Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination

Started by TheFrighter, Sat 16/01/2021 17:44:12

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Ali

I heard (the writer) Antony Horowitz making the observation that Tintin was much less well characterised (in terms of drawing) than Hergé's other characters, and expanding on the advantage of having a somewhat blank protagonist for children's stories. And, between Another World and Hitman there are a lot of blank canvas protagonists in games.

But it's interesting to note which characters get to be blank slate protagonists. We seem more ready to embrace it when those characters are the 'default' white, male, straight etc.

KyriakosCH

Usually the more specific traits a character has, the more people won't be identifying with them. There are ways to go around this, of course, but they mostly involve the character reacting to something more central (say Big Brother, in 1984; Winston is just a cog in the machine and a reaction to it; most readers would tend to react in a similar way)

There are also sub-types, such as the loner (in Lovecraft's works this is very typical). If you are a loner and a teen, chances are you will identify.
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TheFrighter

Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 16/01/2021 20:54:34
Spoiler
[close]

It come in my mind that the closest movie to pass the Flintenweiber test could be Paul Verhoeven's Starship Troopers ... but in the end is not a WWII movie.

_

Ali

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Fri 05/02/2021 17:20:01
Usually the more specific traits a character has, the more people won't be identifying with them. There are ways to go around this, of course, but they mostly involve the character reacting to something more central (say Big Brother, in 1984; Winston is just a cog in the machine and a reaction to it; most readers would tend to react in a similar way)

I appreciate that, but what I'm getting at is that "being a woman" or "being black" are seen as specific character traits, with which fewer people can identify. The white male protagonist is often treated as neutral and universal, which clearly reflects a social bias.

KyriakosCH

Quote from: Ali on Fri 05/02/2021 19:01:43
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Fri 05/02/2021 17:20:01
Usually the more specific traits a character has, the more people won't be identifying with them. There are ways to go around this, of course, but they mostly involve the character reacting to something more central (say Big Brother, in 1984; Winston is just a cog in the machine and a reaction to it; most readers would tend to react in a similar way)

I appreciate that, but what I'm getting at is that "being a woman" or "being black" are seen as specific character traits, with which fewer people can identify. The white male protagonist is often treated as neutral and universal, which clearly reflects a social bias.

Maybe this is so. I'd like to think that if the protagonist is black/female I'd just read the story the same way, as long as the writer presents them in a neutral manner (as with the generic male protagonist, who tends to be an avatar of the writer if they are male too anyway) :)

That said, I had no problem identifying with the (female) protagonist of The Yellow Wallpaper, by Perkins-Gilman. It is a great story.
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

heltenjon

I rarely identify myself with any character - that's not how I think. I can relate and try to understand them, but identification is not high on my list of needs. One of my favourite authors is Terry Pratchett, and I don't feel the need to "be" stumbling wizard Rincewind or hard-as-rocks witch Granny Weatherwax in any manner. But I enjoy their stories anyhow.

The original point in the thread is akin to Simone deBeauvoir's idea about women as "the other sex", stating that the norm is seen to be male. The easiest way to change this is to simply make stories about women or any other character trait not viewed as the norm. And the real reason why the norm holds up so well, is probably lazyness. There are some great stories told about brooding vigilantes with a troubled past, and then there are the copycats that are not so well written. For that matter, an arguably great character like Batman is considered great because there are good stories about him, but there are just as many stories that are terrible. But the success of Batman will then spawn similar characters that try to outdo the original in some way, like using guns, being more violent or any of the other boxes you could check. These other characters will most likely not be as interesting.

Blondbraid

Quote from: TheFrighter on Fri 05/02/2021 18:30:53
Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 16/01/2021 20:54:34
Spoiler
[close]

It come in my mind that the closest movie to pass the Flintenweiber test could be Paul Verhoeven's Starship Troopers ... but in the end is not a WWII movie.

