Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination

Started by TheFrighter, Sat 16/01/2021 17:44:12

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Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 08/02/2021 14:56:49
As for games, specifically, I don't know if prostitution makes sense there. If it is targeted at male teens, all kinds of wild ideas about sex will find a fanbase :)
Well, I personally wold say portraying prostitution in a dark medieval/post apocalyptic setting as fun and sexy makes about as much sense as if a WW2 game would portray a German POW camp as a wild summer camp full of fun and games.  (wrong)
Quote from: BarbWire on Mon 08/02/2021 15:02:05
Hi fellow agsers. 'Tis I BarbWire

I said, a while ago, that I would refrain from posting on this subject, but I just couldn't resist the temptation.

I've got a brilliant idea. Why don't we all stop playing games and watching movies (basically anything that gives us pleasure) and do
away with entertainment in general. This way there will be nothing to complain about  (laugh)

Then how about instead of trolling people in this forum, you go back to troll the traditional way and go sit under a bridge?


Crimson Wizard

#201
Quote from: Blondbraid on Mon 08/02/2021 14:32:22but from what I've seen of the Metro 2034 scenes, people complained that it came out of nowhere, and there weren't any women in the game who weren't sex objects.

I would agree that that scene in metro comes out of nowhere; and it actually kind of shocked me, not in sexual way, but rather as a very dumb and character and immersion breaking thing. To elaborate, it came right after two characters escape from what was practically a massive war crime location where lots of people died of a virus or were finished of by a "cleaning" team. They then are placed under a carantine, in one small room corner together, even though they are of separate genders and not related in any way. Latter alone looked pretty weird.


But I find the second statement unjust, there are alot of women in Metro series who are not sex objects, in fact I barely remember anything behind that infamous brothel scene. The brothel was 1 scene in 1 location, which may take around 20 seconds of player time if you don't stick around purposedly.

From the top of my head, majority of women NPCs I remember from the first 2 games were represented as simply either wifes or mothers. Wifes discussing something with their husbands, wifes asking about their husband's fates, wifes chastising their husbands for some faults (sometimes in traditional comic "angry wife" way). Mothers with their little kids, mother to whom you return her lost kid (as a part of one mission), and so on.

In the third game (Exodus) there are 3 significant female NPCs who play major role in events as warriors: Anna (sniper who became your wife between the games), Giul who fights for the freedom of her people in the desert location, and Olga who is one of the leaders of teenage survivors in the forest camp location.

Overall Metro series always seemed to me to be much more "puritan" compared to say Fallout series, could be because it is based on Soviet/early post-Soviet enviroment. Also it's much more darker it tone. In this sense it would rather include women as a part of traditional family rather than sexual entertainer.

Crimson Wizard

#202
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 08/02/2021 12:34:50
Is it known what percentage of players are female by now?
Obviously in the old days it was negligible - I am sure it isn't negligible now, but possibly it's still a small minority  :(

Erm, is it so? That is a strange impression.

I have a sister who is 1 year younger, and we had ZX Spectrum in late 80-ies, and then home PC in mid-90-ies, and I remember we were literally fighting for playing them :D.
She was playing practically same things as I did, maybe except she were more into adventure games for which I probably did not have enough patience for until I grew older. But she was also playing Mortal Kombat, Tomb Raider, then GTA, and similar games.

Also, we had a computer class in school and girls were playing all kind of stuff between the lessons. I remember a girl from my class relentlessly trying to play Prince of Persia (old 2D one), even though the death animations caused her to yell and wave hands before the monitor, but she continued playing :D.

EDIT:
To be honest, I do not play alot of multiplayer games today, neither do any investigations on gamer communities, so I don't have much knowledge on who's playing what. But I used to play on one Minecraft server several years ago, and I'd say maybe 1/3 players were female at least, of various ages (I knew an adult woman who played there with her kids for example).

KyriakosCH

I certainly haven't looked into it, and going by posts in this thread female players may be a majority by now :)
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Blondbraid

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Mon 08/02/2021 18:54:06
Quote from: Blondbraid on Mon 08/02/2021 14:32:22but from what I've seen of the Metro 2034 scenes, people complained that it came out of nowhere, and there weren't any women in the game who weren't sex objects.

I would agree that that scene in metro comes out of nowhere; and it actually kind of shocked me, not in sexual way, but rather as a very dumb and character and immersion breaking thing. To elaborate, it came right after two characters escape from what was practically a massive war crime location where lots of people died of a virus or were finished of by a "cleaning" team. They then are placed under a carantine, in one small room corner together, even though they are of separate genders and not related in any way. Latter alone looked pretty weird.
Wow, that really just made it worse in context.
QuoteBut I find the second statement unjust, there are alot of women in Metro series who are not sex objects, in fact I barely remember anything behind that infamous brothel scene. The brothel was 1 scene in 1 location, which may take around 20 seconds of player time if you don't stick around purposedly.
Well, I only played the first game, and you're right that there were many female npc's who weren't sex objects, however, they were all extras in the first game who stood around in some crowded areas but never had any effect on the story, and from what I've heard, Angry Joe may have excaggerated the comment about "all the women" in his review, but I still got the impression that even if some women in metro 2034 isn't sex objects, they are just insignificant extras instead.

As for the "It's just one scene/just one location" argument in regards to the strip club scene however, I'll counter with saying that it only takes one booger on you plate to ruin your dining experience.


WHAM

When it comes to number of gamers, I think the main Finnish gaming magazine "Pelit" had an article about that a while back. Off the top of my head I think the statistics were basically: There are more female gamers than male gamers in general.

However, this was only true when one looked at all genres combined, and when it came to specific genres the numbers varied wildly. Women dominated player counts in puzzle games and mobile games and other non-or-less-violent genres, whereas males dominated the numbers in wargames and sports games. Certain shooters, such as Overwatch, have increased female participation in that genre, and there is definitely room for such expansion in most other genres as well. It just takes a game that suits the tastes of those female gamers to come out, since it's quite clear that females tend to like different things in games than male players, thematically speaking. And as we kind of saw before, a lot of publishers are still stuck in the mindset that they need to cater to teenage male gamers, which is why a lot of genres remain stuck with that demographic.

There was no breakdown for each specific genre, but based on that broad generalization I'd imagine stuff like point'n'click adventure games would have a somewhat higher female player percentage than male, as they tend toward the thinky and character/story driven.
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: The Night Falls, a community roleplaying game

Crimson Wizard

#206
Quote from: Blondbraid on Mon 08/02/2021 20:14:18
As for the "It's just one scene/just one location" argument in regards to the strip club scene however, I'll counter with saying that it only takes one booger on you plate to ruin your dining experience.

This sentence of mine was in regards to the claim that "there weren't any women in the game who weren't sex objects", not to whether this may or not ruin a game. Hence I wanted to give more perspective of the game content.
Something ruining a game is pretty subjective imho, guess it also depends on whether you found the rest of the game enjoyable enough or not (or at least tolerable). In "metro" games I was personally offended by some other things in the past (less today though). In COD1, for another example, I was not offended but outright insulted by one of the scenes, to the point where I was considering writing a letter to developers (although later realized that would be a silly idea); yet I still think it's not a bad game overall.

Blondbraid

Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Mon 08/02/2021 20:59:47
Quote from: Blondbraid on Mon 08/02/2021 20:14:18
As for the "It's just one scene/just one location" argument in regards to the strip club scene however, I'll counter with saying that it only takes one booger on you plate to ruin your dining experience.

