Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination

Started by TheFrighter, Sat 16/01/2021 17:44:12

Previous topic - Next topic

Blondbraid

Quote from: TheFrighter on Sun 14/02/2021 18:18:43
Can I say that I find the "sex-appeal" of Lara Croft overrated? More: intentionally overrated? Real girls cosplayers could be sexy in that outfit, but a 3-D avatar just look functional to me.

_
As I said, my experience with Lara was that the worst objectification was in the promo art surrounding the game, especially in the first three games, but as for the reboot making people take her seriously and not see Lara as sex symbol,
I came across more NSFW "fan" art on the Steam community page for the reboot games than I ever did for the pre-reboot ones.


BarbWire


Well said, TheFrighter, I couldn't agree more. They are pixelated, drawn, computer graphics. Not to be confused with real life.

Did you see my post, a few hundred pages back, where I quoted what Alison Bechdel said about the test. It  makes interesting reading.

KyriakosCH

Back in the day, LC was probably the first mainstream sex-symbol in computer games :)
I mean, you can't use Larry Laffer as that - just look at the poor fellow.

The early LC games were also a bit of a novelty, since back then you didn't have large world games in 3d; only some shooters and Alone in the Dark (which was ridiculously more clunky than LC).
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Blondbraid

Quote from: BarbWire on Sun 14/02/2021 18:43:50

Well said, TheFrighter, I couldn't agree more. They are pixelated, drawn, computer graphics. Not to be confused with real life.

Did you see my post, a few hundred pages back, where I quoted what Alison Bechdel said about the test. It  makes interesting reading.
No one old enough to play the games think Lara Croft is a real person, but fiction affects how we see the world. Just look what Black Beauty did for animal rights.
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Sun 14/02/2021 18:49:17
The early LC games were also a bit of a novelty, since back then you didn't have large world games in 3d; only some shooters and Alone in the Dark (which was ridiculously more clunky than LC).
Indeed, I think it's a shame that the pioneering the Tomb Raider series did for 3D platforming games is so often overlooked in discussions of game history.


BarbWire

Yes, Blondbraid, Anna Sewell did bring the plight of horses to public attention and good on her for doing so. Fiction, therefore, can affect the way we see the world, but
certain individuals would still ill treat animals, because it is in their make up. I know that, like myself, you are an animal lover. If you remember in the Trumpmageddon
thread we were both horrified at the ill treatment of a manatee.

Games, to me, have always been just that. As I have said before, I play games such as Thief, Assassins Creed, Far Cry etc. for the pure enjoyment and never find
myself analyzing the characters or writing. It's a make believe world which, in my view, is far preferable to the real world.

You have strong beliefs on womens rights, and I admire your passion on the subject, but you can't  expect total agreement from everybody. As my Nan used to say:
'It wouldn't do for us all to be alike.'  It would be pretty boring if we were.

Cassiebsg

It's not about being alike, it's about mutual respect.
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

BarbWire

That's quite right, Cassiebsg. However, I don't seem to be getting any. Whatever I say is wrong.

Ali

Quote from: BarbWire on Sun 14/02/2021 22:16:55
That's quite right, Cassiebsg. However, I don't seem to be getting any. Whatever I say is wrong.

It's not disrespectful to disagree with someone. It is disrespectful to repeatedly troll this conversation, try to shut it down and close off avenues of discussion as you have.

BarbWire

Ali, trolling is trying to start quarrels or upset people by posting inflammatory or off topic messages. I am not guilty of either of these.

I have simply tried to make light of heated exchanges that have taken place between members of the community.  It is not my fault
that nobody on here has a sense of humour.

I remember Darth saying, a while back, that he was concerned that new members may be put off of joining the site because of
the biterness towards certain people. I can certainly see where he was coming from.

Blondbraid

Quote from: BarbWire on Sun 14/02/2021 22:16:55
That's quite right, Cassiebsg. However, I don't seem to be getting any. Whatever I say is wrong.
You said yourself that not everyone will agree with everyone, and I've disagreed with some things you've said, but I've tried my best to voice this respectfully towards you.

