Author Topic: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination  (Read 15269 times)

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #100 on: 22 Jan 2021, 18:21 »
Quote
Be excellent to each other

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #101 on: 22 Jan 2021, 18:44 »
It might have started off as analyzing media, Blondbraid, but it quickly descended into a no holds barred contest between you, and wham, mainly
revolving around sexism.  The Covid19 reference was to try and put things in perspective. Not all Women are perfect. There have been female
murderers, women who ill treat their children, and those who beat their husbands. So, much the same as men who aren't perfect, either. Thats
equality  :)

One of the benefits of being a woman is that you don't get your nostrils full of hair, which you have to burn out with a lighter  8-0
 



Ali

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #102 on: 22 Jan 2021, 18:56 »
But it's not off-topic to discuss sexism in a thread about sexism in the media, is it?

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #103 on: 22 Jan 2021, 21:24 »
No it's not, Ali. However, if you read through the replies to TheFrighters first post, they have very little bearing on the subject matter.
Going by a later post, from him, it seems he was surprised at the reaction. When it gets into the realms of who should do the housework etc.
it has nothing to do with the main topic. As I said in an earlier post it would be nice if we could all just get on with one another  :)


 

BarbWire

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #104 on: 22 Jan 2021, 21:28 »
morganw, my thoughts exactly. Let's follow Bill and Ted's mantra and "Party on, dudes" :-D
« Last Edit: 22 Jan 2021, 21:56 by BarbWire »

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #105 on: 22 Jan 2021, 22:39 »
Careful with the words, BarbWire. Keep being sensible like that and the torches and pitchforks might come your way soon!  :-D
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole.

Ali

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #106 on: 22 Jan 2021, 23:24 »
No it's not, Ali. However, if you read through the replies to TheFrighters first post, they have very little bearing on the subject matter.
Going by a later post, from him, it seems he was surprised at the reaction. When it gets into the realms of who should do the housework etc.
it has nothing to do with the main topic. As I said in an earlier post it would be nice if we could all just get on with one another  :)

Are you being serious? Because I don't see how you could honestly disagree that sexism is relevant to the topic of sexism in the media?

I also think it would be nice if we could get along and have an interesting conversation about the Bechdel test. From my point of view, what's made that difficult is people who seem to be uncomfortable with media criticism in general, or otherwise determined to minimise sexism.
« Last Edit: 22 Jan 2021, 23:26 by Ali »

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #107 on: 22 Jan 2021, 23:47 »
I also think it would be nice if we could get along and have an interesting conversation about the Bechdel test. From my point of view, what's made that difficult is people who seem to be uncomfortable with media criticism in general, or otherwise determined to minimise sexism.
Indeed, I thought this thread was perfectly decent until creepy evo-psych crap and alt-right rhetoric painting sexism as biological was brought up.


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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #108 on: 23 Jan 2021, 02:28 »
Just a heads up to say that General Discussion doesn't have a main moderator, and is instead open to all moderators to moderate. As such, I'm going to offer my own opinion on this thread.

We have somewhat drifted from the original intent of the thread, being as it was a question about the Bechdel test (and similar) and how it pertains to the media we consume. We seem to have entered into a general, and rather limiting (imho), argument about gender; one that likely won't result in either side changing their core belief system. There is a constructive debate to be had, but debates aren't about shouting the loudest, nor about expressing our disgust with the opposing viewpoint. Once we reach that point, we've may as well be screaming into a hurricane.

As a moderator, I will remind people that as soon as we enter into aggressive/personal insults (regardless of position), or posts that are intended to simply provoke, action will be taken. There is a way to disagree with someone that doesn't involve belittling that person, or their beliefs, regardless of how passionate (or right) you feel in your disagreement.
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BarbWire

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #109 on: 23 Jan 2021, 09:07 »
You could be right Wham. I'm just slipping into my armour now  :)

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #110 on: 23 Jan 2021, 09:08 »
You are right LimpingFish. I fell sorry for all this.

No it's not, Ali. However, if you read through the replies to TheFrighters first post, they have very little bearing on the subject matter.
Going by a later post, from him, it seems he was surprised at the reaction. When it gets into the realms of who should do the housework etc.
it has nothing to do with the main topic. As I said in an earlier post it would be nice if we could all just get on with one another  :)


Thanks, BarbWires!  :-D

_

BarbWire

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #111 on: 23 Jan 2021, 09:13 »

Thank God for LimpingFish.  You have said everything I was trying to say, but evidently much more succinctly.
Also, you have authority as a moderator, which does help.  :-D

BarbWire

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #112 on: 23 Jan 2021, 09:20 »

You're welcome, TheFrighter. There is no need to be sorry., because you did nothing wrong.
I shall retreat into the background now and say no more on the subject.  :)

Ali

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #113 on: 23 Jan 2021, 15:29 »
As a moderator, I will remind people that as soon as we enter into aggressive/personal insults (regardless of position), or posts that are intended to simply provoke, action will be taken. There is a way to disagree with someone that doesn't involve belittling that person, or their beliefs, regardless of how passionate (or right) you feel in your disagreement.

It certainly wasn't my intention to provoke or belittle anyone. In the spirit of debate, I'll address TheFrighter's original question:

I think the Bechdel Test, like any critical tool, can be very useful as long as it isn't applied with a pedantic rigidity. What I find interesting about it is that it's a neat little way of testing how rounded the female characters in a story are. Do they have their own interests and concerns, or are they there to serve a male character's narrative arc? As Crimson Wizard said, I think similar tests are instructive in different contexts. Even in science fiction, how frequently do we see two aliens talking about something that doesn't involve humans? Or in Hollywood, two non-Americans speaking about something that doesn't involve Americans. It draws attention to the way even self-consciously progressive shows like Star Trek implicitly place certain people at the centre of the universe.

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #114 on: 23 Jan 2021, 17:46 »
If everyone else whish to leave the arguing behind, I'm ready to do so too.
Or in Hollywood, two non-Americans speaking about something that doesn't involve Americans. It draws attention to the way even self-consciously progressive shows like Star Trek implicitly place certain people at the centre of the universe.
Indeed, I remember somebody pointing out that several "Oscar-bait" films, despite trying to show racism is wrong, like The Green mile, still failed to show people of color talk to each other about something that wasn't a white person.


Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #115 on: 23 Jan 2021, 18:28 »
Indeed, I remember somebody pointing out that several "Oscar-bait" films, despite trying to show racism is wrong, like The Green mile, still failed to show people of color talk to each other about something that wasn't a white person.

At least in The Green Mile, you also have white people talking together about a black person.  (laugh) Like you said earlier in the thread, these rules aren't really rules and may be broken if that's how the story can be told in the best manner. I haven't seen The Green Mile more than once, so I cannot comment on the possibilites of improvement, but it's clearly nowhere near being a racist movie. In other Stephen King adaptations, they have occasionally cast a black actor playing someone who was white in the book, changing absolutely nothing in the dialogue or the way the character is portrayed. I can hear them arguing..."Yes, he was white in the book, but we can get Morgan Freeman! Morgan Freeman wants to play him!"  (laugh)

I remember watching a Star Wars film, I _think_ it might have been the first of the prequels. It occurred to me that they tried to cater to everyone: There were white male heroes, sure, but also women and black people. (I think there were also Asians, but I can't recall for sure.) And I remember thinking that they tried to give every possible audience member someone to identify with. And if you make your living selling action figures and t-shirts, that's undoubtedly a smart move. If there's some equality gained by it, all the better, but I felt that the real motive probably was profit.
« Last Edit: 24 Jan 2021, 01:21 by LimpingFish »

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #116 on: 23 Jan 2021, 20:00 »
Not directly related, but I remember in one of the Knights of the Old republic games, one of the first missions/levels had you (a bunch of jedis) in an apartment complex on some random planet. At one point, one of the jedi was discussing local rebels who were attacking the apartment or something, and referred to them as "aliens".
I thought that was pretty funny. Humans gonna hume, and even the Jedi can't help being subliminally racist.
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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #117 on: 23 Jan 2021, 21:41 »
Not directly related, but I remember in one of the Knights of the Old republic games, one of the first missions/levels had you (a bunch of jedis) in an apartment complex on some random planet. At one point, one of the jedi was discussing local rebels who were attacking the apartment or something, and referred to them as "aliens".
I thought that was pretty funny. Humans gonna hume, and even the Jedi can't help being subliminally racist.
(laugh) (laugh)
You know, this is in a Galaxy far away, a long time ago...so maybe the term "alien" was neutral then? A la how the terms "negro", "colored", "black" and "afroamerican" have shifted in how they are perceived. A jedi of today would say "unantropomorphic". No wait, that's just as bad. "Insectoid", perhaps? It's really difficult to find a neutral term.

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #118 on: 24 Jan 2021, 01:29 »
It certainly wasn't my intention to provoke or belittle anyone.

Understood. I was just speaking generally, rather than towards any specific person. :)

Indeed, I remember somebody pointing out that several "Oscar-bait" films, despite trying to show racism is wrong, like The Green mile, still failed to show people of color talk to each other about something that wasn't a white person.

Yes, it seems to be a long standing belief in Hollywood than the ongoing struggles of black people are only palatable to general audiences when filtered through a white prism (eg. The Help, Hidden Figures, Green Book, etc).
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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #119 on: 24 Jan 2021, 21:14 »
Indeed, I remember somebody pointing out that several "Oscar-bait" films, despite trying to show racism is wrong, like The Green mile, still failed to show people of color talk to each other about something that wasn't a white person.

Yes, it seems to be a long standing belief in Hollywood than the ongoing struggles of black people are only palatable to general audiences when filtered through a white prism (eg. The Help, Hidden Figures, Green Book, etc).
Indeed, it's one thing when movies that only try to be middle-of-the-road entertainment follow trite conventions and fail to represent non-white people, but when films that really try hard to depict an important message against racism and prejudice yet still fail to show people of color as having any lives outside centering white people...  (wrong)

Probably the worst part of it is that I know several old people who'll happily gobble up these sort of cliched oscar-bait stories, yet dismiss Black Panther, a film which actually did have African persons talk about things that weren't white people, as just another stupid superhero movie because it didn't follow the film award formula of being a somber drama with sad violin music and consisting 90% of slow dialogues.