_
Yeah, it's pretty much the only sci fi film I can think of that portrays 100% gender equality, with women with practical clothes in all kinds of societal positions and none of them being questioned for it,
compared to a great number of films and games that tries to portray a future world where race, gender and sexuality isn't an issue, yet either 90% of all characters in important roles are still white dudes,
or they have many female characters doing everything the guys do, but they have to do it in ridiculous fetish costumes, high heels, and a bunch of impractical gear that only serves to pander to straight men.
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Fri 05/02/2021 19:11:38
Quote from: Ali on Fri 05/02/2021 19:01:43
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Fri 05/02/2021 17:20:01
Usually the more specific traits a character has, the more people won't be identifying with them. There are ways to go around this, of course, but they mostly involve the character reacting to something more central (say Big Brother, in 1984; Winston is just a cog in the machine and a reaction to it; most readers would tend to react in a similar way)

I appreciate that, but what I'm getting at is that "being a woman" or "being black" are seen as specific character traits, with which fewer people can identify. The white male protagonist is often treated as neutral and universal, which clearly reflects a social bias.

Maybe this is so. I'd like to think that if the protagonist is black/female I'd just read the story the same way, as long as the writer presents them in a neutral manner (as with the generic male protagonist, who tends to be an avatar of the writer if they are male too anyway) :)

That said, I had no problem identifying with the (female) protagonist of The Yellow Wallpaper, by Perkins-Gilman. It is a great story.
Well, it seems a lot of straight white guys can empathize with women and minorities just fine if they want to, the problem is that so many media creators never treat them as characters that could be empathized with in the first place.

It really bothered me as a child in the 90s to see that all mainstream kid's movies at the time had male protagonists, and the story was always told from their point of view, the exception being the Disney princess movies, but the only Disney heroine I could really relate to was Mulan,
because she was the only female protagonist I could remember from my childhood who got to be goofy, get dirty and messed up, and had her own story that wasn't centered on romance.

The problem with the older Disney princesses is that they are more preoccupied with being "good role models" than relatable characters, but I could never relate to how Snow White and Cinderella just loved singing and wanting to marry a prince,
and most egregiously, how they loved doing housework, Cinderella even singing as she's forced by her abusive family to swab the floors on her knees.

(Though if the Song of the south, the Roustabout song from Dumbo and the black centaur from Fantasia is something to go by, Walt Disney seemingly had a habit of portraying oppressed people as being happy and singing whilst forced to do labor and being servants... :-\)
Quote from: heltenjon on Fri 05/02/2021 20:03:37
For that matter, an arguably great character like Batman is considered great because there are good stories about him, but there are just as many stories that are terrible. But the success of Batman will then spawn similar characters that try to outdo the original in some way, like using guns, being more violent or any of the other boxes you could check. These other characters will most likely not be as interesting.
I think a pretty apt illustration of the double standard is that when Batman and Robin bombed, executives decided it was simply because it was a badly made film and made a more serious reboot of Batman a short time later, but when Halle Berry's Catwoman flopped, Hollywood decided it was because audiences didn't want to see black or female superheroes, and it took decades before we got a female and a black superhero in Wonder Woman and Black Panther respectively, and they were both treated as a big political statement on equality when they came out.


Ali

Quote from: Blondbraid on Fri 05/02/2021 20:12:42
I think a pretty apt illustration of the double standard is that when Batman and Robin bombed, executives decided it was simply because it was a badly made film

I wonder if it's relevant that Joel Schumacher was gay, and Batman and Robin is very camp. It was also quite bad. But plenty of gritty, macho action movies bomb and we never come to conclusion that audiences just don't like them.

Like you say, no one watches a bad male comedian concludes that they don't like male comedy, but that often happens with female comedians. And it's a judgement that men and women make, and that is often made on behalf of audiences.

Crimson Wizard

#168
Quote from: Blondbraid on Fri 05/02/2021 20:12:42
It really bothered me as a child in the 90s to see that all mainstream kid's movies at the time had male protagonists, and the story was always told from their point of view, the exception being the Disney princess movies, but the only Disney heroine I could really relate to was Mulan,
because she was the only female protagonist I could remember from my childhood who got to be goofy, get dirty and messed up, and had her own story that wasn't centered on romance.

There also was "Xena Warrior Princess", but ofcourse it was much more dirty, messy and bloody compared to Disney standards :D.

KyriakosCH

I can't say if the norm for males was to actually like the action characters. I certainly didn't - I wouldn't identify with He-man or similar ^_^ I almost always supported the "evil" characters anyway, and was more interested in the japanimation of the era (not as much because I was a proto-hipster, but probably more due to my own megalomaniac ideas at the time).