If you wish to just play games without any critical thinking or discussion, feel free to do so, but for me, half the enjoyment have always been the analysis of the media I consume,
and I'm not just talking about seeing it through a feminist lens or something, but learning about what parts make a story entertaining and what makes it boring or frustrating,
not just because it interests me but because I think it helps me grow and learn as a creator myself.

I just don't understand why the very act of analyzing media vexes so many people, because if you don't want to partake in these discussions, you can simply avoid partaking in any
forums discussing these matters, and stay out of any review/critique related threads online in general.
Quote from: BarbWire on Sun 14/02/2021 22:39:17
I remember Darth saying, a while back, that he was concerned that new members may be put off of joining the site because of
the biterness towards certain people. I can certainly see where he was coming from.
As for putting members off the site, I'm not sure what I've said in response that would be worse than any of the other people I've argued against have posted.


Ali

Quote from: BarbWire on Sun 14/02/2021 22:39:17
I have simply tried to make light of heated exchanges that have taken place between members of the community.  It is not my fault
that nobody on here has a sense of humour.

I don't want to set myself up as a comedy expert, but when you keep making the same joke ("You people shouldn't take this serious issue so seriously!") over and over again and people don't laugh - it might not be a great joke.

KyriakosCH

Quote from: Ali on Mon 15/02/2021 01:04:39
Quote from: BarbWire on Sun 14/02/2021 22:39:17
I have simply tried to make light of heated exchanges that have taken place between members of the community.  It is not my fault
that nobody on here has a sense of humour.

I don't want to set myself up as a comedy expert, but when you keep making the same joke ("You people shouldn't take this serious issue so seriously!") over and over again and people don't laugh - it might not be a great joke.

(my own attempt at humor follows :D )

"Comedy is subjective, Murray Ali - isn't that what you people say?"

This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

WHAM

I dunno, Ali. I've had a few good laughs here!  (laugh)

We're talking about entertainment products here, about things made to amuse and entertain and distract, not human rights or criminal justice or politics.
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: The Night Falls, a community roleplaying game

Ali

What you seem to be saying is, "Well WE thought it was funny to diminish Blondbraid and other feminists' experience, and repeatedly derail a potentially interesting conversation about the gender politics of games."

Of course humour is subjective, but when your jokes target other people and only amuse you and your mates - you're a bully.

Blondbraid

Quote from: WHAM on Mon 15/02/2021 10:36:46
I dunno, Ali. I've had a few good laughs here!  (laugh)

We're talking about entertainment products here, about things made to amuse and entertain and distract, not human rights or criminal justice or politics.
This whole discussion is about how entertainment affects our views on human rights, criminal justice and politics,
and if it didn't have this effect, there wouldn't be so many guys so ardently fighting to preserve the status quo.
Quote from: Ali on Mon 15/02/2021 11:13:11
What you seem to be saying is, "Well WE thought it was funny to diminish Blondbraid and other feminists' experience, and repeatedly derail a potentially interesting conversation about the gender politics of games."

Of course humour is subjective, but when your jokes target other people and only amuse you and your mates - you're a bully.
If I may use an allegory, let's just say that antelopes aren't exactly known for being amused by lions making jokes about having steak for dinner.


WHAM

Quote from: Blondbraid on Mon 15/02/2021 11:36:10
This whole discussion is about how entertainment affects our views on human rights, criminal justice and politics,
and if it didn't have this effect, there wouldn't be so many guys so ardently fighting to preserve the status quo.

I've yet to see a single "guy" in this thread "ardently fighting to preserve the status quo". I have, however, seen plenty of instances of people being accused of doing that, while trying to do the opposite, so this well might just have been poisoned before the conversation even started.
Wrongthinker and anticitizen one. Pending removal to memory hole. | WHAMGAMES proudly presents: The Night Falls, a community roleplaying game

Ali

KyriakosCH has repeatedly given examples of female characters who he doesn't think are sexualised and male characters who he thinks are sexualised. The point he's making, I think, is that stereotyping and objectification are bad writing and affect both men and women. Deliberately or not, this rejects the reality the Bechdel test is based on - that male and female characters are not equal victims of stereotypical and sexist representation.

The Bechdel test is premised on the idea that political critique of media is valid. So when you insists that videogames are mere fripperies "made to amuse and entertain and distract", you reject that premise. That's something you're entitled to do, but it turns a conversation about the Bechdel test into a tiresome argument about the necessity of feminist critiques in general.

This is what seems to me to be a determination to defend the status quo - arguing either that the problem does not exist ("men are sexualised too!"), or that attempts to address the issue are themselves worse ("Oh noes! Anita Sarkeesian").

KyriakosCH

#397
Quote from: Ali on Mon 15/02/2021 12:16:07
KyriakosCH has repeatedly given examples of female characters who he doesn't think are sexualised and male characters who he thinks are sexualised. The point he's making, I think, is that stereotyping and objectification are bad writing and affect both men and women. Deliberately or not, this rejects the reality the Bechdel test is based on - that male and female characters are not equal victims of stereotypical and sexist representation.

The Bechdel test is premised on the idea that political critique of media is valid. So when you insists that videogames are mere fripperies "made to amuse and entertain and distract", you reject that premise. That's something you're entitled to do, but it turns a conversation about the Bechdel test into a tiresome argument about the necessity of feminist critiques in general.

This is what seems to me to be a determination to defend the status quo - arguing either that the problem does not exist ("men are sexualised too!"), or that attempts to address the issue are themselves worse ("Oh noes! Anita Sarkeesian").

Hey, I don't recall ever saying that female characters aren't sexualized. I said that this seems to usually be due to bad/lazy writing. Lara Croft, for example, obviously was sexualized in the game's box art :)
I also don't care about sexualized male characters - I played Gabriel Knight 1 and 3. I never claimed that such (Gabriel) are sexualized to comparable degree to female ones. Are you actually reading my posts?  :=

I did mention some cases of characters in a massively popular media (anime) who are very obviously made sex objects, for lazy/marketable reasons, and said I can't take such anime seriously.
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

Blondbraid

Quote from: Ali on Mon 15/02/2021 12:16:07
KyriakosCH has repeatedly given examples of female characters who he doesn't think are sexualised and male characters who he thinks are sexualised. The point he's making, I think, is that stereotyping and objectification are bad writing and affect both men and women. Deliberately or not, this rejects the reality the Bechdel test is based on - that male and female characters are not equal victims of stereotypical and sexist representation.

The Bechdel test is premised on the idea that political critique of media is valid. So when you insists that videogames are mere fripperies "made to amuse and entertain and distract", you reject that premise. That's something you're entitled to do, but it turns a conversation about the Bechdel test into a tiresome argument about the necessity of feminist critiques in general.

This is what seems to me to be a determination to defend the status quo - arguing either that the problem does not exist ("men are sexualised too!"), or that attempts to address the issue are themselves worse ("Oh noes! Anita Sarkeesian").
My thoughts exactly.
I've tried as hard as I could to explain why I've criticized the comments I've quoted in this thread, and I don't know how to make it any clearer,
and it still feels like most answers I get either deny anything I call them out on or complain that I'm not polite enough when debunking their strawman arguments.


KyriakosCH

#399
Well, I am sure you agree that it isn't good to present another person's views as different than they are (as Ali did, I am sure without meaning to).
For the record: I am not in favor of sexualized females in games/media, and if a media has such it won't score points with me.

edit: and since you mentioned "strawman arguments" for the thousandth time, you should be aware that your own arguments don't come across as great either; it is just that some are more polite in conversation (because they are angels, no doubt)  (nod)
This is the Way - A dark allegory. My Twitter!  My Youtube!

SMF spam blocked by CleanTalk