Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination

Started by TheFrighter, Sat 16/01/2021 17:44:12

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KyriakosCH

PewDiePie is as good an example as any, about media-driven success in gaming (related) stuff. You can't say he is talented or intelligent. But he looked good :)

In my view he was the worst of the famous youtube gamer-people.
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 11:50:52
PewDiePie is as good an example as any, about media-driven success in gaming (related) stuff. You can't say he is talented or intelligent. But he looked good :)
This video is not about his looks, it's about what his behavior does. You should watch before commenting on it.


KyriakosCH

Quote from: Blondbraid on Sun 14/02/2021 11:51:56
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 11:50:52
PewDiePie is as good an example as any, about media-driven success in gaming (related) stuff. You can't say he is talented or intelligent. But he looked good :)
This video is not about his looks, it's about what his behavior does. You should watch before commenting on it.

Sorry, it's a matter of principle for me to not watch anything having to do with your famous countryman  (nod)
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 11:53:30
Quote from: Blondbraid on Sun 14/02/2021 11:51:56
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 11:50:52
PewDiePie is as good an example as any, about media-driven success in gaming (related) stuff. You can't say he is talented or intelligent. But he looked good :)
This video is not about his looks, it's about what his behavior does. You should watch before commenting on it.

Sorry, it's a matter of principle for me to not watch anything having to do with your famous countryman  (nod)
If you're not gonna watch it, I find it futile of you to comment on it. It's not a bunch of clips of him, the video is about analyzing what views he spreads and normalizes to his audience.


Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 09:30:43
I mean, sure, people (if they have some talent) can think of a story and attract attention. It takes time. Presenting a hot girl (or a hot guy, for females) takes no time, and you don't need to create or even second-guess the ability to focus on such... I think it's about being a hack, not as much about being sexist.
At least in literature it is not as common, because it's not really a visual genre (although, as far as I know, women actually are into books with such descriptions; men are far more visual-based for a book to have this effect: an anecdote, a female friend of mine has read thousands of serious books, but from time to time reads love stories for this effect) - but in movies or games... :)

(also, worth noting that if your buyers are primarily people who just reached puberty, you really can't market the same product that you would to adults)

In movies, particularly, you almost never see average-looking people in lead roles (unless it is a very cerebral movie).
Quote from: Honza on Sun 14/02/2021 11:29:23
Quote from: Babar on Sun 14/02/2021 10:28:56
I'm certainly not an expert, or a woman, or anything other than mostly straight, so I can't speak to this with any great level of detail (hopefully someone better suited will pipe in), but the level of uncomfortableness a woman (and non-teenage men) might feel at overtly sexualised women such as the Prince of Persia character I posted earlier, imagine that, but gender-swapped. I'm having a hard time finding examples, because even searching "hot guy" and "sexy guy" on the net focuses more on what is so for gay men rather than women. The reason I used that specific nurse picture is because that's the best example of it I could find.

Well, I was a lazy student, so I don't have any real academic credentials to throw around, but I do have a degree in human ethology and have been around some sexual preferences research, so I might have some vague idea :). Treating male and female sexual behavior as identical is bound to produce ridiculous conclusions. The fact that direct gender swaps lead you to gay porn tells you as much.

EDIT: I agree with this:

Quote from: Babar on Sun 14/02/2021 10:28:56
I think it is more accurate to say that is the example you gave is an example of character designed as eye-candy for women that is also palatable to men.
I think the idea that women are less visually stimulated than men is nonsense, the main reason there are more romantic books aimed towards women than movies and games is because female sexuality has been banned, punished and pathologized for centuries, meanwhile straight male sexuality has been celebrated and enshrined as God's Will withing marriage, and an all-powerful urge that must be sated with protitutes least men go insane when outside of marriage. So when when women started gaining more rights, including their right to their own sexuality in the 1960s, men had already used the film and printing technology to build an industry catering to pleasing men, and had the money to hire women to pose for photo shoots. Meanwhile, media pandering to women was mainly relegated to books, because books and writings are one of the few mediums available to people with little money or technical education, plus the very act of a woman asking a man to pose undressed for money is still considered impossibly obscene to the point of being unthinkable in most places, and hence why this divide was created.


WHAM

Today on: "Every opinion I don't like is a strawman."
It's like talking to a wall, and so I shall now cease for the time being.
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Ali

It's a sign of how infantile conversations around video games are that Sarkeesian's unsensational, entry-level feminist takes on the medium cause people to flip their lid. Feminists have been writing like this about media for decades, and society has not collapsed, but macho crybabies can't handle a woman making mild observations on YouTube.

