Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination

Started by TheFrighter, Sat 16/01/2021 17:44:12

Previous topic - Next topic

KyriakosCH

That GTA makes you not fear girls and automatically become alpha? ^_^
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

WHAM

On a side note:
Do people still buy games based on box art? And considering we live in a world of digital purchases: do most people ever even SEE the box art of games they are about to buy?

I've now seen it repeatedly stated in this game that a piece of boxart or a poster for a game made someone not want to buy a game, but that feels like forcing the issue to me. If we still lived in the 80's and early pre-internet 90's where purchase decisions had to be made based on the box art and posters and maybe a short review in a gaming magazine somewhere, this would be a more logical statement to make. Also a fun fact regarding boxart: the always happy Kirby games from Japan had their boxart altered for the American market to make Kirby always seem angry (https://i.imgur.com/X2PYISa.jpg), because westerners like angry things, apparently.

As for the GTA5 image, even without having Reiter's context, I know the series history well enough to easily see it's well in line with what the series is trying to do. It's a game series about bad people doing bad things and being unpleasant to everyone. It's a game series in which you are encouraged to beat up prostitutes, sell drugs from an ice cream van and "Kill X ethnic minorities in Y minutes". I'm pretty sure its advertisements aren't supposed to make people relate to the setting or characters all that closely.
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: The Night Falls, a community roleplaying game

Reiter

Ha. Possibly. Or more likely a warning. 'This could be YOU. Take a break.'

EDIT:

As for box arts, I do think that they matter. Of course, it is more about the general marketing material, I suppose. That stupid man on the Cyberpunk box would have been less tired if he had not also featured on so many advert splashes and what-not.

No, I still think that box art does matter. It is, or could be, an encapsulation of your game. Even if the prospective player is not so reliant on the box now as we once were, it is just a waste to make it the most dull thing your marketing squad could come up with. Not to mention that the box art is generally the same art that features in advert splashes, and on the icons you click in the digital game shelf these days. If anything, it should be an invitation to think even more on the matter, as it will make so many different appearances. It is not vital, and I do not think that bad box art has ever made me decide against buying a game, but it does matter. If nothing else, it tells you how deep the fingers of the marketing board goes, I suppose.

As for getting used to controls, I have cut my teeth on rather complex games, such as flight simulators with vast arrays of button combinations and what-not. It has done tremendous things to my muscle memory! Of course, I must remind myself at times that I have practiced it for most of my life, while newcomers must start from the beginning. While it can sound absolutely precious when someone complain about a slightly more-than-basic control set-up, I resolve to keep my mouth shut, because everyone has to start somewhere, and it is jolly well harder than it looks. It is a threshold that may be higher than what I can imagine, but it is there. I can understand why anyone would decide to do something else, rather than learn it.
I could probably become very well versed at golf, if I learned all the nuances and practiced it. Of course, that effort vastly outpaces my interest in that sport, so I do not golf. I imagine many people who do not play electric games feel the same.

As for Lavrov mentioned earlier, it is a common Russian name that sounds a lot like Larry. I did not know that there was a current Lavrov of repute. Having seen him now, I can only agree. I want a different Leisure Suit Lavrov.

Blondbraid

Quote from: WHAM on Tue 09/02/2021 16:21:25
As for the GTA5 image, even without having Reiter's context, I know the series history well enough to easily see it's well in line with what the series is trying to do. It's a game series about bad people doing bad things and being unpleasant to everyone. It's a game series in which you are encouraged to beat up prostitutes, sell drugs from an ice cream van and "Kill X ethnic minorities in Y minutes". I'm pretty sure its advertisements aren't supposed to make people relate to the setting or characters all that closely.
Well, that still presents a pretty nasty and unpleasant picture of gamers, as troglodytes who only want wanton violence, prostitutes, and wanton violence against prostitutes in their entertainment.
Quote from: Reiter on Tue 09/02/2021 16:23:21
As for box arts, I do think that they matter. Of course, it is more about the general marketing material, I suppose. That stupid man on the Cyberpunk box would have been less tired if he had not also featured on so many advert splashes and what-not.

