Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination

Started by TheFrighter, Sat 16/01/2021 17:44:12

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TheFrighter

Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 13/02/2021 15:48:28


2. Give her a serious and somewhat realistic appearance, but give her some stereotypical feminine trauma, like molestation or daddy issues, severe enough to make her have a hysterical breakdown
whenever the story feels like it and she needs a man to bail her out, as if to say "don't worry, she might pretend to be a badass, but she's secretly super vulnerable to dudes beneath that".

For what I remember a similar situation is also in Disney's Mulan.

_

Blondbraid

Quote from: TheFrighter on Sat 13/02/2021 18:11:26
Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 13/02/2021 15:48:28


2. Give her a serious and somewhat realistic appearance, but give her some stereotypical feminine trauma, like molestation or daddy issues, severe enough to make her have a hysterical breakdown
whenever the story feels like it and she needs a man to bail her out, as if to say "don't worry, she might pretend to be a badass, but she's secretly super vulnerable to dudes beneath that".

For what I remember a similar situation is also in Disney's Mulan.

_
I have no recollection of Mulan having a hysterical emotional breakdown, especially not in an important situation when she needed to focus. She made mistakes and needed help sometimes, sure, but not in situations where a man wouldn't.
Quote from: Babar on Sat 13/02/2021 16:25:08
Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 13/02/2021 15:48:28
Everyone has preferences, but that in itself doesn't objectify the character more, rather, objectification is about distilling someone down to only the things you find attractive to you to the point you can't see them as a full human being anymore.
You have to remember, players doing this regardless MIGHT be a thing, but the more important and problematic aspect is when the author intends for that to be done.
I remember someone did a Batman and Catwoman swap in one of the Arkham games, but this is the best I can still find. Still, it makes it INCREDIBLY obvious what the developer's intent was, in an incredibly hilarious way. There could be an argument made that Catwoman's character is one where she makes use of her sexuality as a weapon, but whether or not that is true, it's DEFINITELY true  that the game devs wanted to provide a "treat" to certain male players:
Hilarious video, but you're definitely right about media creators being the bigger fish here.

As for Catwoman in the Arkham games, I couldn't agree more, and Arkham Knight, which the video was from, was actually toned down compared to the previous game, Arkham city. I liked the idea of playing as Catwoman, but I really couldn't stand the way she had to strike a sexy pose in every. Single. Frame. of her animations. She ran jiggling her boobs and butt, fought showing off her boobs and butt, she even laid in a sexy pose while being unconscious from an explosion.

You could argue that a big part of her character is her sexual tension with Batman, but compare to Michelle Pfieffer's magnificent portrayal from Batman Returns, where she is wearing tight latex, but she's still presented as a strong character with her own motivations in her own right, and are allowed to focus on other things than exclusively saying innuendos and making sexy poses:

The moment when she says "I would love to live with you in your castle forever, just like a fairytale... ...I just couldn't live with myself, so don't pretend this is a happy ending" still gives me chills.


Honza

Quote from: Babar on Sat 13/02/2021 16:25:08
Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 13/02/2021 15:48:28
Everyone has preferences, but that in itself doesn't objectify the character more, rather, objectification is about distilling someone down to only the things you find attractive to you to the point you can't see them as a full human being anymore.
You have to remember, players doing this regardless MIGHT be a thing, but the more important and problematic aspect is when the author intends for that to be done.
I remember someone did a Batman and Catwoman swap in one of the Arkham games, but this is the best I can still find. Still, it makes it INCREDIBLY obvious what the developer's intent was, in an incredibly hilarious way. There could be an argument made that Catwoman's character is one where she makes use of her sexuality as a weapon, but whether or not that is true, it's DEFINITELY true  that the game devs wanted to provide a "treat" to certain male players:

I added an edit to my post, but it was probably too late. I was trying to point out that people don't seem to judge a character being a "treat" as bad on principle (as evidenced by the Jane Jensen interview some time back) - they just don't want the sexualization to be too blatant, and the line is sometimes not very clear. If Lara Croft is a badass hero, is it "objectification" that she is also sexy? Isn't that the intention with most action heroes anyway? How much would you need to change her design to make her acceptable?

