BarbWire


Hi Pogwizd

Surely it doesn't hurt to bump games to the top,
if you think they are worthy.

That way the game won't be missed by people
who probably just glance at the first page.  :)

BarbWire


Hi Heltenjon

It doesn't hurt to bump. It just shows that the game
deserves to be played.

I agree that developers welcome feedback, and it doesn't
always have to be positive. Constructive criticism is fine,too

There may be something that doesn't work as it should, or
some other error that nobody else has noticed. These can
only be fixed if the developer is aware of them.

Darth Mandarb

Quote from: BarbWire on Mon 31/08/2020 14:51:01Surely it doesn't hurt to bump games to the top,
if you think they are worthy.

That way the game won't be missed by people
who probably just glance at the first page.  :)

Umm...

Quote from: Games in Production Forum RulesDO NOT dig up old threads!!
If you're interested in an old thread* about a project don't post asking about the progress.  Send a PM to the game's author.  If the project has been cancelled and/or abandoned there's no point in bumping the thread!

I don't think there's any rule about "necro" posting in the Completed Games forum though (if that's what was meant)?

Though I've been considering loosening that restriction a bit because I too have noticed the severe decline in forum participation (I remember times, years ago, when I would login and the "users online" area would be HUGE... now it's rare to see maybe 5 others online).

I worry that the AGS forums have become too... elitist. Too stringent. Too unfriendly and new users are put-off by it. I have seen so many times where a new user posts an honest (innocent) question that has, admittedly, been asked countless times and they get hammered down for daring to ask! Or a slight rule violation brings down the wrath of the community! A little on-the-nose coming from me (for my strict enforcement of the GIP rules) but I've loosened up a LOT in recent years. We want to expand our beloved community. Not chase people off with draconian rules and attitudes. A few years ago I had a conversation with somebody (I think it was on pixeljoint) and they specifically mentioned they love AGS (the program) but can't stand the attitudes of the community.

I also think it's possible that because programs like Unity, Game Maker, Godot, etc have done a better job staying modernized (while maintaining the ability to be "retro") and work on modern platforms (Android, iOS, etc) while AGS still really only works on PCs. People want their games to be seen by a lot of people and the PC gaming market isn't what it even just 10 years ago.

BarbWire


What an honour! Lil ol' me being addressed by Darth Mandarb.  :)

I wasn't really refering to necro posting, more to games that have slid
from top placing, but are still deserving of comments.

The reason I started the discussion was mainly because of the apparent
lack of interest in the platform. As you rightly say there are times when
there can be a handful of people posting.

On the whole I think the community is friendly. However, there is the
odd occasion when a comment might cause unintentional offence.

It is true that after spending, sometimes years, producing a game
the developers want it to be seen , but apart from Gamejolt and Itch I.O
there are no other sites to upload to. There is such a large turnover on
these sites that a game can vanish in the blink of an eye.

As far as I'm concerned the PC will always be the prefered platform for
serious gamers, and AGS rules.  :-D

Laura Hunt

#11
Another issue I see is that there are very few people who bother replying to technical/scripting questions. These days it's mostly Crimson Wizard, Khris and Cassiebsg, with sometimes Snarky or morganw popping in. I try to give as much as I can back to the community and I've managed to help quite a few new users with basic questions, but my knowledge is still very limited. I fear that the day a couple of these people say "fuck this, I'm out", AGS will be truly and definitely dead :(

Adeel

Thanks for asking the tough question, BarbWire.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Mon 31/08/2020 15:38:51
Spoiler
I worry that the AGS forums have become too... elitist. Too stringent. Too unfriendly and new users are put-off by it. I have seen so many times where a new user posts an honest (innocent) question that has, admittedly, been asked countless times and they get hammered down for daring to ask! Or a slight rule violation brings down the wrath of the community! A little on-the-nose coming from me (for my strict enforcement of the GIP rules) but I've loosened up a LOT in recent years. We want to expand our beloved community. Not chase people off with draconian rules and attitudes. A few years ago I had a conversation with somebody (I think it was on pixeljoint) and they specifically mentioned they love AGS (the program) but can't stand the attitudes of the community.
[close]

This. This is the exact reason why I've been put off with this community.

We've got an infamous member who, in the name of "helping the beginner", likes to pound on the noob and tear him to shreds. If it really bothers him, why doesn't he let others answer the questions and let it be? Because he can't let go of his "kingdom", of course. Apparently no mod has been willing to tell him to tone down his toxic behavior or sod off. Many users have complained about this, but their complaints went unheeded.

Then we have users (especially a certain mod) who really love to jump down the throat of anyone who dares to post even a slightly differing opinion. This very vocal (and very hostile) minority has chased off even the longtime members from this community. Well done, guys. Now y'all can happily live in your echo chamber.