This sentence of mine was in regards to the claim that "there weren't any women in the game who weren't sex objects", not to whether this may or not ruin a game. Hence I wanted to give more perspective of the game content.
Well, that's a fair point.
Quote from: Crimson Wizard on Mon 08/02/2021 20:59:47
Something ruining a game is pretty subjective imho, guess it also depends on whether you found the rest of the game enjoyable enough or not (or at least tolerable). In "metro" games I was personally offended by some other things in the past (less today though). In COD1, for another example, I was not offended but outright insulted by one of the scenes, to the point where I was considering writing a letter to developers (although later realized that would be a silly idea); yet I still think it's not a bad game overall.
Yes and no, some things are bound to make groups of people more uncomfortable than other things.
Quote from: WHAM on Mon 08/02/2021 20:20:42
When it comes to number of gamers, I think the main Finnish gaming magazine "Pelit" had an article about that a while back. Off the top of my head I think the statistics were basically: There are more female gamers than male gamers in general.

However, this was only true when one looked at all genres combined, and when it came to specific genres the numbers varied wildly. Women dominated player counts in puzzle games and mobile games and other non-or-less-violent genres, whereas males dominated the numbers in wargames and sports games. Certain shooters, such as Overwatch, have increased female participation in that genre, and there is definitely room for such expansion in most other genres as well. It just takes a game that suits the tastes of those female gamers to come out, since it's quite clear that females tend to like different things in games than male players, thematically speaking. And as we kind of saw before, a lot of publishers are still stuck in the mindset that they need to cater to teenage male gamers, which is why a lot of genres remain stuck with that demographic.

There was no breakdown for each specific genre, but based on that broad generalization I'd imagine stuff like point'n'click adventure games would have a somewhat higher female player percentage than male, as they tend toward the thinky and character/story driven.
I think it's in a huge part thanks to marketing. For example, CoD and Battlefield used to be pretty agressively marketed towards teenage boys exclusively, to the point many women, myself included, felt alienated from such games, meanwhile, Overwatch has made a point of showcasing diverse characters in all their marketing, with the added implication that they are aiming for an equally diverse playerbase.

With the boxart of Bioshock Infinite, the marketing explicitly said they wanted the "dude with gun"demographic.

Problem is, if I hadn't seen any other reviews and had to go on the box cover alone, I'd never have bought and played a game that just seemed to be
yet another dudebro shooter about some super generic dude going off to kill things in the name of MURICA.


Reiter

I shall confess that I do not at all mind some physique on display. Many things benefit from a pleasant view. However, my condition is that this should be evenly spread. To take the obvious example, armour should be of equal consequence to both sexes present. If it is of little importance, then let it be so, but do spare me the tin canned gentlemen if the ladies can deflect shot and sword with nought but their magnificent abdominals. The other way around is a most rare beast, but equally unwelcome. One could make a stand in defence for sensible designs, but what is sensible depends on the setting and the tone.
Of course, it helps to ensure that these characters are indeed characters, rather than furniture. Even palace guards, that are the closest thing to live furniture, could have a moment in the sun. Not to mention, clothes and gear that passes for practical can make a character look terribly pretty all the same.
Is in an old chestnut, I admit, but I am fond of it â€" it has never let me down in conkers yet. A better man than I would reject titillating impracticality outright, no doubt, but Gunga Din is not available at present. All that I require a clear and equal rules on the matter, and a consistency in how this imagined world's sensibility differs from ours.
Not to mention, there is a time and place for everything. What-ever the woman in the provided picture is doing, I imagine it is not the correct place. Unless, I suppose, the world that character inhabit works like that. I cannot say, but it is not exactly what I think of when I think of Prince of Persia. Goodness me, chaps, what is wrong with flowing shawls of silk? It would be perfect!

As for chaps being uncomfortable with revealed male physique, I simply say humbug! It is a both or neither situation, gentlemen, and that is that. Frankly, beginning to enjoy male physique is not going to do wretched things to you. If anything, it will enrich your views. Wrapping them up in plate and pouches even though armour seems to be entirely optional just to serve those sentiments seems exceptionally silly.

Then again, I was always a wretched old sinner.