The Batman/Catwoman video is funny, but mostly because men and women have different body language, so it looks silly when you swap the models. I can easily imagine a plausible flirty batman/restrained catwoman scene - you'd need to change a few things (starting with the characters' personalities of course), but not that much. Just like with the previous nurse gender swap that you posted, by the way - your version is funny and would look silly in a game, but I can easily imagine my Clooney version in a generic rom-com.

Ali

Quote from: Honza on Sat 13/02/2021 18:37:53
The Batman/Catwoman video is funny, but mostly because men and women have different body language, so it looks silly when you swap the models.

There are plenty of women who walk the way catwoman walks in that video, and I've honestly never seen anyone walk the way batman walks in the clip. It's extremely exaggerated, highly sexualised, and by no means a reflection of the way men and women walk.

There's a difference between being sexy/sexual on the one hand and sexualised/objectified on the other. An obvious example would be the way players mod games to make Lara Croft and other female characters naked, or more sexually appealing to them. I'm sure we're all aware of jokes about female characters' skimpy armour. These are aesthetic choices that make no sense if you treat the character as an individual.

Honza

Quote from: Ali on Sat 13/02/2021 20:41:59
There are plenty of women who walk the way catwoman walks in that video, and I've literally never seen anyone walk the way batman walks in the clip. It's extremely exaggerated, highly sexualised, and by no means a reflection of the way men and women walk.

I didn't mean to say that batman's body language is true-to-life (of course not), but that it's a theatrical exaggeration of typically female sexual displays and that's what makes the clip look silly.  Have you seen an actress on stage walk the way batman walks in that clip when asked to be "flirty" and "seductive"? I certainly have. Now can you imagine a male actor on stage being "flirty" and "seductive" in similarly exaggerated fashion? Some strutting, chest-puffing, swagger, sideway-glancing, eyebrow-raising... put that onto batman's model and it's still theatrical, but not so funny anymore. Put it onto catwoman's, and you've got the joke in reverse.

Blondbraid

Quote from: Honza on Sat 13/02/2021 18:37:53
Quote from: Babar on Sat 13/02/2021 16:25:08
Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 13/02/2021 15:48:28
Everyone has preferences, but that in itself doesn't objectify the character more, rather, objectification is about distilling someone down to only the things you find attractive to you to the point you can't see them as a full human being anymore.
You have to remember, players doing this regardless MIGHT be a thing, but the more important and problematic aspect is when the author intends for that to be done.
I remember someone did a Batman and Catwoman swap in one of the Arkham games, but this is the best I can still find. Still, it makes it INCREDIBLY obvious what the developer's intent was, in an incredibly hilarious way. There could be an argument made that Catwoman's character is one where she makes use of her sexuality as a weapon, but whether or not that is true, it's DEFINITELY true  that the game devs wanted to provide a "treat" to certain male players:

I added an edit to my post, but it was probably too late. I was trying to point out that people don't seem to judge a character being a "treat" as bad on principle (as evidenced by the Jane Jensen interview some time back) - they just don't want the sexualization to be too blatant, and the line is sometimes not very clear. If Lara Croft is a badass hero, is it "objectification" that she is also sexy? Isn't that the intention with most action heroes anyway? How much would you need to change her design to make her acceptable?

The Batman/Catwoman video is funny, but mostly because men and women have different body language, so it looks silly when you swap the models. I can easily imagine a plausible flirty batman/restrained catwoman scene - you'd need to change a few things (starting with the characters' personalities of course), but not that much. Just like with the previous nurse gender swap that you posted, by the way - your version is funny and would look silly in a game, but I can easily imagine my Clooney version in a generic rom-com.
I'm not sure if you understand what I've been trying to say, but it's not designing characters to be attractive in and on itself that's the problem, it's designing characters that are so sexualized they become ridiculous, as well as having characters who only exist to be pretty that's the problem.