The forums have been in decline for a long time, but nobody wants to admit that. Those old-timers who have remained are unwilling to change. It seems they've resorted to let the community go to waste.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Mon 31/08/2020 15:38:51
Spoiler

I also think it's possible that because programs like Unity, Game Maker, Godot, etc have done a better job staying modernized (while maintaining the ability to be "retro") and work on modern platforms (Android, iOS, etc) while AGS still really only works on PCs. People want their games to be seen by a lot of people and the PC gaming market isn't what it even just 10 years ago.
[close]
Yes. This is definitely the reason why many AGS Devs have moved on to other game engines. AGS just doesn't cut it anymore, unfortunately. I know at least one dev who moved on to another engine because he didn't want to fight with the AGS engine to make it compatible with other platforms, especially when the other game engines support multi-platform out of the box. Kudos to those who make AGS work on other platforms, but not everyone has enough resources or programming aptitude to do it.

As much as I love PC and PC Gaming, the reality is that most of the people would rather play games on other platforms, if possible. And point-and-click adventure games tend to lend themselves quite well to "point (your finger)-and-touch" on mobile devices. Mobile gaming is a big market that can't be ignored.

I love and respect all the hard work that Crimson Wizard and others have done to build and maintain AGS, but it seems like they're fighting a losing battle. Unless AGS radically changes, it will continue to lose out.

milkanannan

I think we have to admit that we are an ageing community of people that share a hobby whose glory days were 25 years ago. Point and click hasn't really been anywhere near the mainstream since then, so we're pretty niche. Perhaps updating AGS to tap functionality would attract a new generation of adventure game makers, but my guess is this isn't actually what the core of this community wants. (I don't mean to speak for anyone else, but this is what it looks like to me.)

Khris

Quote from: Adeel on Mon 31/08/2020 17:26:11We've got an infamous member who, in the name of "helping the beginner", likes to pound on the noob and tear him to shreds. If it really bothers him, why doesn't he let others answer the questions and let it be? Because he can't let go of his "kingdom", of course. Apparently no mod has been willing to tell him to tone down his toxic behavior or sod off. Many users have complained about this, but their complaints went unheeded.

Can you show a specific example of this?

Mandle

168 Guests, 6 Users (0 Buddies)

Most Online Today: 175. Most Online Ever: 823 (08 Jul 2020, 09:37)

So yeah, there are tons of people who are here as casual viewers, probably mostly looking for answers to technical issues for their AGS projects, but not members or not logged in.

I was surprised to see that Most Ever Online was July of this year.

I think this shows that interest in the engine itself is not shrinking, but interest in participating in these forums is.

newwaveburritos

I'm very new here and I've definitely spent a lot more time reading the forum than posting or interacting.  Most of the questions I've had been answered already.  The community here has been pretty great in terms of answering questions but I think part of what you're saying is that this place shouldn't just be a place where people's technical questions get qanswered so who knows?  I get what you mean about the snobbery but it didn't dissuade me at all.  But nobody wants fifteen people asking everyday wanting to get spoonfed  from the manual.  Although I suppose that might be better than the alternative where people abandon AGS altogether.  I don't think that's in danger of happening.  It's still get a huge support system that made me feel comfortable in picking it.

Personally, though I don't really post in as many internet forums across the board as I used to so I don't necessarily think it's just this place.

Click'd

Well, BarbWire...

Your first post was over a year after you registered, and then there are month-long breaks, once for over a year yet again. I'm not saying this to attack you but for perspective.

What do you even want to have discussed more about games? Dissecting every last bit of released, or leaked (, or rumored) information won't help anyone. At least in my case that would be really tiring instead. I tend to stay away from hypes so I don't already feel like I have seen everything the moment the game comes out.

LimpingFish

Hmm. A lot to take in.

To be honest, people equating the perceived lack of forum activity with some (largely imagined) upswing in heavy-handed moderation, are...wrong? I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. The most high-profile moderation interventions of recent times largely concern actual violations in forum policy, or were attempts by the moderators to introduce updated rules to address these changing times.

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Mon 31/08/2020 15:38:51
I worry that the AGS forums have become too... elitist. Too stringent...Too unfriendly and new users are put-off by it. Or a slight rule violation brings down the wrath of the community!....We want to expand our beloved community. Not chase people off with draconian rules and attitudes.

Hi, Darth. As we've discussed in the past, I know you largely consider the hazards of an"open" forum as a necessary evil within a vital community, but could you elaborate on these points? Especially in regards to "unfriendly".

Quote from: Adeel on Mon 31/08/2020 17:26:11
Then we have users (especially a certain mod) who really love to jump down the throat of anyone who dares to post even a slightly differing opinion. This very vocal (and very hostile) minority has chased off even the longtime members from this community. Well done, guys. Now y'all can happily live in your echo chamber.

Uh...wut? That's a pretty bold claim. I presume you have multiple examples and proof to back-up your argument?

People seem to be throwing nebulous descriptions like "hostile", "snobbery", and "draconian" around as though they're largely accepted as accurately representing how the community is run. You're welcome to your opinions, of course, but if all you've got to go on is, for instance, our unwillingness to tolerate anti-trans rhetoric, or our desire to limit the spread of conspiracy theories or "alternative facts", then maybe the problem isn't as rampant as you think.

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Retro Wolf

I've always tended to post little, I've been a member since 2009 and only made over a thousand posts, compared to other members that is not a lot. I tend to check the forum daily though.

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