No, I still think that box art does matter. It is, or could be, an encapsulation of your game. Even if the prospective player is not so reliant on the box now as we once were, it is just a waste to make it the most dull thing your marketing squad could come up with. Not to mention that the box art is generally the same art that features in advert splashes, and on the icons you click in the digital game shelf these days. If anything, it should be an invitation to think even more on the matter, as it will make so many different appearances. It is not vital, and I do not think that bad box art has ever made me decide against buying a game, but it does matter. If nothing else, it tells you how deep the fingers of the marketing board goes, I suppose.
Well, while physical video game boxes on the store shelves may not be as common today, digital store thumbnails are, and there are way more games out there than what I can keep track of through reviews alone,
and so the thumbnail on the digital store often will decide whether I think a game seems interesting and I want to click the link to find out more, or brush it off as yet another generic game in a genre I don't like and ignore it.


WHAM

Quote from: Blondbraid on Tue 09/02/2021 17:59:52
Well, that still presents a pretty nasty and unpleasant picture of gamers, as troglodytes who only want wanton violence, prostitutes, and wanton violence against prostitutes in their entertainment.

Sure, but even with that image 140 million units sold, at the very least. I'd call that pretty darn solid marketing, even if some subsets of the potential customerbase dislike it.
It's the same as all advertising: whatever ad you make, some people will like it, and others will not. What differentiates a good marketing campaign from a bad one is only the fact that the good one turns a profit while the bad one does not. It matters not how many people were offended, outraged, driven to complain or reduced to tears.

Ahh! The wonders of rampant capitalism!
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: The Night Falls, a community roleplaying game

Honza

Going back to sex/nudity in games, there's a dilemma I've been having with my own game, so maybe this is the right thread to bite the bullet and ask what people think. Relatively minor (but not negligible) spoilers for Truth be Trolled follow, if you want to play that when it comes out 10 years from now, read at your own risk :).

Spoiler

So I've got this scene in the game. The lady in the tub is a tabloid journalist who likes interviewing people naked in her spa, supposedly because transparency, honesty, no secrets, yada yada. Of course she actually does it do embarrass and dominate them (she's interviewing a naked guy when you first visit the area). There's a visual gag here where thanks to the magic of parallaxing, objects scrolling at different speeds always conveniently align to cover strategic areas, Austin Powers style, so nothing explicit is seen.

So far so good I hope, some mildly naughty fun. Now the dilemma:

At one point, the princess visits the journalist in the spa to confront her about something. I'm considering three options:

1. The princess follows the prescribed "dress code", goes in naked, and she's not happy about it. Again, there are strategically placed objects in the foreground, so nothing explicit. This works for the power dynamic I want between the princess and the journalist and it supports a minor twist in the scene, but I'm worried some people might find it sleazy (as me just looking for excuses to get the girl naked).

2. The princess defies the journalist and marches in dressed. This changes the dynamic of the scene and undermines another idea I've had, but is at least interesting and works thematically in some ways. I also don't have to make a new walkcycle for the princess :).

3. A compromise: the princess wears a towel. Kind of "meh" if you ask me, but it is an option.

Would anyone here take issue with any of this?
[close]

Blondbraid

#226
Quote from: Honza on Tue 09/02/2021 18:10:11
Going back to sex/nudity in games, there's a dilemma I've been having with my own game, so maybe this is the right thread to bite the bullet and ask what people think. Relatively minor (but not negligible) spoilers for Truth be Trolled follow, if you want to play that when it comes out 10 years from now, read at your own risk :).

