Author Topic: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination  (Read 38322 times)

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #540 on: 24 Mar 2021, 15:41 »
I have family who live in both Germany and Spain (and some who have lived both places), and of course there are cultural similarities. There are aspects of German culture (in some regions, anyway) that are more similar to Spanish culture than to, say, Scandinavian culture. (I'm thinking of things like Catholicism, aspects of academia and the role of public intellectuals in media discourse, and lots of small things like even the sort of magazines that are sold.)

That's not to say that there aren't also differences, but these things are all relative. Is German and Spanish culture as different as German and Bangladeshi culture, for example? Do you think you face as much discrimination as an immigrant from outside "the western world"?

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #541 on: 24 Mar 2021, 16:38 »
I have family who live in both Germany and Spain (and some who have lived both places), and of course there are cultural similarities. There are aspects of German culture (in some regions, anyway) that are more similar to Spanish culture than to, say, Scandinavian culture. (I'm thinking of things like Catholicism, aspects of academia and the role of public intellectuals in media discourse, and lots of small things like even the sort of magazines that are sold.)

Most of Germany is Protestant, and the legacy of Communism in East Germany, where I live, makes religion almost irrelevant in everyday life. Only the South is mostly Catholic, and the flavour of Catholicism there has little to do with the one you find in countries like Spain or Italy, with our bloody saints, virgins, processions and obsession with sin and guilt. And again, things like "the sort of magazines that are sold" have little to do with understanding the deeper differences in mindset, in work ethics, in life goals, and things like attitudes towards science, medicine, or even government and corporate corruption. Reading the news here and comparing them to Spanish newspapers and newssites and seeing what everyday concerns people have in both places feels like living in a different planet altogether. And again, I'm not going by what other people tell me about it; this is my literal lived experience, and of every single Spaniard I've met living here.

Quote
That's not to say that there aren't also differences, but these things are all relative. Is German and Spanish culture as different as German and Bangladeshi culture, for example? Do you think you face as much discrimination as an immigrant from outside "the western world"?

I don't know what your point is here, but the answer is... depends? I probably experience less discrimination than, say, a Polish construction worker, but certainly more than an educated black American, and way more than any Scandinavian citizen. I relate more to my Turkish neighbours than to most Germans I've known. The connection I feel with Italian friends has literally nothing to do with what I feel when interfacing with Danes. Most of Europe doesn't consider us part of the civilized world, making the idea of the "western world" in this context by and large irrelevant save as a vague, nebulous idea that allows us to very loosely group certain groups of societies/states the same way we can group "East Asia" together in a very vague sense. Of course you'll see more similarities between China and Japan than between China and Pakistan, but only in the most superficial of senses because both countries have had radically different histories and have moved towards extremely different societies. And the same way, this idea of "the Western World" mashing together radically different cultures in some sort of mushy, homogeneous goo, is like FormosaFalanster and I have stated, incorrect, superficial and offensive.


Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #542 on: 24 Mar 2021, 17:49 »
It has never been my intention to claim that there aren't any differences between Spanish and German culture, or that discrimination between European nationalities and ethnicities doesn't exist,
I was trying to use examples from countries I've visited on how two European countries will have more in common than a European country to a country far outside Europe.

As for the concept of the western world, as I've said before, I haven't seen people be offended by it before, and this has been a blind spot to me. In my homeland, Sweden, I was taught in school
that the idea of "the western world" was popularized during the cold war, where on one side, there was USA and most western European nations mostly siding with USA and consuming Anglo-Saxon media
(Hollywood blockbusters, music, fashion), and on the other side, there was the Soviet Union and China, which was largely closed off to western imports and most people had no easy access to media from the west
instead almost entirely consuming their own films, music, and literature. And then there were countries who were not part of either side, which thus were labeled "the third world".

Of course much has changed since the cold war, but from what I've seen, you can still see much of the cultural differences left from this era, and this is the background I was taught for the terminology,
but also, having a grandmother who moved from what was then Checkoslovakia to Sweden to marry my grandfather, has colored my personal understanding of it.

I get that I have a limited perspective, but I'd be curious to hear what other AGSers from other countries think of this.


Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #543 on: 24 Mar 2021, 18:25 »
Hmm, did not have much intention to speak on this topic as I have minimal experience with this, but has to admit that it was also a surprise to hear "western world" term may cause this kind of reaction. Guess it depends on what level of "identity" one puts into this. In Russia "western world" is a very common term, used to loosely define the cultural basis that lies in foundation of west-european countries and their deriatives (USA, Canada, and so on), in either positive or negative key (in the past it was a reccuring topic on TV talk shows whether Russia belongs to "western" or "eastern" world, which was kind of dumb imho). Although I too think people often overexaggerate how united in common goals these countries are.