Honza

Quote from: Blondbraid on Sun 14/02/2021 12:04:37
I think the idea that women are less visually stimulated than men is nonsense

Women certainly are visually stimulated, and the differences from men might be completely negligible if observed by some alien species (let alone used as justification for oppression of one gender by the other - I'm definitely not trying to do that). They may, however, be enough to make ridiculously exaggerated sexual features more appealing to one gender than to the other. I'm not going to get into the whole "biological vs cultural theory" argument with you, but I think this is a reasonable enough possibility to at least consider.

Blondbraid

Quote from: WHAM on Sun 14/02/2021 12:26:54
Today on: "Every opinion I don't like is a strawman."
It's like talking to a wall, and so I shall now cease for the time being.
But it IS a strawman argument to claim that feminists need every female character to be covered head to toe and wear costumes pleasing everyone.
Virtually every single feminist and female game critic I know of would be fine with female characters wearing the same practical work clothes as the male characters,
or street clothes that look comfortable and something you can run in without a wardrobe malfunction. It really is that simple, but insecure dudes keep obfuscating this.
Quote from: Ali on Sun 14/02/2021 12:30:23
It's a sign of how infantile conversations around video games are that Sarkeesian's unsensational, entry-level feminist takes on the medium cause people to flip their lid. Feminists have been writing like this about media for decades, and society has not collapsed, but macho crybabies can't handle a woman making mild observations on YouTube.
Indeed, I don't think anyone claiming Sarkeesian is an insane fanatic has actually watched any of her videos.
If WHAM had, he'd noticed that I posted one in my reply to him way before Babar posted the one with Lara Croft.


Blondbraid

#369
Quote from: Honza on Sun 14/02/2021 12:32:46
Quote from: Blondbraid on Sun 14/02/2021 12:04:37
I think the idea that women are less visually stimulated than men is nonsense

Women certainly are visually stimulated, and the differences from men might be completely negligible if observed by some alien species (let alone used as justification for oppression of one gender by the other - I'm definitely not trying to do that). They may, however, be enough to make ridiculously exaggerated sexual features more appealing to one gender than to the other. I'm not going to get into the whole "biological vs cultural theory" argument with you, but I think this is a reasonable enough possibility to at least consider.
I don't feel like getting back into an argument about evolutionary psychology either, but I will say it's safe to say that men and boys have received far more visual training in objectifying women than vice versa.

There are plenty of highly sexualized female characters in nearly all media, even stuff aimed at small kids, whereas as a woman, nearly all I've seen aimed at other women in mainstream media has been prim and proper Disney princes,
followed by usually fully dressed men in romance book covers, and only occasionally a man being shirtless (but otherwise fully clothed), all of them still presented as full characters and not just empty eye candy,
and this cultural background is bound to have a huge effect on people's sexuality and how they show it.

I think this Naomi Wolf quote seems relevant.


As for women and gay porn, there is a pretty popular genre of man on man romance exclusively aimed at women, so the idea that gender-swapped examples of objectifying images looking like gay porn doesn't necessarily mean women still won't find it attractive.


KyriakosCH

This thread is going places :D

Anyway, I wasn't expressing my own view of how women react to romance books - I was going by what female friends say, who are into books in the first place.
I really doubt that women by and large are less into sexual matters or less into looks or more refined on average than men. The sad reality is that the large majority of both genders is rather not very refined* :)

*also, one can be refined and still be into looks.
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 13:56:26
This thread is going places :D

Anyway, I wasn't expressing my own view of how women react to romance books - I was going by what female friends say, who are into books in the first place.
I really doubt that women by and large are less into sexual matters or less into looks or more refined on average than men. The sad reality is that the large majority of both genders is rather not very refined* :)

*also, one can be refined and still be into looks.
I was mainly replying to Honza, though as for your female friends, if they are really into books and reading, I'd say they're a rather biased source.  :P


KyriakosCH

Quote from: Blondbraid on Sun 14/02/2021 14:04:46
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 13:56:26
This thread is going places :D

Anyway, I wasn't expressing my own view of how women react to romance books - I was going by what female friends say, who are into books in the first place.
I really doubt that women by and large are less into sexual matters or less into looks or more refined on average than men. The sad reality is that the large majority of both genders is rather not very refined* :)

*also, one can be refined and still be into looks.
I was mainly replying to Honza, though as for your female friends, if they are really into books and reading, I'd say they're a rather biased source.  :P

I agree, they are biased. And corona closed down their shop anyway, so it doesn't matter anymore  :-D
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Reiter

On Lara Croft:

I am very fond of Ms Croft. She is, of course, very pretty, and the games does well to show it off. That said, I would consider it a 'bonus', perhaps. Even if she was more 'practically' dressed, I would have enjoyed our time together. I like the gameplay, and her character. Indeed, I disagree with Babar earlier; I DID want to be Ms Croft, and felt the part when I played.

