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Author Topic: Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?  (Read 11897 times)

MillsJROSS

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #20 on: 20 Jun 2003, 05:17 »
Music theory gives someone tools in which they can draw their creativity. I'd agree that it isn't needed, but I think it can help a composer. It's like writing a book, it's good to know all the grammatical rules. Does this mean that a grammatically incorrect author can not have a succesful book? No, it just is a tool that helps structure thier work.

-MillsJROSS

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #21 on: 20 Jun 2003, 12:06 »
It's like writing a book, it's good to know all the grammatical rules. Does this mean that a grammatically incorrect author can not have a succesful book? No, it just is a tool that helps structure thier work.

Very good analogy. The claim that knowledge of music theory and composition hurts one's creativity is, I'd say, just a big myth. It wouldn't be too different to claim that an understanding of how to handle a brush and mix oil paints hurts the creativity of a painter.

Most of the people (ordinary people--not composers--but the kind of people who enjoy 'classical' music) to whom I've shown some of my favourites of Bach's fugues, particularly number 2 and 10 from The Well-Tempered Clavier I, think they're very beautiful, and even describe them as 'playful'. However, if one is to go by the claim that music theory hurts creativity, one would expect these two (2 and 10) to be anything but playful. If you analyze these fugues, and indeed any of Bach's fugues, you notice that the fugal technique used is very strict, even, some would say, mechanical. And, despite this, they manage to be colourful, vibrant and expressive. Coincidence?

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #22 on: 21 Jun 2003, 01:18 »
Grammatical skills don't have any effect on the creativity or the story structure of a novel.
I just think a lot of musical theory jargon is superfluous. I prefer to listen rather than study. I prefer to let my instinct play the biggest part of composing music. And most of all, I like to throw random things in. If it sounds good, I'll keep it in. Expirementing and composing by my own rules just feels so much more appealing than have a professor tell me how to do it. No, I'd rather go by the collective examples of all my favorite bands and whatever comes to my mind. But it's not like improvized or anything. I'll spend hours upon hours on one song. So by the end, there is a structure to the song, but as far as I know it didn't exist before I created the song.
By the way, the great composers didn't always follow musical theory-- they often created it.

Fuzzpilz

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #23 on: 21 Jun 2003, 11:31 »
Personally, I don't think the "grammatical rules" analogy works. Music theory isn't a Big Book Of Rules that says "YOU HAVE TO DO IT THIS WAY OR YOU WILL DIE!!1". It's just assigning names to the things people like Trapezoid prefer to learn by experience, which makes it easier to talk about them to others.

(Also: this discussion reminds me of the fact that wherever I go, many people seem to hate "artsy" music. Why is this? I really, really don't like using such a trite and arrogant phrase, but my impression is that they don't get it. Discuss. Or don't.)

(edit: to clarify, I don't mean inability to enjoy/appreciate it, I have no problems with that)
« Last Edit: 21 Jun 2003, 13:34 by Fuzzpilz »

Bob The Hun

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #24 on: 21 Jun 2003, 22:03 »
I have something that I could have entered, but it has a piano in it.
Blast! Foiled again!

MillsJROSS

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #25 on: 22 Jun 2003, 04:21 »
How isn't the "grammatical rules," a perfect analogy? All the grammtical rules represent are certain norms. A sentence isn't a sentence without a verb and noun. It's just a definition of what should be used. Just like musical conventions. Now just because you don't follow these set rules, doesn't mean your not making music. Just like if you wrote something that grammatically not supposed to be done, it's still literature. Then why should one learn these rules?

In literature we need to understand what we are reading, thus grammar is used. If a person writes without knowing anything about grammar means that whatever message they are trying to get across, might not be interpreted. Confusion will ensue. It's still literature, as we said, but it's message is obscured. It is only after one has learned this rules reasonable, can one break them so that the reader can still understand what is going on, even though it might be breaking several guidlines.

It's the same with music. There are certain norms one expects from music. Now if you just go into making music without knowing anything, you don't know what you'll get. It'll be unique, yes. And it'll still be music. But by knowing what is acceptable, one is then able to break into other areas, while still pleasing the audience.

Now pleasing the audience isn't everything, it's good to know what tools you can use to enhance your music abilities. It's not like it's a handicap.

However, I do agree that some of music theory is superfluos. This doesn't mean that all of it is.

Listening to music is a way to pick up on these guidlines. Just like by become an avid reader one picks up a stronger vocabulary, and a better sense of rules. So listening to music does teach the listener something, no matter what they think of music theory.

-MillsJROSS

Fuzzpilz

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #26 on: 22 Jun 2003, 10:18 »
On second thought, you're right. I was interpreting the analogy a little too tightly, I think.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #27 on: 23 Jun 2003, 07:18 »
Ok, sorry, I was away for a little bit. You guys can still enter if you want. There's no way this competition can advance if nobody enters.

And someone asked a question about adding a flat 6th or something: go ahead, it doesn't have to strictly conform to that guideline.

Ok, and now to go on to the discussion, might I bring up "The Rite of Spring" as an example (you know I really think I talk about this piece too much). Well, I wouldn't exactly say it "sounds good" much of the time, but that's not the point of music. I'm acutally surprised nobody has mentioned this, but music is expression. The Rite of Spring portrays what is intended brilliantly, but a lot of people don't like it because it doesn't "sound good". If you look at music that way it loses all meaning besides the superficial consonance that people like to hear. And that's all I have to say about that.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #28 on: 29 Jun 2003, 18:34 »
I was writing something in response to this little debatette, but MSIE crashed before I could post it. And I'm not going to write it again unless someone comes up with something new for me to comment on. ;) MillsJROSS' post summarizes what I was going to write. 'Nother reason not to write it.

Aaanyway, I'm in. The competition. Got a little peice to enter, too. A canon for three bagpipes (not Great Highlands--although that's completely possible--but rather some medieval model or, the type I play, Swedish) which I could try to record if someone's interested. If no one is, I won't. So... Are you?

MillsJROSS

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #29 on: 30 Jun 2003, 05:35 »
I'm interested in anything anyone has to make. Go for it, if not for us...it's always enjoyable doing it for yourself.

-MillsJROSS

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #30 on: 30 Jun 2003, 08:24 »
I can't believe this is still going on... It's almost July for crying out loud! Finish it up and start a new, interesting one!

Fuzzpilz

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #31 on: 30 Jun 2003, 16:53 »
This *is* interesting, but I'm no good at imitating real instruments, and I dislike General MIDI far too much to work with that.

SSH

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - May ?
« Reply #32 on: 30 Jun 2003, 17:45 »
(Also: this discussion reminds me of the fact that wherever I go, many people seem to hate "artsy" music. Why is this? I really, really don't like using such a trite and arrogant phrase, but my impression is that they don't get it. Discuss. Or don't.)

Because it's rubbish? On ClassicFM TV that's recently appeared on our Sky Digital, they don't have many Classical pieces with videos, so every other video is Bond or Charlotte Church, but every now and then (too often!) they stick in one of Philip Glass's Metamorphasis 3 (or some number). I hate it! I hate Phillip Glass's music. It's terrible. How can anyone enjoy that rubbish? I notice that he made it a bit more accessible for that Russell Crowe movie he did the soundtrack for, but I think he also did The Cook, The Thief, His wife and her lover and that was awful too.

For those of you that haven't heard Philip Glass "music" imagine a single tone being played over again and again, changing pithcmaybe every 8 bars... dada dahhhhh da dadada dahhhh da....

AAARRRGGGGHHH!

Sorry for the rant, folks!  :-\

scotch

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #33 on: 30 Jun 2003, 18:28 »
Can't the tune contest just have a theme, or a setting, or a description of where it'd be used in a game like the other contests ._.

I don't think I've understood a single one of the tune contest rules, and yet I have understood every single one of the graphics contest rules since they don't go sticking in things like must use x shading technique with y perspective rule, which allows beginners to enter.. doesn't stop more experienced artists using those things if they want.

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #34 on: 30 Jun 2003, 19:29 »
I agree completely, Scotch. I would never limit myself by saying 'I have to create this piece in the dorian mode'; instead I might say 'write something for a medieval scene. And I know I've just said exactly what you have but I agree that totally :P

Also gives a chance for poor souls like Trapezoid who think it's beneath them to learn theory :P:P

Fuzzpilz

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #35 on: 30 Jun 2003, 20:02 »
SSH, see, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I must admit that I'm unfamiliar with Phillip Glass's work, so I can't talk to you about him in particular, but the problem is that people seem unwilling or unable to accept the existence of ways of appreciating or enjoying a work of art (this applies to any medium, not only to music) that differ from their own.

c.leksutin

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #36 on: 30 Jun 2003, 21:14 »
can we finish this up before summer is over? this is a bit rediculus, everyone else got what? one? two weeks? tops...   we can DEBATE the merits of music theory in gen-gen guys.



C.

Trapezoid

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Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #37 on: 30 Jun 2003, 21:26 »
Fuzzpilz, I don't think it's below me to learn musical theory, just to adhere to any. :) Which is basically what you said about the hypothetical medieval piece.
Technical limits are not good for the music competitions. I'd prefer if the rules were more along the lines of creativity. Something like the previous contest where we had to make a theme for a body part. Ok, so I won that one :) but the other entries were great and very creative.
There was another contest that involved composing a peice in modal dorian something or other-- I forget, but I didn't enter because of the rules. And all the entries were rather... forgettable...  :-\
So whoever chooses the next comp's rules, make 'em good!

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #38 on: 01 Jul 2003, 18:53 »
Next competition rules: (according to me)

You can compose any style of music, but are limited to these instruments:
1. Electric Bass
2. Bassoon
3. Banjo
4. Qu Di  (chinese flute)

Actully this would probably sound pretty nice.

BTW, what do you mean by modal? Technically all scales are modal.
« Last Edit: 01 Jul 2003, 18:56 by Geoffkhan »

Re:Tune Contest, May 3rd - June ?
« Reply #39 on: 01 Jul 2003, 18:55 »
No it wouldn't, the bassoon and the bass would muddy each other up, and there wouldn't be any notes around the middle register :P