Reading the news here and comparing them to Spanish newspapers and newssites and seeing what everyday concerns people have in both places feels like living in a different planet altogether.

Also surprising to learn. But maybe I should not be surprised. This reminds me my own impression when starting reading modern american media...
Spoiler: ShowHide
I have an alternate email box on Yahoo.com created strictly out of necessity many years ago. Did not pay attention to the site itself at first. But when I started reading certain articles from their front page out of curiousity I literally felt that: reading articles written by aliens from another planet, because not only the terminology they used was confusing, but also some of the concepts and problems they were discussing felt outworldy at first... some still are...

Then again, listening to some of the Russian media makes me feel there are people stuck in another time/dimension while everyone else moved elsewhere.
« Last Edit: 24 Mar 2021, 19:56 by Crimson Wizard »

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #544 on: 24 Mar 2021, 18:33 »
As for the concept of the western world, as I've said before, I haven't seen people be offended by it before, and this has been a blind spot to me. In my homeland, Sweden, I was taught in school
that the idea of "the western world" was popularized during the cold war, where on one side, there was USA and most western European nations mostly siding with USA and consuming Anglo-Saxon media
(Hollywood blockbusters, music, fashion)

Hmm, did not have much intention to speak on this topic as I have minimal experience with this, but has to admit that it was also a surprise to hear "western world" term may cause this kind of reaction. Guess it depends on what level of "identity" one puts into this. In Russia "western world" is a very common term, used to loosely define the cultural basis that lies in foundation of west-european countries and their deriatives (USA, Canada, and so on)

I can't speak for FormosaFalanster, but for me it's a reaction against what is being increasingly perceived as an Americanization of the world, whether it's by means of literal military force (in places like the Middle East), military propaganda in "family-friendly" media (obvious e.g., Marvel), the left-wing turn towards identitarianism over class concerns, the embrace of commodification, mercantilization of every aspect of life and capitalism as supreme values, and the inspiration for right-wing populist movements via figures like Donald Trump. Rejecting the association with the idea of some homogenized "western world" is, indeed, admitting it does exist on one hand, but also expresses a will to push against this and to be able to find solutions to each culture's specific issues that are specific to those cultures, not just a blanket set of anglocentric values pushed by greedy, massive corporations and a culture that prioritizes individualism over everything else.


Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #545 on: 24 Mar 2021, 21:10 »
As for the concept of the western world, as I've said before, I haven't seen people be offended by it before, and this has been a blind spot to me. In my homeland, Sweden, I was taught in school
that the idea of "the western world" was popularized during the cold war, where on one side, there was USA and most western European nations mostly siding with USA and consuming Anglo-Saxon media
(Hollywood blockbusters, music, fashion)

Hmm, did not have much intention to speak on this topic as I have minimal experience with this, but has to admit that it was also a surprise to hear "western world" term may cause this kind of reaction. Guess it depends on what level of "identity" one puts into this. In Russia "western world" is a very common term, used to loosely define the cultural basis that lies in foundation of west-european countries and their deriatives (USA, Canada, and so on)

I can't speak for FormosaFalanster, but for me it's a reaction against what is being increasingly perceived as an Americanization of the world, whether it's by means of literal military force (in places like the Middle East), military propaganda in "family-friendly" media (obvious e.g., Marvel), the left-wing turn towards identitarianism over class concerns, the embrace of commodification, mercantilization of every aspect of life and capitalism as supreme values, and the inspiration for right-wing populist movements via figures like Donald Trump. Rejecting the association with the idea of some homogenized "western world" is, indeed, admitting it does exist on one hand, but also expresses a will to push against this and to be able to find solutions to each culture's specific issues that are specific to those cultures, not just a blanket set of anglocentric values pushed by greedy, massive corporations and a culture that prioritizes individualism over everything else.

And USA as we know it was created in the first place thanks to English, French, Spanish and other European colonizers settling the continent through imperialist means. Heck, even Sweden was in on it for a short while,
and many of the problematic parts of US culture that still remain today are a legacy of the European colonizers.

Now, I don't like US foreign politics, or their cultural imperialism, or how many local things get replaced by mass-produced American stuff, but I also think it's hard to criticize USA without also recognize how it was created in the first place.