This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

heltenjon

Quote from: Blondbraid on Fri 05/02/2021 20:12:42
I think a pretty apt illustration of the double standard is that when Batman and Robin bombed, executives decided it was simply because it was a badly made film and made a more serious reboot of Batman a short time later, but when Halle Berry's Catwoman flopped, Hollywood decided it was because audiences didn't want to see black or female superheroes, and it took decades before we got a female and a black superhero in Wonder Woman and Black Panther respectively, and they were both treated as a big political statement on equality when they came out.
That may well be the case. But I also believe that it was of importance that the Batman franchise already had some successful movies (and a lot of classic comics) before the Batman and Robin-flop. I don't remember much about the Halle Berry catwoman film, except that the character had some catlike powers and wasn't much like the comics character (who is a cat burglar). Halle Berry was a great Storm in the X-Men films, but sadly underused.

Now if only someone could make a movie about the Martha Washington graphic novel...

Blondbraid

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Fri 05/02/2021 20:42:48
Quote from: Blondbraid on Fri 05/02/2021 20:12:42
It really bothered me as a child in the 90s to see that all mainstream kid's movies at the time had male protagonists, and the story was always told from their point of view, the exception being the Disney princess movies, but the only Disney heroine I could really relate to was Mulan,
because she was the only female protagonist I could remember from my childhood who got to be goofy, get dirty and messed up, and had her own story that wasn't centered on romance.

There also was "Xena Warrior Princess", but ofcourse it was much more dirty, messy and bloody compared to Disney standards :D.
True that, though I was older when I started to watch Xena.  :)
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Fri 05/02/2021 20:49:03
I can't say if the norm for males was to actually like the action characters. I certainly didn't - I wouldn't identify with He-man or similar ^_^ I almost always supported the "evil" characters anyway, and was more interested in the japanimation of the era (not as much because I was a proto-hipster, but probably more due to my own megalomaniac ideas at the time).


I can't speak for what men think of the heroes they grew up with, though I know a lot of kids of both sexes identify with or cheer on cartoon villains, partially because it can be fun to rebel, but also, at least with Disney, they make the vilains much more expressive and varied than the heroes, they're allowed to be much more distinct and memorable when they aren't constrained by ideas of being handsome/pretty and "good role models".


KyriakosCH



Hmmmmmmm  :=

(from the game It Came from the Desert)
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

FormosaFalanster

Quote from: Ali on Fri 05/02/2021 16:51:00
And, between Another World and Hitman there are a lot of blank canvas protagonists in games.


I don't think Dr Lester (the main character in Another World) is a blank canvas. Just because he doesn't speak, doesn't mean he is not developed as a character. One of the greatest things about Another World is its capacity to use what I call "play don't tell" to convey its story through gameplay without any exposition. It is through the interactions in the game that you discover who Dr Lester is. The simple fact that he is introduced as a top scientist but is wearing a t-shirt and drives a sports car is meant to show you the character breaks the trope of scientists being either big nerds or old men. Coupled with the remote yet dishevelled location where his project happens, you can see him as an outcast in the scientific community. During the game you discover he is more resourceful than the average scientist, if only because he doesn't freak out in front of what happens. One moment that says a lot about Dr Lester's personality is when he is first confronted to the aliens who will capture him: the second they appear, he stands and raise his hands with a confident face, like he has notions of anthropology and knows how to display himself in a friendly and non-threatening manner to a civilisation who doesn't know him. Then he smiles crack. Etc etc, the game shows a well written character through the game and not through text.

I'd also challenge that Tintin was a blank canvas. Hergé wanted to express Tintin as a child-like and seemingly weak character who always win against big mean guys. In early albums, Tintin is portrayed as prodigiously strong despite being shorter than everyone else: in The Blue Lotus three huge thugs are sent to knock him out but he single-handled kick their asses instead. In later albums, the little guy outsmarts everyone. Hergé wanted to convey a message to readers that being a little boy was not going to be an obstacle to triumph from adversity. All of Tintin's counterparts in foreign countries are always portrayed the same way: Chang, arguably Tintin's dearest friend, is portrayed as shorter than any other Chinese person and wearing the most simple clothes when everyone else in the streets of Shanghai is wearing colourful attires. In Tintin in Tibet, the brave sherpah who will help Tintin save Chang similarly is portrayed with the most simple features. Hergé had a taste for humility and simplicity of character that he wanted to see win the day. That's why Haddock only becomes virtous and noble when he reaches down to Tintin's humility, otherwise he would only be an alcoholic failure, and that's why villains like Colonel Sponz or Rastapopoulos are always portrayed as sophisticated and colourful. Hergé in The Blue Lotus, inspired by his own interaction with a Chinese person, quotes Laozi urging you to "find the way", and finding the way implies going back to simplicity and humility, sincerity - a lot of Tintin is about that. It's more than a blank canvas.