Spoiler

So I've got this scene in the game. The lady in the tub is a tabloid journalist who likes interviewing people naked in her spa, supposedly because transparency, honesty, no secrets, yada yada. Of course she actually does it do embarrass and dominate them (she's interviewing a naked guy when you first visit the area). There's a visual gag here where thanks to the magic of parallaxing, objects scrolling at different speeds always conveniently align to cover strategic areas, Austin Powers style, so nothing explicit is seen.

So far so good I hope, some mildly naughty fun. Now the dilemma:

At one point, the princess visits the journalist in the spa to confront her about something. I'm considering three options:

1. The princess follows the prescribed "dress code", goes in naked, and she's not happy about it. Again, there are strategically placed objects in the foreground, so nothing explicit. This works for the power dynamic I want between the princess and the journalist and it supports a minor twist in the scene, but I'm worried some people might find it sleazy (as me just looking for excuses to get the girl naked).

2. The princess defies the journalist and marches in dressed. This changes the dynamic of the scene and undermines another idea I've had, but is at least interesting and works thematically in some ways. I also don't have to make a new walkcycle for the princess :).

3. A compromise: the princess wears a towel. Kind of "meh" if you ask me, but it is an option.

Would anyone here take issue with any of this?
[close]
From the screenshot, and the context you've given,
Spoiler
even if there is scenery hiding their private parts, it still sounds like it could be interpreted as sleazy by some players if you have the princess having to follow the "dress code" despite being unhappy about it. I don't want to make any definite statements not knowing how the entire scene plays out, but I recommend you read and ponder this page on TVtropes for examples of what to avoid if you go that route.

However, if you want my personal suggestion, why not have her march in fully dressed, but still have the Austin Powers style scenery blockers covering her sensitive areas?
It'd be a fun and novel way to make the scene memorable as well as save you from drawing the extra walk cycle.
[close]


Honza

Ok, thanks for the input. Maybe it would be better if you put your response in a spoiler tab though? Not that I think people care that much, but just in case :).

Blondbraid

Quote from: Honza on Tue 09/02/2021 18:47:28
Ok, thanks for the input. Maybe it would be better if you put your response in a spoiler tab though? Not that I think people care that much, but just in case :).
Glad to be of help, and I've already edited my comment.


KyriakosCH

#229
How about The Death of Marat? :)

Spoiler
[close]

Although it has to be said that this painting by Munch (which iirc is titled thus) is very clearly just inspired by the actual death of Marat.
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Crimson Wizard

#230
Quote from: Blondbraid on Tue 09/02/2021 15:21:22
Quote from: Honza on Tue 09/02/2021 12:52:13
Quote from: Blondbraid on Tue 09/02/2021 11:47:53
I think it's worth pondering whether that is because many women still are expected to do more of the daily household chores, like doing the dishes, cooking, looking after children. It's more socially acceptable for men and boys to shut themself away in their room and spend an hour on their hobby than for a woman to do it

The same women who frown upon games are usually fine with binging Netflix shows and reading books. It's more about the whole "computers are for boys" thing.
That's a good point, though I think a factor to consider is that books and Netflix shows can be easily paused and put down, wheras many computer games can't be paused and saved at any time without being penalized with lost progress.

Hmm, I don't know, alot of games have a pause. This sounds more like a practical issue with particular items, online games primarily. I mean, even if the daily chores is a main factor, this is rather a question of finding suitable kind of games, is it not?
What about TV that you cannot pause? Or we are talking about most recent times only when people watch everything on the Internet? That sounds funny and weird at the same time, but I remember my grandmother scheduled everything so to be able to watch her TV shows, to the point when I had to attend dinner strictly in the given time not to make her late :).

What I personally witnessed and experienced during my childhood is that older people were rather against spending time on video games at all, because they were considered timewasting. I knew adult men who were telling me and other boys to "grow up" and do something useful instead or we'll never become "real men", after hearing we are playing video games. My grandmother was nagging me all the time about computer (and I had to bite my tongue and not respond her watching soap operas and those crappy daytime shows on TV all day long :p).