Mind you, I have not played the latest games. For want of interest, I think. I may have gotten the wrong impression, but they were presented as 'Young Ms Croft trapped on an island with violent criminals, having an utterly miserable time', which is not what I want from Tomb Raider. I want exciting adventure! Tombs! Treasure! Pistol gymnastics! That I- well, Ms Croft-, is also pretty while on the job is a splendid addition.
Of course, I also get the sense that the world of Tomb Raider is slightly more glamorous than ours to accommodate for all this. If it were more real and practical, it would possibly kill the mood flat-out. Those splendid adventuring shorts are perfect in a world where there is no tetanus.

On Valkyria Chronicles:

The uniforms are stupid, but then the entire setting is. It is a fairy-tale featuring mechanised warfare. It strangely fits, in an odd way. I dislike it because it is not evenly spread. The chaps get to wear what passes for practical kit. It would have been fine as far as I am concerned if there were some muscles on display, thank you.
Of course, most characters hardly being a day older than 15 would have helped, too, but I think that is simply an anime-esque convention that disagrees with me.

I must say that the entire ambience of that game irritated me. I do not know why, it was as if it was on the edge of two levels of idioticness, which made it feel inconsistent and only brought forth the most stupid aspects of both. It was irksome. All that could have been all-right if the gameplay had been more along what I expected.
Rather reminds me of the Brothers in Arms games, now that I think of it, but far more anime than I can stand up to at once. Same strange mismatched mood, same shallow squad command functions, the two have more in common than one would think.
I was mostly irritated by the hair-dos, I confess. I really wished that I could march my stupid platoon off to the regimental barber and give them all a sensible hair-cut.

KyriakosCH

While in games with good-looking male protagonists, you play as that "type" (Broken Sword is another example, although it tried to copy Gabriel Knight anyway), in games like Tomb Raider the protagonist also has to wear sexy clothes... I think it would be far more difficult for male players to play as Gabriel Knight if he was walking around shirtless or with much more skin showing  (laugh)
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Babar

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 15:08:41
While in games with good-looking male protagonists, you play as that "type" (Broken Sword is another example, although it tried to copy Gabriel Knight anyway), in games like Tomb Raider the protagonist also has to wear sexy clothes... I think it would be far more difficult for male players to play as Gabriel Knight if he was walking around shirtless or with much more skin showing  (laugh)
Depends on the author's intention and what they wish to evoke. Conan the Barbarian would be a lot more palatable than Conan the Stud-muffin.
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KyriakosCH

Quote from: Babar on Sun 14/02/2021 15:15:46
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 15:08:41
While in games with good-looking male protagonists, you play as that "type" (Broken Sword is another example, although it tried to copy Gabriel Knight anyway), in games like Tomb Raider the protagonist also has to wear sexy clothes... I think it would be far more difficult for male players to play as Gabriel Knight if he was walking around shirtless or with much more skin showing  (laugh)
Depends on the author's intention and what they wish to evoke. Conan the Barbarian would be a lot more palatable than Conan the Stud-muffin.

True... But I personally never liked the He-Man type in the first place :D
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Blondbraid

Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 15:08:41
While in games with good-looking male protagonists, you play as that "type" (Broken Sword is another example, although it tried to copy Gabriel Knight anyway), in games like Tomb Raider the protagonist also has to wear sexy clothes... I think it would be far more difficult for male players to play as Gabriel Knight if he was walking around shirtless or with much more skin showing  (laugh)
That's pretty much what happened with Mevius from Final Fantasy, they had to redesign him because male players complained that his character design made them uncomfortable.
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 15:17:31
Quote from: Babar on Sun 14/02/2021 15:15:46
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 15:08:41
While in games with good-looking male protagonists, you play as that "type" (Broken Sword is another example, although it tried to copy Gabriel Knight anyway), in games like Tomb Raider the protagonist also has to wear sexy clothes... I think it would be far more difficult for male players to play as Gabriel Knight if he was walking around shirtless or with much more skin showing  (laugh)
Depends on the author's intention and what they wish to evoke. Conan the Barbarian would be a lot more palatable than Conan the Stud-muffin.

True... But I personally never liked the He-Man type in the first place :D
At least male game protagonists get to have a bit more variety, Super Mario, Guybrush Threepwood, Ezio Auditore, Solid Snake in Metal Gear Solid 4 excetera are all a pretty far cry from He-man. Meanwhile, I can't think of a single female game protagonist that isn't super slim and in her 20s or younger.


KyriakosCH

^The Cat Lady is in her 40s, iirc (although there are a few flashbacks when she is in her 20s :) )

(granted, that isn't a game by a massive company, but I don't play those by now...)
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

TheFrighter

Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 13/02/2021 22:27:53

Can I say that I find the "sex-appeal" of Lara Croft overrated? More: intentionally overrated? Real girls cosplayers could be sexy in that outfit, but a 3-D avatar just look functional to me.

_

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