Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination

Started by TheFrighter, Sat 16/01/2021 17:44:12

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Babar

 := :=

Although even while making it, I realised that although I never played the game (so I can't tell if the nurse's loveliness was played for laughs or whether it was supposed to be subverted when she later turns into an insectoid alien or something), I don't even need to do the change to feel it is offputting and alienating. I mean, what exactly did the developers think of me?

Although one of the most memorable (for all the bad reasons) was the introduction of one of the characters in the grimdark sequel to the lovely Sands of Time game

I can't remember something that annoyed me more with how little the developers obviously thought of me. She was a major antagonist character (might have joined the protagonist at some point, I didn't play long enough to find out), and she was supposed to be this super bad-ass ( :tongue: ) warrior rogue woman.
The ultimate Professional Amateur

Now, with his very own game: Alien Time Zone

Blondbraid

Quote from: WHAM on Sun 07/02/2021 17:59:19
Quote from: Blondbraid on Sun 07/02/2021 17:32:37
Seems like a pretty apt (and cringey) example on how to alienate female players form the narrator.  (roll)

I can see the cringe factor, sure, (I know from experience that, when waking up in a hospital, the sexiness of nurses is the last thing on your mind) but not really how this would alienate women any more than men. I hear the women I know regularly refer to other women as "lovely" or other variations of "hot", whether they be straight, bi or gay, so this off-hand remark of someone looking pretty doesn't seem all that gendered to me.
Well, a straight woman will have a hard time empathizing with a man describing how much he's into girls, so when it's written in such a cringey manner that effect is multipled tenfold.

For example, I can appreciate a well written romance and in the case of Farah from Prince of Persia or Elena from Uncharted, I can empathize with the male character falling for them because they are presented as interesting characters in their own right,
but when it's just "Oooh, look a pretty lady", well, I can't relate to that and that just feels like cringe.

Babar really hit the nail on the head there!  (laugh)


KyriakosCH

Quote from: Blondbraid on Sun 07/02/2021 17:32:37
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sat 06/02/2021 16:45:10


Hmmmmmmm  :=

(from the game It Came from the Desert)
Seems like a pretty apt (and cringey) example on how to alienate female players form the narrator.  (roll)

Meanwhile, compare to when the developers behind Remember me wanted their female protagonist to have a male love interest, and was for real met with this response from their publishers:
Quote"We had people tell us, 'You can't make a dude like the player kiss another dude in the game, that's going to feel awkward.'"
And so, while Remember me got to keep a female protagonist, they did remove any reference to any romantic feelings she may have had in the final game.

They could have made her have a female love interest  (laugh)
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Honza

Quote from: Babar on Sun 07/02/2021 19:35:32
:= :=

Although even while making it, I realised that although I never played the game (so I can't tell if the nurse's loveliness was played for laughs or whether it was supposed to be subverted when she later turns into an insectoid alien or something), I don't even need to do the change to feel it is offputting and alienating. I mean, what exactly did the developers think of me?

:-D Good one!

Although women tend to be a little more sophisticated when it comes to drooling over medical staff ;)

[imgzoom]https://i.ibb.co/t8RPRwf/clooney.png[/imgzoom]

Blondbraid

Quote from: Honza on Sun 07/02/2021 20:26:48

:-D Good one!

Although women tend to be a little more sophisticated when it comes to drooling over medical staff ;)

[imgzoom]https://i.ibb.co/t8RPRwf/clooney.png[/imgzoom]
Yes and no, it's not that in general women are less attracted to bare abs than men are to revealing outfits on women, it's that women are more aware of how silly it would look if men wore such outfits to work with a straight face!  :P


TheFrighter

Quote from: Babar on Sun 07/02/2021 19:35:32

Although one of the most memorable (for all the bad reasons) was the introduction of one of the characters in the grimdark sequel to the lovely Sands of Time game

I can't remember something that annoyed me more with how little the developers obviously thought of me. She was a major antagonist character (might have joined the protagonist at some point, I didn't play long enough to find out), and she was supposed to be this super bad-ass ( :tongue: ) warrior rogue woman.

Uh! I never played this game, but this scene seems the most audacious in the games industry!  :-\

And obviusly a leather t-string is extremly unconfortable if you have to fight, so it's really gratuit.

_


WHAM

I think it's safe to say that pretty much all areas of the entertainment industry, including videogames, have done a pretty poor job at sensible outfits and appearances.
Then again, the name of the game is "entertainment", so it comes down to target audience and what entertains them. For a long time most mainstream videogames are aimed at the teenage market, where titillating ass and titty shots are a pretty surefire way to draw some attention, free publicity and easily distracted audiences.