I get the impression that you want some objective measure on how to tell if a character is objectified or not, like you could just measure the length of their skirt or something, but objectification isn't just about how a character look, but how they look in the context of their story and whether their attractiveness is just that, a character looking attractive, or if the developers specifically present the character in a scenario meant to make the audience pause and drool. For example, I don't think Lara's original look with the shorts and tank top were too sexualized or objectifying in the context of a woman travelling in a hot climate in her leisure time, and plenty of real women have worn shorts to keep cool in that situation, but I was annoyed with how the JRPG Valkyria Chronicles featured all male soldiers in full combat uniforms, but the female officers had miniskirts with their uniforms instead, because they are meant to be serious soldiers and wearing uniforms that were issued to them. Even if the female Cast of Valkyria Chronicles were otherwise presented as full and nuanced characters, it was pretty blatant that the bare thighs were only on display to pander to guys whenever the female characters were combat-crawling.
Lara Croft
Sergeant Alicia Melchiott from Valkyria Chronicles

I hope this example help explain why it's not just about the amount of skin shown, but how it's done and what's the the context.
Quote from: Ali on Sat 13/02/2021 20:41:59
Quote from: Honza on Sat 13/02/2021 18:37:53
The Batman/Catwoman video is funny, but mostly because men and women have different body language, so it looks silly when you swap the models.

There are plenty of women who walk the way catwoman walks in that video, and I've honestly never seen anyone walk the way batman walks in the clip. It's extremely exaggerated, highly sexualised, and by no means a reflection of the way men and women walk.

There's a difference between being sexy/sexual on the one hand and sexualised/objectified on the other. An obvious example would be the way players mod games to make Lara Croft and other female characters naked, or more sexually appealing to them. I'm sure we're all aware of jokes about female characters' skimpy armour. These are aesthetic choices that make no sense if you treat the character as an individual.
I thought Ali explained this pretty well, and Catwoman's moves are still exaggerated in a way no real woman acts.


KyriakosCH

^Japan :)

I personally don't find guns to be sexual in the slightest, and that image of the strangely smiling gunner-girl seems bizarre to me :D
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Honza

Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 13/02/2021 21:26:42
it's not designing characters to be attractive in and on itself that's the problem, it's designing characters that are so sexualized they become ridiculous, as well as having characters who only exist to be pretty that's the problem.

Quote from: Ali on Sat 13/02/2021 20:41:59These are aesthetic choices that make no sense if you treat the character as an individual.

Yes, I think it's clear, I was probably getting too technical/abstract about it. The thing is, Lara Croft seems to be right on the line between what you describe as sexy and sexualised, both with the outfit and exaggerated anatomy. Which might have been what led me down this line of thinking.

Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sat 13/02/2021 21:53:39
^Japan :)

I personally don't find guns to be sexual in the slightest, and that image of the strangely smiling gunner-girl seems bizarre to me :D
I think that kind of imagery is due to to combining two popular things, action and coll fight-scenes with typical anime girls.
Quote from: Honza on Sat 13/02/2021 21:54:19
Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 13/02/2021 21:26:42
it's not designing characters to be attractive in and on itself that's the problem, it's designing characters that are so sexualized they become ridiculous, as well as having characters who only exist to be pretty that's the problem.

Quote from: Ali on Sat 13/02/2021 20:41:59These are aesthetic choices that make no sense if you treat the character as an individual.

Yes, I think it's clear, I was probably getting too technical/abstract about it. The thing is, Lara Croft seems to be right on the line between what you describe as sexy and sexualised, both with the outfit and exaggerated anatomy. Which might have been what led me down this line of thinking.
Yeah, I used the image of Lara from Tomb Raider: Anniversary as my go-to example, because I'm most familiar with the ps2 era Tomb Raider games, but it's true that her looks have varied and I agree some of her iterations crosses the line for me too, and I definitively would describe a lot of the early marketing as sleazy, I supposed I should have posted a visual example earlier of her typical game look I was referring to earlier, but for everyone else, here's a lineup of her different in-game looks;


Babar

Quote from: Honza on Sat 13/02/2021 18:37:53
I added an edit to my post, but it was probably too late. I was trying to point out that people don't seem to judge a character being a "treat" as bad on principle (as evidenced by the Jane Jensen interview some time back) - they just don't want the sexualization to be too blatant, and the line is sometimes not very clear. If Lara Croft is a badass hero, is it "objectification" that she is also sexy? Isn't that the intention with most action heroes anyway? How much would you need to change her design to make her acceptable?

The Batman/Catwoman video is funny, but mostly because men and women have different body language, so it looks silly when you swap the models. I can easily imagine a plausible flirty batman/restrained catwoman scene - you'd need to change a few things (starting with the characters' personalities of course), but not that much. Just like with the previous nurse gender swap that you posted, by the way - your version is funny and would look silly in a game, but I can easily imagine my Clooney version in a generic rom-com.
As I said, I don't think it is simply down to "This character looks sexy to me, bad, this character doesn't, ok. Or "The level of sexiness in this character has crossed the vague line!". While looking for the Batman clip earlier, I first came across one of Anita Sarkeesian's old Tropes vs Women videos that illustrates this pretty well:

Since the examples being given here are relating to Lara Croft, it's convenient that she's the subject of much of the video. One could agree that using her sexuality as a weapon is NOT a defining trait of Lara Croft, so when the camera angles and character model and poses and animation re-inforce objectification, it's all the more obvious. I can't keep count of the number of times online I've read someone say the equivalent of "hey, at least I get a good view of her backside throughout the game" regarding female-led 3rd person games. It's VERY hard to find an equivalent for male character models.
Here is some gameplay footage from one of the newer Tomb Raiders
Here is some (equivalent? I guess Rico is confident in his body and full of bravado and has flirted with women in the games) gameplay footage from Just Cause 3
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Now, with his very own game: Alien Time Zone

WHAM

Oh Gods, we've fallen to the Anita Sarkeesian level of nonsense! Abort! ABORT!

As for how women need to dress in videogames to appease everyone, there isn't a solution to be had. If you have any sliver of bare skin visible, some tier of feminist will complain it's titillating for men and thus wrong, and if you cover women up another tier of feminist will complain we are hiding women from sight and thus nullifying their presence.

As for guys, aside from that loud and obnoxious "muh hobby muscht be kept pure of the cootiesch" -crowd, they are usually just happy to have female characters around.
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KyriakosCH

#351
I mean, sure, people (if they have some talent) can think of a story and attract attention. It takes time. Presenting a hot girl (or a hot guy, for females) takes no time, and you don't need to create or even second-guess the ability to focus on such... I think it's about being a hack, not as much about being sexist.
At least in literature it is not as common, because it's not really a visual genre (although, as far as I know, women actually are into books with such descriptions; men are far more visual-based for a book to have this effect: an anecdote, a female friend of mine has read thousands of serious books, but from time to time reads love stories for this effect) - but in movies or games... :)

(also, worth noting that if your buyers are primarily people who just reached puberty, you really can't market the same product that you would to adults)

In movies, particularly, you almost never see average-looking people in lead roles (unless it is a very cerebral movie).
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Babar

Quote from: WHAM on Sun 14/02/2021 09:10:42
Oh Gods, we've fallen to the Anita Sarkeesian level of nonsense! Abort! ABORT!

As for how women need to dress in videogames to appease everyone, there isn't a solution to be had. If you have any sliver of bare skin visible, some tier of feminist will complain it's titillating for men and thus wrong, and if you cover women up another tier of feminist will complain we are hiding women from sight and thus nullifying their presence.

As for guys, aside from that loud and obnoxious "muh hobby muscht be kept pure of the cootiesch" -crowd, they are usually just happy to have female characters around.
Did you expect her not to come up in a discussion about sexual discrimination in video games?
And I repeat (for the 3rd time?) it isn't about amount of skin visible in the game. It is about how the game authors seek to portray the character. Take the two videos I shared. I haven't played Just Cause 3, but in Just Cause 2, I aspired to be Rico- I wanted to jump out of a jetplane, hookshot into an enemy on the ground at the last second (thus negating fall damage), pull down radio towers and explode statues. It was awesome. And that was absolutely the game developer's intent- they designed the game to elicit such feelings.

I DON'T have the sort of connection Blondbraid had with Lara Croft in Tomb Raider, but what little I played of the recent games (and even the ones a generation back), aside from very, very few and inbetween moments (swinging about, shooting a bow), I didn't want to be Lara Croft. She's a well defined character, but to me, it was mostly like that video I shared- curvy bum, curvy bum, look at how I highlight my curvy bum. Oh look, I've been speared with a wooden stake through the skull. So much do I suffer. In the games from the last generation she was portrayed as a sexualised for my titilation bad-ass, in the newer ones it is toned down (but still there), but they replaced it with "suffering" as a character trait.

Perhaps I'm being unfair because I didn't like the game (or the ones from the last generation, which at least had less "look at me suffer, oh, I got a stake through the skull"). An example that went the opposite way with a female lead that I'm kinda enjoying these days is Horizon: Zero Dawn. Third person game with a developed character that is not unattractive, but it isn't obsessively focused on her bum (or sexually objectifying her), lots of fun gameplay that DOES kinda make one aspire to be her.

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KyriakosCH

I think that there was a recent game about being an e-girl on a Twitch-like platform...
Some men are really easy to manipulate  := I find it all a rather interesting phenomenon. But yes, literary it is not. A game should have as the epicenter a nice story, imo.
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Cassiebsg

Quote from: WHAM on Sun 14/02/2021 09:10:42
Oh Gods, we've fallen to the Anita Sarkeesian level of nonsense! Abort! ABORT!



There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Honza

Quote from: Babar on Sun 14/02/2021 09:38:31
As I said, I don't think it is simply down to "This character looks sexy to me, bad, this character doesn't, ok. Or "The level of sexiness in this character has crossed the vague line!". While looking for the Batman clip earlier, I first came across one of Anita Sarkeesian's old Tropes vs Women videos that illustrates this pretty well:

I'm not disputing the overall point that female characters are often designed as eye-candy for men and that it can get distasteful and ridiculous. But I also repeat again that the sort of one-to-one comparisons between male and female characters that Sarkeesian makes in that video are highly demagogical. A big butt and swaying hips isn't a representation of a stereotypically sexy man, pronounced V-shape and swagger is. This isn't a fair gender-swap of this, this is. This is an actual example of a character designed as eye-candy for women (apparently).


KyriakosCH

#356
Quote from: Honza on Sun 14/02/2021 10:06:46
Quote from: Babar on Sun 14/02/2021 09:38:31
As I said, I don't think it is simply down to "This character looks sexy to me, bad, this character doesn't, ok. Or "The level of sexiness in this character has crossed the vague line!". While looking for the Batman clip earlier, I first came across one of Anita Sarkeesian's old Tropes vs Women videos that illustrates this pretty well:

I'm not disputing the overall point that female characters are often designed as eye-candy for men and that it can get distasteful and ridiculous. But I also repeat again that the sort of one-to-one comparisons between male and female characters that Sarkeesian makes in that video are highly demagogical. A big butt and swaying hips isn't a representation of a stereotypically sexy man, exaggerated V-shape and swagger is. This isn't a fair gender-swap of this, this is. This is an actual example of a character designed as eye-candy for women (apparently).



So, Gabriel Knight (the remake of GN1) again :D



It is funny that he was voiced by Tim Curry. They didn't model him after Curry, though...

He does look good. Good looks sell, for better or worse.

Edit: From the GK creator's blog you linked:

"[...]WHY WRITE HOT GUYS?

Reason #1: Female gamers will love you for it.

There are, in fact, a large portion of women who play games.  According to the ESA, 45% of all gamers are female.  This varies greatly by genre, I’m sure.  But if women do tend to play the type of game you design for, then why not give them a male character they can salivate over?  Because…

Reason #2:  Male gamers are okay with it.

Really. I have never once had a male player tell me “I don’t like Gabriel Knight because he’s too sexy.”  What?  No.  It’s never happened.   And why would it?  After all, the player is role-playing that character.  Who doesn’t want to be good-looking, smart, and sexy?  What guy doesn’t want to be hot?  Do not fear the hotness."

I personally wouldn't say Gabriel is "smart". He tends to do dumb stuff, is a trash-book writer, his life consists of sex and little more (and then he starts fighting demons) :D
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Babar

Quote from: Honza on Sun 14/02/2021 10:06:46
I'm not disputing the overall point that female characters are often designed as eye-candy for men and that it can get distasteful and ridiculous. But I also repeat again that the sort of one-to-one comparisons between male and female characters that Sarkeesian makes in that video are highly demagogical. A big butt and swaying hips isn't a representation of a stereotypically sexy man, exaggerated V-shape and swagger is. This isn't a fair gender-swap of this, this is. This is an actual example of a character designed as eye-candy for women (apparently).
I think it is more accurate to say that is the example you gave is an example of character designed as eye-candy for women that is also palatable to men. I'm certainly not an expert, or a woman, or anything other than mostly straight, so I can't speak to this with any great level of detail (hopefully someone better suited will pipe in), but the level of uncomfortableness a woman (and non-teenage men) might feel at overtly sexualised women such as the Prince of Persia character I posted earlier, imagine that, but gender-swapped. I'm having a hard time finding examples, because even searching "hot guy" and "sexy guy" on the net focuses more on what is so for gay men rather than women. The reason I used that specific nurse picture is because that's the best example of it I could find.
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Honza

Quote from: Babar on Sun 14/02/2021 10:28:56
I'm certainly not an expert, or a woman, or anything other than mostly straight, so I can't speak to this with any great level of detail (hopefully someone better suited will pipe in), but the level of uncomfortableness a woman (and non-teenage men) might feel at overtly sexualised women such as the Prince of Persia character I posted earlier, imagine that, but gender-swapped. I'm having a hard time finding examples, because even searching "hot guy" and "sexy guy" on the net focuses more on what is so for gay men rather than women. The reason I used that specific nurse picture is because that's the best example of it I could find.

Well, I was a lazy student, so I don't have any real academic credentials to throw around, but I do have a degree in human ethology and have been around some sexual preferences research, so I might have some vague idea :). Treating male and female sexual behavior as identical is bound to produce ridiculous conclusions. The fact that direct gender swaps lead you to gay porn tells you as much.

EDIT: I agree with this:

Quote from: Babar on Sun 14/02/2021 10:28:56
I think it is more accurate to say that is the example you gave is an example of character designed as eye-candy for women that is also palatable to men.

Blondbraid

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Sun 14/02/2021 09:50:23
Quote from: WHAM on Sun 14/02/2021 09:10:42
Oh Gods, we've fallen to the Anita Sarkeesian level of nonsense! Abort! ABORT!




My exact reaction.
Quote from: WHAM on Sun 14/02/2021 09:10:42
Oh Gods, we've fallen to the Anita Sarkeesian level of nonsense! Abort! ABORT!

As for how women need to dress in videogames to appease everyone, there isn't a solution to be had. If you have any sliver of bare skin visible, some tier of feminist will complain it's titillating for men and thus wrong, and if you cover women up another tier of feminist will complain we are hiding women from sight and thus nullifying their presence.

As for guys, aside from that loud and obnoxious "muh hobby muscht be kept pure of the cootiesch" -crowd, they are usually just happy to have female characters around.
That is a strawman so big the director of the Wickerman is asking for his film prop back.
Also, all your previous comments about how you have no qualms about more women in games and wanting to encourage female game devs ring pretty false when you have spent som much time defending gamergate as "not that bad"
and painting any female critique of the game industry or gamer behavior as hysterical caricatures. Everybody should watch this video before claiming this shit in gaming communities is harmless;



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