Where is everybody

Started by BarbWire, Sun 30/08/2020 14:20:33

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Darth Mandarb

So any forum members who have concerns about the state of things around here are a joke and should be made fun of?

We feel this is acceptable behavior?


Snarky

I wasn't making fun of any forum members or their concerns, but joking about the general tenor of the thread, after multiple posters (including the thread starter) complained that it had deteriorated into a general airing of grievances. If you think that's "unacceptable behavior" I guess we have another one to add to the list.

I would also say that the thread has indirectly answered the original question: one reason why there's less activity here is that many of the forum regulars simply don't get along with each other.

Darth Mandarb

I get what you're saying. You feel that you can't get along with some forum members and that you meant no insult with the festivus image.

Can you see how your response (w/ the image) could be interpreted as insulting and/or dismissive though?

Even if it wasn't your intent can you at least acknowledge the possibility that some might see it as such regardless of how sure you are that they should have seen it your way?

LimpingFish

Quote from: Adeel on Tue 01/09/2020 16:08:43
Way to go, LimpingFish. Nice of you to paint all the users' grievances as "they won't let me write anti-trans rhetoric or alternative facts". Very nice tactic.

Then please, air your particular grievance. This is the first I've heard of your apparent upset with your experience here, and, despite what you may think, I'm more that happy to discuss it in a friendly manner. :)

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Tue 01/09/2020 15:45:53
I have noticed unfriendly behavior in the treatment of new members (as I mentioned in my previous post) as well as general unfriendliness towards any member who holds views that don't align with the broader views of forum goers. There's a general sense of suppressing unpopular opinions. Almost no effort is made to engage in civil discourse they are just brow-beaten into silence. No room for discussion or understanding.

Thanks for replying. I agree totally with you that aggressive behavior towards new members is unacceptable. Having said that, I honestly don't believe many of the subjects I've moderated to be open to debate in a way that would please both parties. I've moderated everything from Recruitment and CGA thread violations, spam, and bots, to the posting of bigoted views regarding race and gender. I've also moderated conspiracy theory threads and the posting of blatant false COVID-19 information. In the cases of run-the-mill thread violations, I've engaged with the users in question, as these situations can usually be rectified. But when it comes to bigotry and the spread of misinformation, I honestly don't consider there to be two sides to the argument. I don't believe I've ever become aggressive, though, as I'm not a fan of confrontation.

But if the argument is that when somebody posts a controversial opinion or view, and offended people post in a aggressively towards them, that moderators should step in and reprimand these offended users, then I'd be open to discussing that. I don't personally like it when someone shouts "Nazi!" or tells someone to fuck off, as I feel that it brings nothing to the situation except more antagonism.

Quote from: Ali on Tue 01/09/2020 17:45:19
Perhaps I missed this? Who's been bullied out?

Beats me. Apparently someone has. As you said, the only name that's been mentioned is m0ds. Personally, I liked m0ds, having met him a couple of times in IRL. But he seemed to become very disillusioned with how people viewed AGS in general (not simply how the forums were being run), and while some heated debates took place, I too can't say he was bullied out. As far as I could see from any posts he made, he chose to leave.

Again, a number of people in this thread are equating the disappearance of longtime members with how the forums are run, or due to an upswing in "leftist" moderation, as some open secret. To that I say...

Spoiler
[close]

Steam: LimpingFish
PSN: LFishRoller
XB: TheActualLimpingFish
Spotify: LimpingFish

Stupot

The irony of it all is that this is a thread asking ‘Where is everybody?’ and suddenly, loads of AGSers have come out to comment on it. So everybody is obviously still here. But instead of commenting with pleasantries and suggestions of ways to boost forum participation, we’ve descended into bickering. I think that answers the question.

Let’s start by changing the tone of this thread.

Quick, somebody start a Bake Sale, or a chain story or a workshop, or another Swarm Game

Jack

Quote from: eri0o on Tue 01/09/2020 16:52:59
I don't think this place is left wing at all.

Gotta disagree with this. Left wing is the norm in society, and this place is further left than that, ending up on the extreme left. An example would be against forum rules, but suffice it to say that if some people have convinced themselves that black is white, you'd be called a monster for disagreeing with them. This would be because you have offended someone and their sacred beliefs. Images are conjured up of people with extremely fragile psyches who would be harmed by someone disagreeing with them. And the statistics do seem to support this, but most of these fatal incidents happen on zebra crossings. (<-- That was a joke). Censorship and an intolerance for differing views characterises the extreme ideology.

Anyway, I don't think this is exactly the fragility that causes reduced forum participation. Others have correctly stated the main reasons: The forum itself is an older format (which is actually a good thing), the engine has gone from being one of few to one of many, it's for a niche genre. The reduced participation I have a problem with is when people I like stop posting. Some people I don't like have stopped posting for the same reason. They do this because of a very bad habit that people in the west have: When we encounter something that we really don't like, even if it's attached to something we really do like, our impulse is to throw up our hands in disgust and walk away. We do this with everything, and it has cost us the civility and prosperity of all of our countries, because we do not participate in our governments.

Take this advice from a South African whose nation's history clearly illustrates this lesson: Running away solves nothing. You can keep moving, you can trek across an ocean and then a continent in search of peace, but eventually they find you where you live and they claim that for England too.

Reiter

Well, now... An interesting question.

  Part of it, of course, is that forums are decidedly 'old-hat' today. They do not generate the sort of involvement and traffic that they used to. If it is not a social media entity or at the very least available on Reddit, it seems it is simply not on 'the radar' any more.
A shame, I think, since I rather detest what social media has become, and prefer the simplicity of a good old-fashioned forum such as this before Discord, although I cannot deny its utility. Nonetheless, I think that the age of the little forum is not yet over, and we must remember that the sort of person that would appreciate the sort of games that AGS is chiefly built to provide may also be the sort of person that would not object to using an old-fashioned forum.
Of course, every site and community must some day face that the big days are over, and settle for being smaller than it was. I think, however, that it is possible to keep the lights on regardless.

  Another part of it is the particular niche-ness of our niche. In a world of free or at least reasonably priced game making software, AGS is an oddity. While you can do all sorts of things with AGS if you can imagine how, it is chiefly meant for a very specific sort of game; an old-fashioned two-dimensional point-and-click adventure game. A genre that is both a small niche and a rather limited gameplay medium.

But! Let us not sell AGS short! It is an extraordinarily useful little tool, tirelessly improved and documented by skilled and dedicated enthusiasts.
It is very robust in its simplicity, for while it cannot do much besides its purpose, it does it very well. The fact that a dunderhead like myself can make heads-or-tails out of it speaks for itself. All you need to get started is AGS and Microsoft Paint. While I hope to learn and 'advance' to other engines (such as Godot) to explore other genres, the simplicity of AGS will always ensure its place. I am quite sure other AGS novices would agree.
It must be noted that the platform limitation is a reason as to why AGS will likely become a pure hobbyist tool, rather than a versatile professional adventure game maker. There will, of course, be exceptions, but I fear that it will simply not be able to keep its place as a competitive development kit. Still, I think it and the community can thrive.
We are chiefly amateurs. We work out of love. This matters, ladies and gentlemen. A small fish in a vast pond can be none the less scintillating. A sudden 'mass' appeal and usage of AGS is as likely as us all receiving knighthoods, but I do think that people will keep discovering it and using it, particularly if they are helped along the way. A certain shyness is an inevitable aspect of any community, but it can be overcome.

  However, I must make a note of the general atmosphere, as discussed previously. It is in decline, and that is no doubt another reason why there is a particular slump in community life at the moment.
It cannot be denied that there are some tensions and disagreements here, and although I am not long enough in the tooth to truly tell if it has gotten 'worse', I must say that it s e e m s so. Or rather, tempers fray more easily, and the disagreements turn sharper and nastier.

This is a small club. We cannot help but to tread on each other's corns now and then. It is always like that in any community. However, I fear that the present environment means that disagreements are easily taken too far, and ties cut too readily, and animosities established. Things get uglier than they need to.

Now, a v e r y important point to consider: The rather unpleasant atmosphere that has developed here is not just an AGS community difficulty. This is very important to remember. It is not a problem specific to us, here. It is everywhere. All across the dataweb, and in ordinary company. It is a vast phenomenon, at present, and it is reflected here, as anywhere.

It is as it is, this pervading atmosphere at the moment. Quarrelsome and tense. Tempers fray and rows are kicked up. Legitimate grievances becomes insurmountable differences.
This is a bad year, this two-thousand and twentieth. A lot of tensions and worries, and quarrels old and new, all served nestling on a bed of a world epidemic. We are under belligerent and disruptive stars, at present. No wonder that we are rattled and irritable. However, I do believe that it will get better, eventually. The general atmosphere will 'cool off', and our little habitat will reflect that, too.
What may be important up until then, is to keep a clear sense of our grievances, so that we do not lose something that cannot be regained, something we may come to regret later. It is not my place to say 'play nice', and that is not the point. It may, however, be more important now than ever to keep a cold head, and be prepared to let a disagreement be, for a while.
Grievances do require taking out of the cupboard for some airing, otherwise they might mould. But it is a rather stormy day, at present. It may be better to wait.

  As for specific solutions, I regret to say that I can think of none, other than making games, discussing games, having some fun forum games... Helping where we can to keep the AGS tools and the culture around them useful and pleasant. Doing what we do, and what we like.

As for me, I think that I shall try to become a more reliable poster. A little word, here and there. Worry less about the content, as it were, as if I were billed by the letter. They say one should be the change they want to see. This little forum, like all little forums, is a habitat well worth spending some time on.
I am of little help in technical matters, but I think that I shall keep an eye on the questions forum more, too. Do my bit. Perhaps invent a few games and jollities of my own. Be the change, etc.
As far as I have seen, the AGS community has always run a rather tight ship, although it has been merrier than now. I think that we can turn it into that merry ship again, particularly when the bad weather subsides.

After all, we have soldiered on to September, have we not? Eight done, four more to go.

As always, do forgive the mammoth post. It keeps escaping. I shall have to buy it more hay. Further, I do appreciate the amusing fact that I came galloping in time to post in a thread that made me question why I so seldom post.

Ponch

Sometimes real life just gets in the way our online lives. After being a constant presence on these forums for years, I drifted away for a long time. Recently, I have returned and was thrilled to find that this blue corner of the interwebs just as nice as I remember it being. Trolls are rare on these boards and I've always found the tone here to be quite polite if just a little bit chilly to newbies. Many of the old forums I use to haunt are dead or on life support, but this place is still standing and nicely populated. That makes me happy.

As for grievances, I hate candy sprinkles. Don't like them on cakes. Hate them on donuts. I was in Iceland when I turned 21 (the last good birthday for Americans) and what should have been a perfect, brightly-lit in late evening sort of day was marred by the birthday cake my sergeant made for me. It had tiny candy sprinkles on it. I smiled and thanked her. I got drunk with my team as tradition requires, but inside I wept chalky-sweet, brightly colored tears. There. I've finally got that off my chest after carrying around the pain for nearly 27 years. I feel so much better now. Thanks, AGS Forums, for giving me a chance to finally grieve.

Adeel

Quote from: LimpingFish on Wed 02/09/2020 00:34:09
Quote from: Adeel on Tue 01/09/2020 16:08:43
Way to go, LimpingFish. Nice of you to paint all the users' grievances as "they won't let me write anti-trans rhetoric or alternative facts". Very nice tactic.
Then please, air your particular grievance. This is the first I've heard of your apparent upset with your experience here, and, despite what you may think, I'm more that happy to discuss it in a friendly manner. :)
Thank you, LimpingFish. You're a nice person.  I've always been grateful about the games you've gifted me (and others) in the past.  :)

It's funny you ask me to "air my grievance" right after when your fellow mod makes a "joke" about the very same thing (but then backpedals when confronted by Darth).

This might be the first time you've heard about my "upset" as you put it, but I've been unhappy for a while now. And no, my unhappiness has nothing to do with not being allowed to express my 'right-wing', 'conspiracy theories', 'anti-science' views. I'm a left-leaning person myself. Can't believe I've to clarify that, because otherwise, I'd be labelled "just another guy who hates he can't post his nut-job views".

To be honest, I was very hesitant to post even a word here, knowing the reaction that'd come out. I only posted after Darth's post, encouraged to see that I'm not the only one who sees the problem in the attitudes of the users.

I've been in this community for 7 years now, and I've seen a lot of stuff that has gone down over the years. I've been friends with many people here (and still keep in touch with some of them on Steam, IRC, Facebook from time to time). Several users have been disillusioned with the way things are run here. They have told me so and others in private. It's just that no one wants to confront people or air their dirty laundry in public. No one wants to be "that guy". I didn't want to become "that guy" either, so I've kept quiet and drifted away from the forums myself. I still tend to browse the forums now and then (without logging in). I've seen the sorry state of affairs of the forums nowadays. When this thread popped up, I thought maybe I should post and give my opinion on why it is so. But, like I said, I was very hesitant to post here.

Frankly, I don't have the time or energy to post back-and-forth detailed responses. There's no point. You can dismiss all my posts as the ramblings of a madman or "specious reasoning". Everything is fine and dandy, after all.

And Khris, I tried to be nice with you by not mentioning your name. You can try to justify all your toxicity however you want. But it won't change the fact that you've spewed a lot of vitriol in the past.

Snarky

Quote from: Darth Mandarb on Wed 02/09/2020 00:28:38
Even if it wasn't your intent can you at least acknowledge the possibility that some might see it as such regardless of how sure you are that they should have seen it your way?

Yes, apparently. So to be clear: As far as I'm concerned, people are welcome to air any concerns or grievances they have.

Mandle

We're all going to have opinions specific to ourselves, whether they be about politics, religion, gender-roles, or whatever!

But we are here to make and enjoy games.

If someone makes a game with an outlook you don't agree on, then just don't play it. You don't HAVE to mount a campaign to drag their game through the dirt and expose it as the "atrocity" you see it as.

Same goes for opinions posted on these forums. If they offend you then just move on.

This is not Twitter where everything has to be a battle to the death of people over their opinions.

Come on, guys, this is AGS, where we come to get away from all that.

As far as the moderation goes. Yeah, I was scared of Snarky and Khris at first. I saw their (sometimes harshish) posts and was a bit intimidated, until I asked myself why they were here and why they were doing what they do. And the answer was because, despite a zero paycheck, they want AGS to succeed as a game engine.

And I have interacted with both of them and never had any real problems. Mostly I gained knowledge, or at least a frame of reference for how far certain posts here should go, which is also fine. There is no "Freedom of speech" clause when you enter the AGS forums. If you step over a line, you will be informed. If you don't like where that line is drawn, then just remember that this is a site about making and playing games. This is not intended as a site to stage radical societal change.

Sure, I saw Khris telling Jack to "Shut up" in many threads because he doesn't like his views. But I never saw Khris use his Mod powers to silence those views.

Grow a thicker skin, people. Nobody is ever going to agree with you 100% on your opinions. Stop arguing about them. If you don't agree with someone, then just ignore them, Don't play their games. Whatever.

Gilbert

Quote from: Mandle on Wed 02/09/2020 06:59:59
Sure, I saw Khris telling Jack to "Shut up" in many threads because he doesn't like his views. But I never saw Khris use his Mod powers to silence those views.

Errr... Khris is not a moderator here.

Mandle

Quote from: Gilbert on Wed 02/09/2020 07:12:44
Quote from: Mandle on Wed 02/09/2020 06:59:59
Sure, I saw Khris telling Jack to "Shut up" in many threads because he doesn't like his views. But I never saw Khris use his Mod powers to silence those views.

Errr... Khris is not a moderator here.

Sorry, my bad. I still doubt he would have used said powers in this way though if he had them.

rongel

Just a quick note in defense of AGS. This forum is one of the very few sites that I follow daily. I've been working on my game for five-six years already(!) and constantly visited the forums. The main reason is to get technical advice, either by reading old posts, or sometimes by starting a new thread. And I have always been surprised how quickly I get an answer! So without the forums, I would have gotten nowhere. The interest that people have showed my game is also very much appreciated, and has been a needed motivator.

I feel a bit bad that I don't post here more often, or give technical advice myself (well, I think there are people who are much, much better at that). I try to stay far away from heated arguments, or conflict situations here, I don't have time for that, and nobody has ever managed to change someone's views with online discussion. Also english is not my native language and in today's (overly?) sensitive atmosphere, one typo, or a bad joke could cancel you out before you even noticed that you made a mistake.

So while I may seem inactive, I follow closely what happens here, and wish AGS best of luck in these difficult days! Now, back to making games!  :=
Dreams in the Witch House on Steam & GOG

Babar

This place definitely is more left-wing than other places I frequent on the web as an avid gamer and game developer.  Personally, I don't mind that, but I could be biased  :=, as so many other places I frequent are so virulently right-wing (I hate that sort of political/economic division to describe it, though- transphobia and xenophobia aren't supposed to be political positions).

Anyways, since we're airing grievances:

That TK guy is too nice! I mean, as a newbie, I might have felt him and ScummBuddy and Necro and Gilbot and TerranRich and Radiant (all too nice!) were a bit sharp (the original Khris! :grin: ), but I probably wouldn't have learnt AGS without them
Same for that Necro guy. Always promoting smoking and being a reptile by making it look cool in his avatar, but still, helping me in AGS
And that MrColossal. Acting like such a huge guy, but at least helping me out with those awesome tutorials. Without him and miez and ildu and DarthMandarb (WHERE IS THAT DAMNED STAR WARS GAME? I'VE BEEN WAITING OVER A DECADE) and Farlander, I'd be even more of a pixel-art idiot than I am now.
And m0ds for making music that was just too good! People got the wrong expectation of my game with that stuff!
And Evil and Peter Thomas and miez again and even Tanker for giving my my first experience working on a game in a team. WHY WOULD YOU SUBJECT ME TO THAT?!
And Iqu/Ian/Squinky the First for hosting my first site for so many years. Why would you allow me to inflict that on the internet?
And Custard and Vel and Al_Ninio and AGA and BOYD and FSi and the lot for making me stick with IRC. It's 2020, and I'M STILL THERE!
And ProgzMax for being good in art, music AND scripting. Sure, you may have helped me in all those things, but it's unfair on the rest of us!
And Scotch for spending several hours helping me set up and get OpenCV running way back when. Sure, I thanked you in my Thesis acknowledgements, but why would you let me think that gesture recognition was the future of computing?!
And Opo Terser for randomly showing up in C&C Lounge, dumping an incredibly beautiful fix to whatever was being asked for criticism, specifying that it was done in MSPaint, and then disappearing. Why make the rest of us feel so inadequate?!
And bicilotti for burning in the image of breakfast in bed from a bald, velvet-bathrobe-clad italian stallion into my head forever
And Matt for never giving me that signed pixel-art that he promised
And Ali for confusing me into thinking "Hey, another muslimbro on the forums, I'm not alone!". SO MANY YEARS I WAS DISILLUSIONED
And Ghost for keeping me up so many late nights due to different time zones, with help and conversations (I miss you, buddy)
And CrimsonWizard for constantly dragging AGS forward and making me need to constantly learn it again.

To be honest, there are far too many of you that I have grievances with. It's because of all of you I've been trapped here since 2003. Otherwise, I'd have bounced when AGS dumped the Interaction Editor.
The ultimate Professional Amateur

Now, with his very own game: Alien Time Zone

Fitz

#55
Wow, I just realized that it was 10 years ago (to the day!) that I started on my first AGS project - and joined the forums a couple weeks later. I'm still here, checking in a few times a month at least, just to see how things are and feast my eyes on some pixel eye candy. I hardly ever play anything these days anymore, I'm perpetually either too busy or too tired for an intellectual challenge of this kind - especially since my work these days is all about problem-solving anyway. But I've made some good friends here - and co-workers, too, who've helped me get my games done (coding tips, seriously amazing music, and the beta testing; props especially to Tabata!), and who asked for help in theirs (including my first voice-acting gigs!). The spirit of helping out just out of kindness helped me restore some faith in humanity. I owe the AGS engine a lot, too. It was my introduction to programming, and helped me greatly to learn the logic of code: the need for structure, the neatness. It made a life-long dream of making my own video game possible. Served me quite well as a video-editing software, too! Finally, a couple years down the road, the experience gathered in AGS helped me get into web design. It's a whole new world, and a beast of its own, but at some base level the environment seemed familiar - and really fun!

So if you ever feel like sticking to a genre that had its glory days in the early 90's is niche, know that there's a guy out there programming 3D objects/animations and vector graphics in pure HTML (and occasionally PHP loops) - in WordPad! What kinda troglodite freak does that? And that was back in June or so. You don't even wanna know what I'm doing right now! (wrong)

As for grievances:

Quote from: Babar on Wed 02/09/2020 08:12:12SO MANY YEARS I WAS DISILLUSIONED

All disillusionment pales in comparison at my horror at the discovery that this isn't really Chicky:

Years and years of gathering the guts to confess love - only to discover the object of my undying affection was in reality a Jemaine Clement lookalike  :~(

Privateer Puddin'

Quote from: Fitz on Wed 02/09/2020 09:06:43
All disillusionment pales in comparison at my horror at the discovery that this isn't really Chicky:


See also Eric (Mr Colossal)'s old avatar

Slasher

I just wish for everyone to get on.... We all say things and make mistakes at time... we're only human...

I myself have much patient's with newbies and always answer questions as best I can. However, some do not take good advice and the thread can end up in a row...

Khris is a great scripter who does not suffer fools gladly and gets annoyed when people won't listen... This is Khris.... He really is an ok guy...All in all I don't like seeing tensions rising..

Regarding freedom of speech  etc etc, then maybe a 'no holds barred' forum would cover this if people wanted it and it was allowed... One could let off steam...

I have been coming here for years and occasionally you do get an odd awkward... but that's life.

Whilst some forums may not be to everyone's cup of tea there is one for everyone...

Whist AGS is around, long live the forums...



Mandle

Okay, it seems initial question was answered.

We're all still here.

Now maybe we should just all fuck off and get back to AGSing.

Darth Mandarb

My work here is done...

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