As the saying goes: He is not a fool who offers to sell, the fool is the one who buys.
(Original finnish saying: "Ei se tyhmä ole joka myy, vaan se joka ostaa.")

But yeah, just like the clumsy gender representation and minority representation in popular media, representing the human body and its sexual aspects have always been something very few business enterprises do a good job of. One just has to keep in mind: they're not in the business of education, information or enlightening. They're in the business of making money by entertaining. And as even the most modern games have proven (see again a recent prime example in Cyberpunk 2077): sex sells.
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: The Night Falls, a community roleplaying game

Babar

Quote from: TheFrighter on Mon 08/02/2021 09:21:49
Uh! I never played this game, but this scene seems the most audacious in the games industry!  :-\

And obviusly a leather t-string is extremly unconfortable if you have to fight, so it's really gratuit.

_


Leather? It was made of metal!  :grin:
The ultimate Professional Amateur

Now, with his very own game: Alien Time Zone

Blondbraid

Regarding the whole "sex sells" idea, it only sell to some horny dudes, but it will alienate just as many women.

For example, I liked the first Metro 2033 game, and I looked forward to it's sequel, but when I read that there was going to be a mandatory cutscene where you saw the male protagonist have sex from a first-person view,
and the player would be encouraged to visit brothels and pay for lap dances, I immediately lost all interest and decided I do not want to play the game ever. Even Angry Joe pointed out the tone-deaf absurdity of it.

Meanwhile, when Final Fantasy released a character design for a male character in a revealing outfit, they immediately had to re-design it because they acknowledged that it made male players uncomfortable.
And there wasn't even any nudity or sex scenes, he was just wearing a tight outfit that was still less revealing than that of many female final fantasy characters. The double-standard is obvious.

Plus there's the whole bit about how it's scientifically proven objectification literally makes it harder for viewers to see women as human if there wasn't reason to hate it already.




KyriakosCH

Is it known what percentage of players are female by now?
Obviously in the old days it was negligible - I am sure it isn't negligible now, but possibly it's still a small minority  :(
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Babar

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 08/02/2021 12:34:50
Is it known what percentage of players are female by now?
Obviously in the old days it was negligible - I am sure it isn't negligible now, but possibly it's still a small minority  :(
I believe women now make a slight majority of all gamers (i.e. the populations match overall populations of women and men).
But that dodges the point that the whole "but we don't have an audience for that" argument is rubbish. If you only make games catered towards one specific demographic, that demographic will always be the one overrepresented in your audience. It isn't a one-way cause and effect, the cause is the cause.
The ultimate Professional Amateur

Now, with his very own game: Alien Time Zone

Honza

So just to be clear, the issue here isn't with objectification and sleaze, it's the objectification and sleaze being one-sided?

Imagine a world where for every game that exists now, a gender-swapped version (with t-strings turning into loincloths, cleavage into abs, and so on) is also available. Is everything ok in that world?

Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 08/02/2021 12:34:50
Is it known what percentage of players are female by now?
Obviously in the old days it was negligible - I am sure it isn't negligible now, but possibly it's still a small minority  :(
You ought to read this article on how games started out gender-neutral but became marketed as boy toys.
Quote from: Honza on Mon 08/02/2021 13:28:58
So just to be clear, the issue here isn't with objectification and sleaze, it's the objectification and sleaze being one-sided?

Imagine a world where for every game that exists now, a gender-swapped version (with t-strings turning into loincloths, cleavage into abs, and so on) is also available. Is everything ok in that world?
If you want my personal opinion, no, I don't want a world where men are equally objectified because treating humans like meat sucks.

However, as things are decidedly NOT equal today and so many men will defend degrading portraits of women without question, making gender-swapped counter examples of men in the same position
serves as a way to cast light on the double standard and and attempt to show straight men just how ridiculous much of the objectification is.


Honza

Quote from: Blondbraid on Mon 08/02/2021 13:42:15If you want my personal opinion, no, I don't want a world where men are equally objectified because treating humans like meat sucks.

However, as things are decidedly NOT equal today and so many men will defend degrading portraits of women without question, making gender-swapped counter examples of men in the same position
serves as a way to cast light on the double standard and and attempt to show straight men just how ridiculous much of the objectification is.

So when you wrote this,

Quote from: Blondbraid on Mon 08/02/2021 11:36:49
For example, I liked the first Metro 2033 game, and I looked forward to it's sequel, but when I read that there was going to be a mandatory cutscene where you saw the male protagonist have sex from a first-person view,
and the player would be encouraged to visit brothels and pay for lap dances, I immediately lost all interest and decided I do not want to play the game ever.

there are actually two different issues you take with the game? It's not wrong for a game to feature a POV sex scene, but you are annoyed that such scenes only cater to men and you never get to play one from a woman's perspective. Meanwhile, brothels and lap dances are just wrong and shouldn't exist, regardless of gender. Do I understand your perspective correctly?