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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #546 on: 24 Mar 2021, 21:13 »
I can only speak from my own experience being a Portuguese living in Denmark... Even though there are obvious cultural differences, I still fell that the two aren't that different at the core of values. I had no problem "adapting" to living here and I don't think my way of live would be much different had I not moved. While other countries, like Arab nations, I wouldn't even want to visit, cause I wouldn't be able to (or don't want to) abide by their laws.

Discrimination and xenophobia is, unfortunately, a common ground around the globe and present in all countries and is an entirely different subject other than "cultural", IMHO.
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #547 on: 25 Mar 2021, 07:10 »
And USA as we know it was created in the first place thanks to English, French, Spanish and other European colonizers settling the continent through imperialist means. Heck, even Sweden was in on it for a short while,
and many of the problematic parts of US culture that still remain today are a legacy of the European colonizers.

I'm talking about the situation right now, in our own milieu, not 300 or 500 years ago. The USA has grown into its own thing throughout all this time and has developed a unique culture of its own that is distinct from the simple aggregation of factors that originally constituted it, and as such, is a valid target of criticism in its own right and not just as "Europe v2.0".

But even if you want to look back, many of the traits that are now recognized as characteristically USian such as extreme individualism, obsession with guns, lack of trust in a "Big Government" and an "every man for himself" attitude towards social and financial development are not per se inherited from the values that the colonizers brought with them, but were developed in situ as a direct consequence of the way the conquest of the continent to the West took place, when "pioneers" had to fend for themselves with little to no external help (due to the colonizers simply not having established a unified society yet), and what was seen as a unique opportunity for obtaining personal wealth without having to be subjected to the rule/interference of a central government. Those values together with the perception of the country as having defined itself through rebellion against the "old ways" define the current-day USA than anything any of the individual colonizing cultures might have contributed by itself, and constituted the ultimate agglutinizing factor that would eventually end up making the USA a totally distinct entity (American exceptionalism, yadda yadda).

(And the legacy of the Spanish colonization of America lives on in Latin America, not the USA, which would be another conversation entirely.)

Discrimination and xenophobia is, unfortunately, a common ground around the globe and present in all countries and is an entirely different subject other than "cultural", IMHO.

It is cultural in the sense of what subjects are the target of discrimination. In the USA, black people are affected by racism the most; in Spain, it is North Africans and gitanos; in Germany, it is Slavs and Turks; in Turkey, it is Kurds; in Finland, it's the Sami; in Japan, it's the Ainu and South-East asians in general; etc, etc. That's why I say that yes, while racism and discrimination exist, their manifestations are specific to each culture and thus require different approaches that are dependent on that culture's own history and its relationship with the specific peoples it oppresses, not just a (literal) black-and-white blanket approach.

« Last Edit: 25 Mar 2021, 07:12 by Laura Hunt »

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #548 on: 25 Mar 2021, 09:01 »
Look, this whole thing started because I made an off-hand comment on Disney having a huge impact on western culture, because US media does have more on an impact in those countries,
and I've noted it myself in conversations with Crimson Wizard and others living in other countries that many persons there don't have the same pop-cultural reference points as people I've talked to
living in USA and western Europe.

I've never claimed that there aren't differences between USA and Europe, or that there isn't discrimination within Europe, and I used "the western world" to denote that some places are
more influenced by American pop-culture than other places, for various historical reasons, and do you really disagree with that statement?

Or what other words should I use when referring to countries that have closer ties to US culture than countries that don't and have historically closed themselves off to the US?


Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #549 on: 25 Mar 2021, 09:29 »
Again blondbraid you are talking about things you don't know about.

You are not a southern European yet you have people here pointing out to you that the conception of "western world" as you were taught is incorrect. Both Laura and myself have enough heritage and experience in Southern Europe to tell you that this is a misconception.

Yes, it is incorrect to say these countries have "more ties and more influence" from the USA. The Francosphere has a MASSIVE pop culture of its own, its own comic book culture, its own pop music, its own movies. Italy is the same, Italians primarily enjoy their own movies and music and entertainment. In these countries, US pop culture is seen as secondary.

Maybe it's not the same in Sweden. Well you learned something today: France, Italy, Belgium, Spain, and others, they are not like Sweden.

So actually, the countries I mentioned are closer to some non-European countries. In Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, and other East Asian countries, there is also a presence of Anglo-American pop culture but secondary to the local one.

Trust me, I am in a very good position to assess that Southern Europeans and East Asians often have more things in common than they would have with Anglo-Americans...

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #550 on: 25 Mar 2021, 10:15 »
Ok, I'm genuinely interested. I know too little about Asia to know what you are talking about, so it would be nice to see some examples of what Southern Europeans and East Asians have in common.

The Scandinavian countries probably do have some extra connection to the anglo-world...not necessarily anglo-American all the time. We're obsessed with English football, we do subtitles for movies instead of dubbing them (and get the most from Hollywood), and with regards to Disney, my first thought is actually Donald Duck comic books, not the movies. (Mickey Mouse is for some reason secondary to Donald Duck up here.)

The term "Western world" is in common use, and it would be interesting to know if this is an offending term. The term is loose in meaning and easy to attack, yet useful for generalization.

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #551 on: 25 Mar 2021, 10:31 »
I think the prime reason why most people never see "western" creating offence is because it is rarely used in a context in with Southern Europeans would be part of the audience.

But I spend way too much time in English speaking spheres so I have become sensitive to it. And it seems Laura has the same history.

Some things that are similar between, say, a French person and a Taiwanese? Here you go:

- both cultures value food a lot, quality food, and eating time is important and not rushed
- both cultures value art and classical culture above pop culture which is seen as secondary to it
- both cultures would first be interested in pop culture from their own country before that of the Anglosphere
- both cultures are essentially atheist, owing to France long history of secularism and anticlericanism, and Taiwan being the least religious place in Asia
- both cultures prefer going around in public transport than with a car and if they have to drive would prefer a small vehicle
- both cultures are very picky about what they take from American culture and would not take it as a whole

All of the above is opposed to the anglo-american way of life. In both these countries, if you go around saying that Disney is a huge influence, people would laugh.

This comes obviously from a first hand experience.

edit: oh my god I almost forgot the most important! A culture of being extremely straightforward and direct! It is a misconception about Asian people being too polite to say the truth, any Asian person would tell you that to keep face you have to be extremely direct. The Mandarin language pretty much gives you no other choice! So the French tendency to be very frank goes very well with a Taiwanese abruptness, and in contrast with the convoluted manners of the English language.
Just think about how it is seen as very rude to curse in English and how women in particular never curse in English, whereas in French or Mandarin everyone including women curse very rudely all the time.
« Last Edit: 25 Mar 2021, 10:46 by FormosaFalanster »

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #552 on: 25 Mar 2021, 11:30 »
I will say that I've not seen southern Europe portrayed as a separate entity from the rest of Europe and if I may give a Swedish perspective;
In my homeland students are given a choice to study French, Spanish or German as a third language in school, plenty of Swedish words are loan-words
from the french language and our king is descended from a Frenchman brought to Sweden to become king, and many people will travel to the alps for vacations,
and from what I can tell, alpine towns in Germany and Northern Italy will have far more in common culturally than north and south Italy.
And then you have the history lessons, with everything from the Roman Empire to the modern EU specifically focusing on how different European nations have
influenced each other.
The term "Western world" is in common use, and it would be interesting to know if this is an offending term. The term is loose in meaning and easy to attack, yet useful for generalization.

It's starting to feel to me that FormosaFalanster and Laura Hunt are arguing more as to why southern Europe shouldn't be counted into the western world,
rather than bringing up examples as to why the western world as a concept itself is invalid.


Snarky

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #553 on: 25 Mar 2021, 12:05 »
Yes, it is incorrect to say these countries have "more ties and more influence" from the USA. The Francosphere has a MASSIVE pop culture of its own, its own comic book culture, its own pop music, its own movies. Italy is the same, Italians primarily enjoy their own movies and music and entertainment. In these countries, US pop culture is seen as secondary.

Here's a list of the top-grossing movies in France in 2019 (skipping 2020 because of the pandemic). Not only were nine out of the top ten movies American—six of them were by Disney. Further down the list you see a better showing for domestic films, but in the top 100 it looks to be about two thirds American, one third French (at a very rough estimate).

In Italy, all the top ten movies were American (the first Italian entry is at number 14), and it looks like there are rather fewer local movies represented overall. So it is flat out false to claim that Italians "primarily enjoy their own movies."

(For comparison, in Norway there were three domestic films among the box office top ten that year—though none in Sweden or Denmark.)

And sure, there's French and Italian pop music (and rap etc.), but can you with a straight face deny that it is massively influenced by American music?

Also, just a few weeks ago I remember Americans questioning whether people outside the US would "get" WandaVision, since it's so full of references to old-time American sitcoms, and people from all over Europe (I remember Italy specifically) jumping in to explain that they were quite familiar with the shows referenced, since they were broadcast over here as well (mostly as cheap daytime filler in the 1970s–90s, I gather).

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #554 on: 25 Mar 2021, 12:14 »
Because you look at statistics and you do not know the people themselves. French and Italian would go see an American movie and then they'll forget about it. It doesn't impact them as much as their own domestic media. Of course people have American entertainment there, but they would never see it as a massive, important, impacting thing. It's seen and forgotten, it's not the big reference. They watch Disney but they don't see it as the core of their psyche.


I should probably not have said something. I am not comfortable with how you feel okay lecturing people on their own culture. I was eager to share my experience but if it is a fight, then I will let you win. I'd rather not post anymore here.
« Last Edit: 25 Mar 2021, 12:41 by FormosaFalanster »

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #555 on: 25 Mar 2021, 12:33 »
I will say that I've not seen southern Europe portrayed as a separate entity from the rest of Europe

I'm old enough to remember when most Southern European countries (save for Italy) were not part of the European Union. Greece joined in 1981, Spain and Portugal in 1986. And even during the 90s, we had to bear with the idea of being second-class Europeans, as typically exemplified by this lovely acronym.

And sure, if you're talking old European history, things were way messier, with places like what we now know as Italy or Germany consisting of thousands of micro-states and constantly shifting borders, sometimes leaving entire cultures on the "wrong" side when nations finally coalesced (e.g., the French region of Alsace is practically more German than French, and the region of South Tyrol in Italy actually has a strong separatist movement that wants to be annexed to Austria instead). However, you were referencing the term "western world" as a construct resulting of the divison of world powers during the Cold War, and in that context, it makes no sense to include for example Spain, since we were still under the dictatorship of this funny guy named Franco until 1975, and we were isolated and impervious to American influences until well into the 80s. Sure, people knew about Disney and Elvis and Sinatra and cowboy movies, but this was all in the realm of entertainment (which was still seen as distinctly foreign and "exotic") and pop culture, but NOT in the sphere of political and ideological influence. If the "western world" means primarily "the area of influence of the Anglosphere", then we were never a part of it until extremely recently, and this influence is exactly what I'm speaking out against.

Just think about how it is seen as very rude to curse in English and how women in particular never curse in English, whereas in French or Mandarin everyone including women curse very rudely all the time.

Hear, hear. I've actually had a couple of members of this very community tell me that they hate women who swear and that tattoos on women are a turn-off, and of course my reaction is "fuck you if you have a fucking problem with my fucking tattos, asshole" :-D We DO swear like sailors in Spain too, even a French friend of mine would burst out laughing every time we would walk past some Spaniards in the street in Berlin because she knew enough Spanish to realize that every word was basically punctuated with a swearword, lol.

But more seriously, this is also a symptom of another problem, which is ideological colonialism through the use of language. Or in other words, when somebody hears/reads you using their language, they also expect you to use their culture to communicate. For example, I was once "called out" by Americans on tumblr (sigh) for using the word "victim" rather than "survivor". However, in my culture we don't use that expression. In my culture, the word "victim" has not been "rebranded", and it even feels weird to us to conceptualize it that way. So when I use "victim", I'm simply using English words to express something through my own culture's lens. However, English speakers will expect me to also comply with their cultural norms and adjust my vocabulary to that. Like I said, this is a pretty blatant form of colonialism which uses the status of English as a lingua franca as a trojan horse to subtly introduce anglo-centric ideologies with it, and as such is something I reject categorically. I will use your language, yes, but I will nonetheless communicate my culture and my values with it, rather than adopt yours.

Anyway, I think this last part has gone on something of a tangent with regards to the rest of the discussion, so rant over.
« Last Edit: 25 Mar 2021, 12:37 by Laura Hunt »

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Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #556 on: 25 Mar 2021, 12:43 »
I don't think anyone here believes that there really is a western monoculture - the only people who actually think that are crazy ethno-nationalists. Even the term "West" is silly, because the planet is spherical.

But there are parts of the world where US and North European culture (more anglophone, more capitalist, more protestant) has more political and cultural influence. We can make an observation about (for instance) Walt Disney's influence in these areas, without approving of that influence, or suggesting that there actually is a clear delineation between West and East. Just like we can make observations about the construct of race without actually believing in race as a biological reality.