Now, on what happens in Metro: Last Light. What happens is, the player arrives (after a wild boat ride) at a flooded station called Venice. It is a rather seedy pleasure palace sort of station. You visit a show, featuring trained giant rats and can-can girls, and then follow the chap you want to get a hold of.
I seem to recall that you almost get spotted by the man you are following, and have to duck into a dancing girl's room to hide.
At that occasion, you can pay her a few bullets for a lap-dance, if you wish. It is about as far as it goes, and she mostly just... Ambles around, frankly. It is a stupid thing to do right then, since you are under time pressure in the story to catch up with the villains. Then again, Artiom was always a few generals short of a stavka, perhaps. It is mostly just there, and it is not very good. I am unsure if it came with a karma penalty, but I imagine it did. You could hardly blow your nose in that game without getting a 'bad' ending. It was a nice respite from giant spiders for me, at least, but if the intent was arousal, the scene was a failure. I appreciate that the villains decided to wait so that I could catch up... Time and place. It would have been fun under different circumstances (and indeed a different tone), but the circumstances just made it rather dumb, instead.

They could make a Leisure Suit Lavrov game instead, I suppose. Or perhaps I could. Hmm.

The only sex scene I recall occurs later, when Artiom and Anna (Expert sniper, initially dismissive romantic interest and superb kidnapping victim, recently rescued by our mute hero, because of course) are held in quarantine together (the villain has released a disease on the metro, because of course he would), and since they have developed feelings for each other (because of course they have), they pass the time. It is supposed to be romantic, I suppose, but it is not. Now, video game characters porking is always a difficult thing to model. 3D characters do not have mass, and it is never as clear as when two models need to closely interact. They solve it by going into Artiom's POV, but that method does not really help. Even a few text boxes would have been more evocative. It is quite amusing, particularly since the game takes the scene quite seriously.
I cannot say that I object to the scene (only that it could have been done so much better), but the circumstances around it are so stupid that I cannot help to laugh. I care little for originality, but it is all so terribly stock and uninvolved that it becomes utterly boring. And making such things boring to an established sinner like myself speaks of greater problems. Chief among which is that I care so little for Artiom and less for Anna. I do not know her, what there may be to know. The game did not spend much time to get us acquainted. I suppose Artiom is having a lucky day, but even so, I feel more like a peeping Tom trapped in his head. Artiom is a mute vessel of a man, and it feels more like riding inside the most accident-prone man in Moscow than it does playing as him. Partly because of constant POV-shots where you are not in control. Such as when he is porking.
Metro is one of those games where you need a yo-yo on hand for when it decides you are done controlling it for a bit.

As you can see, I cannot say I recall that game very fondly. The story was particularly idiotic, even beyond my pain threshold. Artiom's visit to the elephant was only part of its problems. It is simply a stupid, basic game, which would not be a problem if it did not insist otherwise and made itself even dumber by being blind to it. Mr Gluchovskij must have had a rather bad day.

There is a time and place for everything, but if you wish to include a sex scene, it is particularly important that it fits in. Since it is such a naked scene (Ha! Ha!), there is very little you can hide it behind if it does not work.

Oh, and another thing! That Bioshock Infinite cover-art is indeed one of the most stupid things I have seen. Of all the evocative things they could have put on the box, marketing chose that. I understand that box-art is of declining importance, but it pays to make it a neat summary of the game or the mood it inhabits. The 'man-in-game-on-box' design philosophy use so very little to tell you so much nothing, and it is a pity.

Honza

Quote from: Blondbraid on Mon 08/02/2021 23:17:08
I think it's in a huge part thanks to marketing. For example, CoD and Battlefield used to be pretty agressively marketed towards teenage boys exclusively, to the point many women, myself included, felt alienated from such games, meanwhile, Overwatch has made a point of showcasing diverse characters in all their marketing, with the added implication that they are aiming for an equally diverse playerbase.

Even with that marketing, the ratio of female players of Overwatch is 16%.

I get to talk to a lot of "regular" people for a living and sometimes I bring up games. Most women I've spoken to play the occasional casual mobile game, but seem almost embarrassed about it because they see it as lazy and childish (and they give me this "maybe you should grow up" look when I say I'm into games :)). Other than that, they would recall a game or two they have tried in the past, but they don't play regularly. I only personally know three women who play bigger games on a regular basis, some games they say they've enjoyed include The Sims, Witcher 3, the Fallout series, Factorio, Last of Us.

The number of men who have told me they play games seems slightly higher (I obviously haven't kept count, just my impression) and when they do, they are more unabashed and passionate about it. They would often mention shooters, strategy games (I remember Starcraft, Civilization and AoE being mentioned), sports games, also Last of Us.

Nobody plays point and clicks :).


As for the previous topic, I also find it a little frustrating how so many game developers turn into drooling teenagers when it comes to depicting sex and "sexy" women. I remember being annoyed that in the Witcher 2, the women had to look like porn actresses, especially since I knew the characters from the books and had pictured them quite differently. To be fair, they had names, personalities and storylines in that game (from what I've seen, haven't actually played through it), it was just the look that I thought was bad.

That said, I don't find it morally reprehensible for the same reasons I don't find excessive (sometimes outright sadistic) violence in games reprehensible. Personally it's not my thing and it's fine to criticize it as a piece of "art", but some posts here feel a tad too judgmental to me. From my experience, most people seem perfectly capable of distinguishing between campy fiction, heightened reality and the real world. I haven't yet looked into that "objectification changes the brain" study, there might be something to that.

Blondbraid

Quote from: Reiter on Tue 09/02/2021 08:57:30
I suppose Artiom is having a lucky day, but even so, I feel more like a peeping Tom trapped in his head.
This so perfectly summarizes my problem with 90% of games trying to portray sex and undressed women.
When I play video games and a female NPC takes off her clothers and/or get sexual with the hero for little to no reason, or the hero visits a brothel/strip club for some contrived reason,
I don't see anything sexy about it, what I see is, figuratively speaking, a creepy dude working on the game deciding to expose himself and his gross frat-bro view on sex to me.
Quote from: Honza on Tue 09/02/2021 09:37:17
That said, I don't find it morally reprehensible for the same reasons I don't find excessive (sometimes outright sadistic) violence in games reprehensible. Personally it's not my thing and it's fine to criticize it as a piece of "art", but some posts here feel a tad too judgmental to me. From my experience, most people seem perfectly capable of distinguishing between campy fiction, heightened reality and the real world. I haven't yet looked into that "objectification changes the brain" study, there might be something to that.
It's hard for me to see it as harmless when female critics have received graphic death threats for criticizing the portrayal of women in video games.
Quote from: Reiter on Tue 09/02/2021 08:57:30
Oh, and another thing! That Bioshock Infinite cover-art is indeed one of the most stupid things I have seen. Of all the evocative things they could have put on the box, marketing chose that. I understand that box-art is of declining importance, but it pays to make it a neat summary of the game or the mood it inhabits. The 'man-in-game-on-box' design philosophy use so very little to tell you so much nothing, and it is a pity.
And Bioshock isn't the only game I nearly missed out on thanks to this idiotic tactic, it was the same with Remnant: from the ashes too; it's a game where you travel to other dimensions and explore fantastic and colorful fantasy worlds,
but the cover is the most agressively boring thing I've seen, same generic deafault dude in grey/brown as always, just with some vines thrown onto him instead of the usual zombies.


Laura Hunt

https://adventuregamers.com/about/advertise

Quote
KeyStatistics

80,000+ monthly unique visitors
73% male / 27% female
94% of visitors aged above 20 (70% between 20 and 35)
A primarily pan-Atlantic readership, with a roughly 50/50 split between North America and Europe

Blondbraid

Quote from: Laura Hunt on Tue 09/02/2021 09:59:51
https://adventuregamers.com/about/advertise

Quote
KeyStatistics

80,000+ monthly unique visitors
73% male / 27% female
94% of visitors aged above 20 (70% between 20 and 35)
A primarily pan-Atlantic readership, with a roughly 50/50 split between North America and Europe
Interesting statistics, though it'd be interesting to compare different sites.
At least from these forums, I got the impression that it was more even proportions between male and female visitors.


BarbWire

As TheFrighter said in his first post, on this topic, The Bechdel Test was inspired by a tongue in cheek comic strip cartoon.

The test is not a measure of how good or 'feminist' a film is, but does highlight just how male dominated cinema really is.
It's a simple, albeit imperfect test, but as author Alison Bechdel herself says 'I'ts a bit of fun.'

The Bechdel Test Fest, which had its 30th anniversary in 2015, is not just for women. 'We love men who come to our events, get
involved and make films that portray, a genuine, fair and accurate representation of their opposite sex. We named The Bechdel
Test Fest after the Dykes to Watch Out For comic strip episode The Rule by Alison Bechdel, but not in collaboration with the artist herself.
Alison Bechdel is not personally involved in this organisation in any way.'

The Frighter commented that this test seems sociobabbling (and sometimes is) but someone in Hollywood takes it seriously. He then
asked if these rules for cinema could be useful in video gaming. It seems to be a simple matter of judging right from wrong. Most
people are capable of doing this without adhering to a test. So I have finally answered his question.

On another note it is refreshing to see that Alison Bechdel has a sense of humour.





KyriakosCH

Quote from: Reiter on Tue 09/02/2021 08:57:30
I shall confess that I do not at all mind some physique on display. Many things benefit from a pleasant view. However, my condition is that this should be evenly spread. To take the obvious example, armour should be of equal consequence to both sexes present. If it is of little importance, then let it be so, but do spare me the tin canned gentlemen if the ladies can deflect shot and sword with nought but their magnificent abdominals. The other way around is a most rare beast, but equally unwelcome. One could make a stand in defence for sensible designs, but what is sensible depends on the setting and the tone.
Of course, it helps to ensure that these characters are indeed characters, rather than furniture. Even palace guards, that are the closest thing to live furniture, could have a moment in the sun. Not to mention, clothes and gear that passes for practical can make a character look terribly pretty all the same.
Is in an old chestnut, I admit, but I am fond of it â€" it has never let me down in conkers yet. A better man than I would reject titillating impracticality outright, no doubt, but Gunga Din is not available at present. All that I require a clear and equal rules on the matter, and a consistency in how this imagined world's sensibility differs from ours.
Not to mention, there is a time and place for everything. What-ever the woman in the provided picture is doing, I imagine it is not the correct place. Unless, I suppose, the world that character inhabit works like that. I cannot say, but it is not exactly what I think of when I think of Prince of Persia. Goodness me, chaps, what is wrong with flowing shawls of silk? It would be perfect!

As for chaps being uncomfortable with revealed male physique, I simply say humbug! It is a both or neither situation, gentlemen, and that is that. Frankly, beginning to enjoy male physique is not going to do wretched things to you. If anything, it will enrich your views. Wrapping them up in plate and pouches even though armour seems to be entirely optional just to serve those sentiments seems exceptionally silly.

Then again, I was always a wretched old sinner.

Now, on what happens in Metro: Last Light. What happens is, the player arrives (after a wild boat ride) at a flooded station called Venice. It is a rather seedy pleasure palace sort of station. You visit a show, featuring trained giant rats and can-can girls, and then follow the chap you want to get a hold of.
I seem to recall that you almost get spotted by the man you are following, and have to duck into a dancing girl's room to hide.
At that occasion, you can pay her a few bullets for a lap-dance, if you wish. It is about as far as it goes, and she mostly just... Ambles around, frankly. It is a stupid thing to do right then, since you are under time pressure in the story to catch up with the villains. Then again, Artiom was always a few generals short of a stavka, perhaps. It is mostly just there, and it is not very good. I am unsure if it came with a karma penalty, but I imagine it did. You could hardly blow your nose in that game without getting a 'bad' ending. It was a nice respite from giant spiders for me, at least, but if the intent was arousal, the scene was a failure. I appreciate that the villains decided to wait so that I could catch up... Time and place. It would have been fun under different circumstances (and indeed a different tone), but the circumstances just made it rather dumb, instead.

They could make a Leisure Suit Lavrov game instead, I suppose. Or perhaps I could. Hmm.

The only sex scene I recall occurs later, when Artiom and Anna (Expert sniper, initially dismissive romantic interest and superb kidnapping victim, recently rescued by our mute hero, because of course) are held in quarantine together (the villain has released a disease on the metro, because of course he would), and since they have developed feelings for each other (because of course they have), they pass the time. It is supposed to be romantic, I suppose, but it is not. Now, video game characters porking is always a difficult thing to model. 3D characters do not have mass, and it is never as clear as when two models need to closely interact. They solve it by going into Artiom's POV, but that method does not really help. Even a few text boxes would have been more evocative. It is quite amusing, particularly since the game takes the scene quite seriously.
I cannot say that I object to the scene (only that it could have been done so much better), but the circumstances around it are so stupid that I cannot help to laugh. I care little for originality, but it is all so terribly stock and uninvolved that it becomes utterly boring. And making such things boring to an established sinner like myself speaks of greater problems. Chief among which is that I care so little for Artiom and less for Anna. I do not know her, what there may be to know. The game did not spend much time to get us acquainted. I suppose Artiom is having a lucky day, but even so, I feel more like a peeping Tom trapped in his head. Artiom is a mute vessel of a man, and it feels more like riding inside the most accident-prone man in Moscow than it does playing as him. Partly because of constant POV-shots where you are not in control. Such as when he is porking.
Metro is one of those games where you need a yo-yo on hand for when it decides you are done controlling it for a bit.

As you can see, I cannot say I recall that game very fondly. The story was particularly idiotic, even beyond my pain threshold. Artiom's visit to the elephant was only part of its problems. It is simply a stupid, basic game, which would not be a problem if it did not insist otherwise and made itself even dumber by being blind to it. Mr Gluchovskij must have had a rather bad day.

There is a time and place for everything, but if you wish to include a sex scene, it is particularly important that it fits in. Since it is such a naked scene (Ha! Ha!), there is very little you can hide it behind if it does not work.

Oh, and another thing! That Bioshock Infinite cover-art is indeed one of the most stupid things I have seen. Of all the evocative things they could have put on the box, marketing chose that. I understand that box-art is of declining importance, but it pays to make it a neat summary of the game or the mood it inhabits. The 'man-in-game-on-box' design philosophy use so very little to tell you so much nothing, and it is a pity.

No one wants to see Lavrov in a sex game.
It would be even worse than Larry  :=
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Tue 09/02/2021 11:15:30
No one wants to see Lavrov in a sex game.
It would be even worse than Larry  :=
I googled him and I can only agree.  :-X
Quote from: Honza on Tue 09/02/2021 09:37:17
I get to talk to a lot of "regular" people for a living and sometimes I bring up games. Most women I've spoken to play the occasional casual mobile game, but seem almost embarrassed about it because they see it as lazy and childish (and they give me this "maybe you should grow up" look when I say I'm into games :)). Other than that, they would recall a game or two they have tried in the past, but they don't play regularly. I only personally know three women who play bigger games on a regular basis, some games they say they've enjoyed include The Sims, Witcher 3, the Fallout series, Factorio, Last of Us.
I think it's worth pondering whether that is because many women still are expected to do more of the daily household chores, like doing the dishes, cooking, looking after children. It's more socially acceptable for men and boys to shut themself away in their room and spend an hour on their hobby than for a woman to do it, especially if she's a mother, and will be labeled a "bad mom" if she leaves the kids alone for too long.

I had time to play video games when I came home from school when I grew up, but I also have a dad who did a fair share of the housework.


Honza

Quote from: Blondbraid on Tue 09/02/2021 11:47:53
I think it's worth pondering whether that is because many women still are expected to do more of the daily household chores, like doing the dishes, cooking, looking after children. It's more socially acceptable for men and boys to shut themself away in their room and spend an hour on their hobby than for a woman to do it, especially if she's a mother, and will be labeled a "bad mom" if she leaves the kids alone for too long.

I had time to play video games when I came home from school when I grew up, but I also have a dad who did a fair share of the housework.

The same women who frown upon games are usually fine with binging Netflix shows and reading books. It's more about the whole "computers are for boys" thing. Two of the three women I mentioned are technical types.

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 08/02/2021 14:02:45
Btw, even the aforementioned Another World has some female nudity. Although it is alien women (I think there was no alien male nudity).

I was shocked when I realized as an adult those were supposed to be naked women. As a kid, I thought they were aliens in white cloaks. I guess the stained glass windows made me think it was a church, not a spa :).

Blondbraid

Quote from: Honza on Tue 09/02/2021 12:52:13
Quote from: Blondbraid on Tue 09/02/2021 11:47:53
I think it's worth pondering whether that is because many women still are expected to do more of the daily household chores, like doing the dishes, cooking, looking after children. It's more socially acceptable for men and boys to shut themself away in their room and spend an hour on their hobby than for a woman to do it, especially if she's a mother, and will be labeled a "bad mom" if she leaves the kids alone for too long.

I had time to play video games when I came home from school when I grew up, but I also have a dad who did a fair share of the housework.

The same women who frown upon games are usually fine with binging Netflix shows and reading books. It's more about the whole "computers are for boys" thing. Two of the three women I mentioned are technical types, one is a data analyst and is somewhat geeky overall, the other one is a math/physics high school teacher (she's in her fifties and really likes The Witcher 3 and Factorio - pretty cool lady :)).
That's a good point, though I think a factor to consider is that books and Netflix shows can be easily paused and put down, wheras many computer games can't be paused and saved at any time without being penalized with lost progress.

Secondly, I think there is a higher entry threshold to gaming, at least AAA games. You not only need a decent computer with good performance, which is usually expensive, but many games aimed at adults will take for granted that you have a lot of previous gaming experience and are already used to most of the standard controls as well as rapid multitasking. Just looking at my dad, despite liking to play Age of Empires 2 when it came, I've noted when I've asked him to try a game with what I thought was pretty basic controls, he struggled immensely remembering where WASD was on the keyboard and having to use both the keyboard and mouse simultaneously to steer the player character, and I imagine it would be even worse for someone with no computer experience at all. From what I've seen, most who got into gaming started as kids, and it's way harder to get into it as an adult, and speaking as someone who used to be a little girl, it's not hard to see why so few girls get into gaming when there are so few quality games marketed at little girls, which feeds into the "computers are for boys" stereotype, and it really doesn't help that up until very recently, the game industry itself was pretty happy to paint this image of what gamers are supposedly like;

I've for real seen people advertize GTA 5 with this image, which makes the Bioshock one look genius in comparision.


KyriakosCH

^ I actually think the above is very clearly working for young teen male buyers of the game, since the male protagonist isn't exactly good looking (so anyone buying can easily think they at least match him) and has some sexual tension :)
The girl certainly looks far better than him, and is not approving ^_^

It seems to be an in-joke anyway. Most of the male teen buyers would rather be with the girl than play GTA, but here you see the male only caring about GTA - and the poster on the wall isn't even within his line of sight...
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Reiter

Context on the GTA picture:

They are brother and sister. They hate each other. They are the children in the GTA V character Michael's awful, awful family. He is jolly awful himself. Conceited, selfish, mean, whimpy, etc. He largely has the family he deserves. Their relationships improve later, though, along with the characters.
The boy in the picture is particularly dreary. He mostly sits around playing 'Righteous Slaughter' and shouting abuse at the other players. They are all unhappy in that household. Michael is part of a very generous witness protection program, but the big Winewood house and the luxuries attached does not stop them from driving each other apart. A divided house of odious, unhappy parvenus. It is quite painful to watch, I must say. Michael was my favourite, but damn it all, did I want to reach my hand in through the CD port and throttle the man!

It is a good picture in context. I knew who they were before I saw it, so it made sense on its own, and describes their hideous relationship. But without that context, it is a different matter. As a stand-alone piece of marketing, it is a miscalculation, because what sort of impression are you meant to take from it?

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