On another hand, for instance, my sister whom I mentioned above, had: piano lessons, violin lessons, swimming courses, some martial arts courses (I dont remember which one, taekwondo probably), she had roller skates and my mother tried to get her to spend as much time outside of the house as possible. For more context, my mother was born in late 50-ies in the real village (with cattle and such) and came from as "traditional" family as it may get in our country.

Spoiler

PS. In retrospect I actually wonder why they did not make me to do the same. Maybe my parents gave up on me because I was a lazy sloth with little motivation...
[close]

Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Tue 09/02/2021 19:06:20
How about The Death of Marat? :)
[img ]https://lh5.ggpht.com/-d5RlDp2ZxTrQx-THUFQxjBFvGWF5PD6Ro4Sg1C4CVqostkhrM2J0ZrVeBjf=s1200[/img]
Although it has to be said that this painting by Munch (which iirc is titled thus) is very clearly just inspired by the actual death of Marat.
I say it is a shitty thing to just post random nude paintings with smiley emojis next to them into a discussion on media sexism. I don't want to attribute your particular comment to intentional maliciousness,
but I will say there is no shortage of men online who will deliberately post explicit nude pictures in forums to harass and provoke women who dare to criticize sexist images,
and I find it hard to imagine how you could fail to see how blatantly inappropriate this is in the context of this discussion.

As for the painting itself, I think it's unambiguosly sexist of dudes to take a historical woman who never was naked in public during her life and go "but I wanna see her naked anyway".



Honza

Quote from: Blondbraid on Tue 09/02/2021 18:53:08
Glad to be of help, and I've already edited my comment.

Thanks! On second thought, maybe some more context (medium-to-big spoilers this time):
Spoiler

Here's what makes the naked/dressed options (not) work in my opinion:

Without revealing too much, the scene is about the princess angrily confronting the journalist and the journalist completely turning the tables on her and verbally defeating her. The "twist" I mentioned is that at the moment of her triumph, the journalist stands up in the bathtub and it turns out that after all the bullshit about transparency, she's been wearing a strapless swimsuit the whole time, making her the only dressed person in the room. It's not the subtlest of metaphors, but I think I can make it less on-the-nose in execution than it might sound in writing :). It obviously doesn't work with the princess dressed though, the journalist would still be underdressed compared to her.

What works in favor of the dressed version is that the princess' character arc is her being dishonest (one of those people who go out of their way not to tell a direct lie, but their skirting around the truth ends up being worse than lying) and eventually learning what real honesty is. So her wanting to stay "covered" works for the character and the journalist could use it against her, managing to embarrass her for not wanting to get naked. It could be a cool villain moment if I manage to get the dialogue right, it would showcase the journalist being clever, manipulative and good at bullying people, managing to turn a disadvantage in her favor through sheer shamelessness. This is probably too abstract without the actual dialogue, but it works in my head :). I'd have to sacrifice the swimsuit twist though.
[close]

(sorry for making this about me and my game btw, I think it's somewhat relevant to the topic, but feel free to ignore me :))

KyriakosCH

#233
Quote from: Blondbraid on Tue 09/02/2021 21:15:46
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Tue 09/02/2021 19:06:20
How about The Death of Marat? :)
[img ]https://lh5.ggpht.com/-d5RlDp2ZxTrQx-THUFQxjBFvGWF5PD6Ro4Sg1C4CVqostkhrM2J0ZrVeBjf=s1200[/img]
Although it has to be said that this painting by Munch (which iirc is titled thus) is very clearly just inspired by the actual death of Marat.
I say it is a shitty thing to just post random nude paintings with smiley emojis next to them into a discussion on media sexism. I don't want to attribute your particular comment to intentional maliciousness,
but I will say there is no shortage of men online who will deliberately post explicit nude pictures in forums to harass and provoke women who dare to criticize sexist images,
and I find it hard to imagine how you could fail to see how blatantly inappropriate this is in the context of this discussion.