But more seriously, this is also a symptom of another problem, which is ideological colonialism through the use of language. Or in other words, when somebody hears/reads you using their language, they also expect you to use their culture to communicate. For example, I was once "called out" by Americans on tumblr (sigh) for using the word "victim" rather than "survivor". However, in my culture we don't use that expression. In my culture, the word "victim" has not been "rebranded", and it even feels weird to us to conceptualize it that way.

Having said that, I think this is a really good point.

Just think about how it is seen as very rude to curse in English and how women in particular never curse in English

And I guess I see your point about generalisations... because this is entirely not my experience of English speaking women in Britain.
« Last Edit: 25 Mar 2021, 12:50 by Ali »

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #557 on: 25 Mar 2021, 13:04 »
Just think about how it is seen as very rude to curse in English and how women in particular never curse in English

And I guess I see your point about generalisations... because this is entirely not my experience of English speaking women in Britain.

I'm going to have to agree with that. Some of the most creative swearing I've heard in my life has come from English/Irish/Scottish female friends and acquaintances :-D

Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #558 on: 25 Mar 2021, 17:36 »
I don't think anyone here believes that there really is a western monoculture - the only people who actually think that are crazy ethno-nationalists. Even the term "West" is silly, because the planet is spherical.

But there are parts of the world where US and North European culture (more anglophone, more capitalist, more protestant) has more political and cultural influence. We can make an observation about (for instance) Walt Disney's influence in these areas, without approving of that influence, or suggesting that there actually is a clear delineation between West and East. Just like we can make observations about the construct of race without actually believing in race as a biological reality.
This sounds like what I've been trying to say for a while now.

And no, I don't approve of USA and England exporting their culture at the expense of local ones, and I do agree on the problem with replacing "victim" with "survivor", which is no doubt influenced by the American tendency to equate victimhood with weakness,
and I hate how Swedes have started to import the sexist tradition of the father giving the bride away at the altar, a remnant from times when women were literally traded as property, and I despise seeing wannabe intellectuals analyzing Disney's version of Snow White
and Cinderella as if they were ancient myths and not Americanized adaptions of oral tales with multiple and rather different versions between nations, but at the same time, I don't think erasing the concept of the west from my vocabulary will make it go away,
and it was never intended as anything but a broad observation, and an attempt to acknowledge that not all the world is equally influenced by Disney and US pop culture. Had it been better if I had said that Disney has had a huge influence across all the world instead?
Just think about how it is seen as very rude to curse in English and how women in particular never curse in English

And I guess I see your point about generalisations... because this is entirely not my experience of English speaking women in Britain.

I'm going to have to agree with that. Some of the most creative swearing I've heard in my life has come from English/Irish/Scottish female friends and acquaintances :-D
I always thought swearing was largely a class marker in British culture, where it would be massively rude among the upper-middle class and posh families,
but not a big deal and often used casually among the working class, though it's just what I've heard and seen used in their media.  (roll)


Re: Bechdel test and other media analysis about discrimination
« Reply #559 on: 26 Mar 2021, 03:52 »
Disney produces many varied things, so sometimes it's not easy to remember which of what you've seen was actually made or published by Disney.
But when it comes to cartoons, I am definitely long time not its target audience. The last one I watched by intent was about Rapunzel and its from 2010. And before that - I can't even tell. If you count Pixar then probably "Wall-E", "Up" and "Monster Inc", if not then... damn... 1995th "Lion King"??
My favourite Disney's cartoon is still "Duck Tales" btw lol.

(Not a die-hard SW fan, but they annoyed me a good bit with their last SW trilogy.)

Recently I was genuinely wondering, in how many other countries people actually associate Disney with Mickey Mouse? Americans must know it because it's their official symbol (Disney's, ... but maybe America's too in a way).
But I cannot remember seeing a single film with Mickey Mouse except for pieces of "Fantasia".
I realized that don't even know if there's a Disneyland in Russia, so had to search for it and found they opened one in ... 2019.

If Disney culturally affected me in any way that was done by the 80-ies cartoons and films of the same time (they were running on our TV all the 90-ies).
Judging my feelings, when it comes to cartoons "Studio Ghibli" could've affected me many times much more. In Disney toons I loved their insane adventures, but it were "Ghibli"'s works where I was paying close attention to human characters.

So.... sorry for all the rambling, but I have no idea. Guess one would have to do a good research to find out how it affects people in particular country. Guess it helps if you have lots of relatives and friends with small kids to take notes.
PS. I have a little niece, but heard mostly references to some russian cartoons (like "Masha and the Bear") from her.
« Last Edit: 26 Mar 2021, 05:48 by Crimson Wizard »