KyriakosCH

#194
For the record, I am (obviously :) ) not in favor of presenting females as sex objects in games. I wouldn't mind if games present males as sex objects (I probably wouldn't be interested in those games ^_^ ). In various media it is usually the lazy (but often profitable or at least passable) option to replace the difficult parts (story/characters/writing) with something easy like having anime with large breasts. Those shows aren't taken seriously and (at least to me) are impossible to take seriously even if they happened to have a story to speak of  (laugh)

That said, I am not against presenting human sexuality in games. Seems pretty natural. I would have to suppose that male sexuality is rarer because traditionally boys were playing those games and they preffered Lara Croft ^_^

Btw, even the aforementioned Another World has some female nudity. Although it is alien women (I think there was no alien male nudity).
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Blondbraid

Quote from: Honza on Mon 08/02/2021 13:55:39
Quote from: Blondbraid on Mon 08/02/2021 13:42:15If you want my personal opinion, no, I don't want a world where men are equally objectified because treating humans like meat sucks.

However, as things are decidedly NOT equal today and so many men will defend degrading portraits of women without question, making gender-swapped counter examples of men in the same position
serves as a way to cast light on the double standard and and attempt to show straight men just how ridiculous much of the objectification is.

So when you wrote this,

Quote from: Blondbraid on Mon 08/02/2021 11:36:49
For example, I liked the first Metro 2033 game, and I looked forward to it's sequel, but when I read that there was going to be a mandatory cutscene where you saw the male protagonist have sex from a first-person view,
and the player would be encouraged to visit brothels and pay for lap dances, I immediately lost all interest and decided I do not want to play the game ever.

there are actually two different issues you take with the game? It's not wrong for a game to feature a POV sex scene, but you are annoyed that such scenes only cater to men and you never get to play one from a woman's perspective. Meanwhile, brothels and lap dances are just wrong and shouldn't exist, regardless of gender. Do I understand your perspective correctly?
Well, I'm not against all forms of sex scenes if the characters are portrayed respectfully, I thought Bioware made an OK job with the romances between crewmates in Mass Effect for example, and the sims series portray it as a natural part of romantic relationships for all parties involved, but from what I've seen of the Metro 2034 scenes, people complained that it came out of nowhere, and there weren't any women in the game who weren't sex objects.

As for brothels in games, I find it massively disturbing how many games will portray horrific worlds full of violence, slavery and oppression, yet still portray brothels ar harmless fun-houses filled with hot ladies who just love offering all kinds of services to strangers, despite in the real world, most people in prostitution face abuse and exploitation.


KyriakosCH

Prostitution is organized (also taxed) and legal in most european countries (although not all). It's not far-fetched to view it as another part of the world, and afaik most prostitutes do that difficult job because they want to get a considerable amount of money fast and then never look back.
Of course it is entirely different if you have illegal prostitution and trafficking rings...
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 08/02/2021 14:39:32
Prostitution is organized (also taxed) and legal in most european countries (although not all). It's not far-fetched to view it as another part of the world, and afaik most prostitutes do that difficult job because they want to get a considerable amount of money fast and then never look back.
Of course it is entirely different if you have illegal prostitution and trafficking rings...
1. Most of the video games I'm talking about do not take place in countries with a sound legal system and protections for the vulnerable, they explicitly take place in violent medieval societies or post-apocalyptic hellscapes.

2. Even today in the western world, there is a massive trafficking problem and most prostituted people are coerced into it, and about 90% would leave the sex trade if they could.
When it's this bad today, you can only imagine how horrible it must have been in historical times where no protections against stds or unwanted pregnancies existed and slavery was legal.


KyriakosCH

Medieval prostitution - and current illegal prostitution - most likely are/were terrible :)
I assume that being a legal prostitute is a better profession than similar ones: being a pornstar (again, if we assume it is not coerced) seems a lot worse a career decision, since a prostitute can always just leave the job and not look back (I think that the vast majority of legal prostitutes work in a different country, for this reason), but once a pornstar one is always known as a pornstar...

As for games, specifically, I don't know if prostitution makes sense there. If it is targeted at male teens, all kinds of wild ideas about sex will find a fanbase :)
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

BarbWire

Hi fellow agsers. 'Tis I BarbWire

I said, a while ago, that I would refrain from posting on this subject, but I just couldn't resist the temptation.

I've got a brilliant idea. Why don't we all stop playing games and watching movies (basically anything that gives us pleasure) and do
away with entertainment in general. This way there will be nothing to complain about  (laugh)

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