Ali

Quote from: FormosaFalanster on Sat 06/02/2021 22:48:15
I don't think Dr Lester (the main character in Another World) is a blank canvas... I'd also challenge that Tintin was a blank canvas.

I'm sure you're right about Another World - I haven't played it and was extrapolating from what KyriakosCH said about it. I'm sure I misinterpreted it.

Regarding Tintin, Horowitz was saying that Tintin was visually less characterised, in terms of linework - simple, boyish, neutral. It's not a criticism of the character design or writing. Where does Tintin live? Who are his parents? It's not really important, just like we don't really care what George Stobbart (who might be a lawyer, but it doesn't really matter) was doing before he took a holiday to Paris. I would say being amiable, brave and quite strong are exactly the qualities that would make a somewhat blank character appealing.

KyriakosCH

Lester certainly learned how to cope with danger, after dying a few hundred times - with special animated sequences for each type of death  :=
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Snarky

Quote from: Ali on Sun 07/02/2021 00:59:00Where does Tintin live? Who are his parents? It's not really important

I don't disagree with the overall point, but where Tintin lives is fairly well established: in most stories he lives in an apartmentâ€"regularly shownâ€"in a city that is explicitly or implicitly identified as Brussels (though Hergé sometimes takes liberties with the geography, for example giving the city a port in The Crab with the Golden Claws). In the later stories he appears to have moved in with Haddock at the Château de Moulinsart (Marlinspike Hall) as a more or less permanent houseguest.

Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sat 06/02/2021 16:45:10


Hmmmmmmm  :=

(from the game It Came from the Desert)
Seems like a pretty apt (and cringey) example on how to alienate female players form the narrator.  (roll)

Meanwhile, compare to when the developers behind Remember me wanted their female protagonist to have a male love interest, and was for real met with this response from their publishers:
Quote"We had people tell us, 'You can't make a dude like the player kiss another dude in the game, that's going to feel awkward.'"
And so, while Remember me got to keep a female protagonist, they did remove any reference to any romantic feelings she may have had in the final game.


Blondbraid

Quote from: Snarky on Sun 07/02/2021 16:47:58
Quote from: Ali on Sun 07/02/2021 00:59:00Where does Tintin live? Who are his parents? It's not really important

I don't disagree with the overall point, but where Tintin lives is fairly well established: in most stories he lives in an apartmentâ€"regularly shownâ€"in a city that is explicitly or implicitly identified as Brussels (though Hergé sometimes takes liberties with the geography, for example giving the city a port in The Crab with the Golden Claws). In the later stories he appears to have moved in with Haddock at the Château de Moulinsart (Marlinspike Hall) as a more or less permanent houseguest.
Indeed, though I'd also argue a good way to tell how well defined a character is is asking weather you can tell something they do is out of character.

For example, with Tintin, if someone were to write him willfully bullying a kid, most would recognize it as vastly out of character because Tintin has always been portrayed as kind and willing to stand up for the weak and vulnerable.
Meanwhile, loads of video games star blank slates and amnesiacs because you can't break character if you have no character to begin with, and so it doesn't strike players as cognitive dissonance if they try to do a bunch of random stuff
playing with the game mechanics with their characters.


WHAM

Quote from: Blondbraid on Sun 07/02/2021 17:32:37
Seems like a pretty apt (and cringey) example on how to alienate female players form the narrator.  (roll)

I can see the cringe factor, sure, (I know from experience that, when waking up in a hospital, the sexiness of nurses is the last thing on your mind) but not really how this would alienate women any more than men. I hear the women I know regularly refer to other women as "lovely" or other variations of "hot", whether they be straight, bi or gay, so this off-hand remark of someone looking pretty doesn't seem all that gendered to me.
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