As for the painting itself, I think it's unambiguosly sexist of dudes to take a historical woman who never was naked in public during her life and go "but I wanna see her naked anyway".



Hm, I think you should try to be civil. The painting I posted is famous and elegant, not some material of pornography. Maybe you are the one who is filled with such views, and can't help attributing them to others? :/

(for the record, Marat didn't exactly look like the man in the painting either, and died in very different circumstances; pretty sure Munch used the known murder case as a symbol; of tension between lovers)

edit: to make this post a little more palatable: I don't have anything against you, I just think you are being a bit too harsh and projecting negative reasons when there is no need for it :)
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Honza

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Wed 10/02/2021 05:21:00
(for the record, Marat didn't exactly look like the man in the painting either, and died in very different circumstances; pretty sure Munch used the known murder case as a symbol; of tension between lovers)

From what I gather, the painting is inspired by Munch's ex-fiancé and his break-up trauma... so I guess it's technically revenge porn? Edvard Munch: expressionist, one of the world's greatest artists, creepy dudebro :).

Reiter

It is an odd picture. I have the distinct impression that the attributation to Marat was added later, to lend it some historical feathers. Hardly needed to, it is a decent picture on its own. Good old Eddie should have considered another title.

While I would disagree that such pictures are sexist ipso facto, I can see why it is poor form to bring them up in discussions such as this, if it is something that disreputable sorts do to short-circuit a discussion. It is best not to do so.

As for the GTA V picture; the game was a phenomenal success. It presumably made Take2 & Company enough money to rival most countries. Still, I do not think that picture really did have anything to do with it, for or against. I still find it silly, as it depends so on the context, but its role in the conquest of GTA was no doubt microscopic.
Goodness, they were in the enviable position of being able to simply say that the game was coming and they would still have sold copies in the millions. I bought it mostly because it looked jolly fun on video.

EDIT: We-hell, that could explain it, I suppose. If it is inspired, I would say it is one thing. If it is her likeness, however, then that is rather poor form on Eddie's part.

KyriakosCH

I didn't know Munch had a fiancee :) Tbh I wouldn't have been surprised if he was celibate.
Although there is at least one other version of Munch's "the Death of Marat", where the girl looks very different.



This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Honza

Quote from: Reiter on Wed 10/02/2021 07:12:47
EDIT: We-hell, that could explain it, I suppose. If it is inspired, I would say it is one thing. If it is her likeness, however, then that is rather poor form on Eddie's part.

The face is her likeness apparently. To the extent a vague, unrealistic painting like this can be. I was joking, I sincerely hope nobody would seriously consider calling a piece of expressionist art "revenge porn".

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Wed 10/02/2021 07:19:02
I didn't know Munch had a fiancee :) Tbh I wouldn't have been surprised if he was celibate.
Although there is at least one other version of Munch's "the Death of Marat", where the girl looks very different.

See here :).

KyriakosCH

#238
Quote from: Honza on Wed 10/02/2021 07:27:51
Quote from: Reiter on Wed 10/02/2021 07:12:47
EDIT: We-hell, that could explain it, I suppose. If it is inspired, I would say it is one thing. If it is her likeness, however, then that is rather poor form on Eddie's part.

The face is her likeness apparently. To the extent a vague, unrealistic painting like this can be. I was joking, I sincerely hope nobody would seriously consider calling a piece of expressionist art "revenge porn".

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Wed 10/02/2021 07:19:02
I didn't know Munch had a fiancee :) Tbh I wouldn't have been surprised if he was celibate.
Although there is at least one other version of Munch's "the Death of Marat", where the girl looks very different.

See here :).

Thanks! :D

This is a much more famous painting, apparently again with that woman:



Going by photographs, Tulla didn't look much like Munch's depictions...

This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Reiter

I still think it is jolly poor form, I must say. Falling out takes a certain grace. Like a cat.

Of course, the term 'revenge porn' may not be entirely applicable, no. Irrespective of the fact that it was not yet invented, I shall add.

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk