New Dune film trailer

Started by KyriakosCH, Thu 10/09/2020 00:48:50

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Jack

Quote from: LimpingFish on Sat 12/09/2020 01:17:39
He's a fine Lynch Paul Atreides (that is, within the confines of Lynch's take), though perhaps, as noted countless times since 1984, not so much a fine Herbert Paul Atreides.

The Baron is the best example of this I think, quite different from the one in the book. In these cases they still manage to capture the essence of the character. In the case of Paul, the MacLaughlin/Lynch character brings something new, a kind of enthusiasm. Like the Mentat mantra, these are just things I like, so I don't really mind having them in the film. Especially not when there is the miniseries, which is a lot more true to the books in most respects.

That said, the book is much better than the film.

KyriakosCH

I liked the navigators in Lynch's film. They were far more impressive than in the tv series.
I really doubt the ones in the new films will be comparable.
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Snarky

Quote from: Jack on Fri 11/09/2020 22:55:56
And Snarky, I reject the idea that MacLachlan was anything but excellent in the Lynch version:


I feel this clip bolsters my point. The Litany voiceover, "THE PAIN!!!!!!" — like I said, the script and direction didn't do him many favors.

Quote from: Jack on Fri 11/09/2020 22:55:56
The Lynch version made several changes and added some things of his own, but in my opinion it managed to bring across the most important elements of Dune.

One thing I think the side-by-side (well, vertically stacked) video conveys very clearly is just how bizarrely claustrophobic Lynch's version is. I mean, it makes sense because it's Lynch, but Dune is a story that relies on massive, grand, epic scope, and yet Lynch manages to make it look cramped even on huge sets, or when shooting in the desert.

Quote from: Jack on Fri 11/09/2020 22:55:56how can you speak ill of a film that showed Gurney going to war with a pug in his jacket? The litany of the (twisted) mentat, or a medical device that involves a mouse strapped to a hairless cat? It's magnificent. This weird and deep film got me into the Dune universe.

Weird it certainly is. I'm not so sure about deep. Those things you mention are fine ideas in themselves, but I really don't think they come together into a coherent whole, the way the weirdness and jarring changes in tone do in Lynch's best projects.

But definitely, it's not a total misfire, even if as a whole I'd say it's... dull. The Guild Navigator and sandworm creature designs are brilliant, there are a number of beautiful costumes (though the whole thing looks a bit too 19th-century to me), and some nice bits of dialogue here and there—several of which have become more quoted than the actual book.

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sat 12/09/2020 07:37:37
I liked the navigators in Lynch's film. They were far more impressive than in the tv series.
I really doubt the ones in the new films will be comparable.

This is the sort of thing that really rubs me the wrong way. You're preemptively criticizing designs you have not seen, which may or may not appear in a movie (Dune Part II) that has not been made yet, because you expect they won't live up to your expectations. (roll)

VampireWombat

#23
I was going to join in on the first day, but didn't due to the expired certificate...

My first introduction to Dune was watching the Alan Smithee version of the movie on the Scifi Channel with my older brother. I've never actually seen the theatrical cut. I have read all of the original books and even the first 3 prequels and the one sequel meant to tie things up. I've also seen the miniseries several times. And I've played the game quite a few times.

I like a lot of the Lynch movie. Especially the costumes and actor choices for most characters. But Ian McNiece definitely was the better Baron. But yeah, Lynch definitely did some things to make it bad. Like the weirding modules, which were only okay because of how they worked in the game...

I'm still not sure about the guy chosen for Paul in the new movie. His voice is just wrong to me. Sounds more like a wimpy kid than someone who was raised by a Bene Gesserit.

But pretty much any other thoughts have been covered by others.

LimpingFish

Well, that was interesting. On Snarky's recommendation, I watched the "Spicediver" fan-edit of Lynch's Dune. Then I immediately watched the theatrical version. Then I had a bit of a lie down.

After a while, thoughts began to form...

  • I liked the alternate ending.
  • I wasn't sold on the "Book" and quote intersticials of the fan-edit (knowing nothing of the context of what was being quoted). But...
  • I liked what the fan-edit attempted with the inclusion of new "filmbooks", even if they where really just somewhat unrelated world-building.
  • I think some of the scenes actually work better with the rushed editing of the theatrical version (the initial arrival of the navigator, and it's subsequent dialogue, for example). But...
  • Some scenes really should have been included in the theatrical edit (the meeting after the assassination attempt on Paul, the death of Thufir Hawat, the Water of Life scenes, perhaps the Jamis/Paul duel, though that kind of comes out of nowhere).
  • The movie suffers overall from some very poor optical matting/compositing (especially during the end battle).
  • The basic plot actually makes sense (in the theatrical version), even if it asks the viewer to make a lot of narrative jumps themselves while providing little in the way of anchor points.
  • If these Harkonnens are the wrong sort of Harkonnens, then I don't want to be right.
  • It really is a beautiful film, regardless of edit.

Overall, I think that had the theatrical version been allowed to be fifteen or twenty minutes longer, it would have helped a lot, regardless of source faithfulness.



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Jack

The Baron in the book is not so over the top, but far more perverse. The actor still managed to bring some of this into his performance.

heltenjon

#26
The local newspapers are writing about this trailer today. It looks like a mountain from my area, Kinnaklova, is digitized into the landscape of Caladan two places in the trailer. (It looks like a mountain cleft in two. Easily found by Google if someone's curious.)  :-D

Edit: It's at 0:34 and 1.02.

KyriakosCH

At least they aren't filming the next book(s). Children of Dune and Dune Messiah seem to have a trash plot - afaik the (second part of the) 2000 miniseries stayed faithful to that plot, and it was sleep-inducing.
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Snarky

#28
Quote from: heltenjon on Mon 14/09/2020 09:22:46
The local newspapers are writing about this trailer today. It looks like a mountain from my area, Kinnaklova, is digitized into the landscape of Caladan two places in the trailer. (It looks like a mountain cleft in two. Easily found by Google if someone's curious.)  :-D

Yeah, they filmed the Caladan exteriors around Vestlandet in Norway. Here's another location seen in the trailers, from Stadlandet a bit further north.

Also, Funcom (based in Oslo; once upon a time the studio behind The Longest Journey, though more recently they've focused on MMOs) is working on making at least one Dune computer game.

Quote from: LimpingFish on Sun 13/09/2020 23:13:52
Well, that was interesting. On Snarky's recommendation, I watched the "Spicediver" fan-edit of Lynch's Dune. Then I immediately watched the theatrical version. Then I had a bit of a lie down.

Cool!

Quote from: LimpingFish on Sun 13/09/2020 23:13:52
  • I wasn't sold on the "Book" and quote intersticials of the fan-edit (knowing nothing of the context of what was being quoted). But...

Given that the film is so long in this cut, I quite liked the idea of breaking it up into sections with separate title cards. It's a device that isn't much used in modern cinema (I guess the most famous example that comes to mind is 2001: A Space Odyssey; though, doesn't Tarantino use variations on it sometimes?), but that I think is due for a comeback.

(It also mirrors the novel, which is divided into three "books" and uses epigraphs to introduce each chapter. Not that that's something that should necessarily be carried over into film, and Irulan's intro is already a decent adaptation of the idea.)

As I said, I don't like the specific quotes used.

Quote from: LimpingFish on Sun 13/09/2020 23:13:52
  • I liked what the fan-edit attempted with the inclusion of new "filmbooks", even if they where really just somewhat unrelated world-building.
  • I think some of the scenes actually work better with the rushed editing of the theatrical version (the initial arrival of the navigator, and it's subsequent dialogue, for example). But...

The fanedit probably leans a bit too much towards using as much as possible, including some scenes/extended scenes that are not strictly necessary, at the expense of pacing. It's a common pitfall of "extended editions"â€"IMO the LOTR director's cuts suffer from the same problem.

That said, I still think the fanedit pacing is better overall, if only because it cuts most of those interminable shots of actors standing around looking sheepish while exposition or their thoughts are explained in voiceover.

Quote from: LimpingFish on Sun 13/09/2020 23:13:52
  • The basic plot actually makes sense (in the theatrical version), even if it asks the viewer to make a lot of narrative jumps themselves while providing little in the way of anchor points.

Yeah, the plot itself is not particularly complicated. I think the confusing part is the universe, with its context for the plot, and therefore the motivations of the different factionsâ€"as well as the vocabulary. For example, it is quite hard to understand Reverend Mother Mohiam's role, loyalties and motivation, and the explanation that she is searching for the "Kwisatz Haderach" doesn't make it much clearer. Notoriously, in some cinema screenings audiences were given a handout to explain the unfamiliar terminology. (Adapted from the Terminology provided in the novel; that sort of thing can work in a book, though many readers still find it baffling, but how the hell were people supposed to use it in a darkened theater while trying to follow along with the movie?) "Go see Dune, there's homework!" doesn't strike me as the best marketing strategy. OTOH, the licensed merchandising for the movie is absolutely hilarious.

That's probably why there's so much focus on "unrelated worldbuilding," and one of the reasons why the book long had a reputation for being unadaptable.

Mandle

Quote from: Snarky on Mon 14/09/2020 15:50:38
That's probably why there's so much focus on "unrelated worldbuilding," and one of the reasons why the book long had a reputation for being unadaptable.

They also said that another book was unfilmable until Peter Jackson said "Hold my pint!"

(They come in pints?!)

lorenzo

Quote from: Mandle on Mon 14/09/2020 16:09:05
They also said that another book was unfilmable until Peter Jackson said "Hold my pint!"
Yes. And that is why Bad Taste, while being a masterpiece, is nowhere near as touching and profound as the book it's based on.

Snarky

Quote from: lorenzo on Mon 14/09/2020 16:52:07
Quote from: Mandle on Mon 14/09/2020 16:09:05
They also said that another book was unfilmable until Peter Jackson said "Hold my pint!"
Yes. And that is why Bad Taste, while being a masterpiece, is nowhere near as touching and profound as the book it's based on.

Sometimes I wish this forum had a "like" button for posts.

KyriakosCH

This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Mandle

#33
Quote from: Snarky on Mon 14/09/2020 17:37:52
Quote from: lorenzo on Mon 14/09/2020 16:52:07
Quote from: Mandle on Mon 14/09/2020 16:09:05
They also said that another book was unfilmable until Peter Jackson said "Hold my pint!"
Yes. And that is why Bad Taste, while being a masterpiece, is nowhere near as touching and profound as the book it's based on.

Sometimes I wish this forum had a "like" button for posts.

We'll have to make do with  (laugh) (laugh) (laugh) (laugh) (laugh)

(Also, I totally read lorenzo's comment in The Cinema Snob's voice)

LimpingFish

Quote from: Snarky on Mon 14/09/2020 15:50:38
Yeah, the plot itself is not particularly complicated. I think the confusing part is the universe, with its context for the plot, and therefore the motivations of the different factionsâ€"as well as the vocabulary..

True, and you can see the screenplay's attempts to overtly address that in some of the deleted scenes and in Princess Irulan's voice-over. And there are certainly a number of terms and concepts that the theatrical version puts out there with zero explanation (the "Landsraad" for instance). Having said that, an initial viewing of the theatrical version doesn't necessarily have to end in complete bewilderment, if the viewer pays (admittedly a lot of) attention, or accepts some things at face value (Mentats, heart-plugs, etc) with little in the way of explanation.

Quote from: Snarky on Mon 14/09/2020 15:50:38
OTOH, the licensed merchandising for the movie is absolutely hilarious.

I remember trading Dune stickers in school, trying to fill this:


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Crimson Wizard

#35
I am not certain about details anymore as it's been too long, but there was this Bene Gesserite line in the story which seems to be missing in the film (?), and I noticed it is often ignored when people talk about "Dune" in general.

If i remember correctly, the whole prophecy of messiah on Dune was actually their doing, they passed it into natives of the Dune through their agent(s) centuries before, and wanted to use this for their own purposes. This constructed prophecy was "stolen" and utilized by Paul and maybe was the main reason of his succeess. I find this side of the story interesting as it illustrates the ways an exterior political power may manipulate other nations by installing ideas into them, which they later regard as their own.

May be a bit far fetched, but I recall reading that one of the Frank Herbert's inspirations for "Dune" was the story of "Lawrence of Arabia", which on one side was the story of a foreigner who integrated into Arab society, but on the other side was the story of a British spy provoking them against the common enemy (Ottoman empire during WW1) for the benefit of his own country.


PS. Funnily and curiously, this also reminds me a story of "Morrowind" game, where the Empire used some random character who matched description from prophecy and made him/her infiltrate into native society in Morrowind, in order to thwart the plans of a "bad guy". One could argue whether this happened because the prophecy was true, or because someone made the prophecy true.

KyriakosCH

Not sure if it was mentioned here (am following a couple of threads on this elsewhere) but they changed the jihad to crusade.
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milkanannan

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Fri 11/09/2020 18:38:25
2020 vs 1984

https://youtu.be/CcZPZGq3Zy8

That's amazing (laugh)

I read the first book ('Dune') and watched Lynch's version in my teens (20+ years ago), and I remember thinking the movie did a good job of cherry picking from the book. However, the resulting movie was essentially a Dune speed run and doesn't capture a lot of the relentless, slow, hot struggles of desert life, which to me was key to the entire atmosphere of Dune.

The new movie looks kind of cool in some ways, but again (maybe its the colour) I don't really get the feeling Arakis is a proper unforgiving desert. Actually looks kind of pleasant!  (laugh)



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