Windows new service update!

Started by Slasher, Fri 12/03/2021 10:18:17

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Slasher

Aghhhh . Windows Update:   "Your version of Windows 10 will reach end of service soon. Click to download newer version of Windows 10 to stay supported."    Anyone done this?

Khris

The question is, why wouldn't you do that? You're supposed to keep Windows up-to-date, like any other app or OS.
Just turn on automatic updates.

WHAM

Quote from: Khris on Fri 12/03/2021 10:46:33
The question is, why wouldn't you do that? You're supposed to keep Windows up-to-date, like any other app or OS.
Just turn on automatic updates.

This. Unless one is working with a pay-per-megabit internet connection, I never understood why some people avoid software updates.
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Slasher

This was a different type of update: 2004.... I had heard people had trouble with it and it was not bug free.. Anyhow, updated and it seems fine...

Babar

Quote from: Khris on Fri 12/03/2021 10:46:33
The question is, why wouldn't you do that? You're supposed to keep Windows up-to-date, like any other app or OS.
Just turn on automatic updates.
I bothers me immensely when I'm just doing regular stuff, and then suddenly my computer demands to be restarted, with no other option.
Plus, I have to redo the removal of lots of the inbuilt windows spyware after every single update.
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Slasher

It has now wanted to install updates 3 times after restarting!

Blondbraid

I think what bothers me most is that all the updates don't even seem to do any difference, optimizing performance or anything that'd warrant the long loading times,
they just seem to slow my pc down before and for a short while afterward. I just don't get what they're doing.  (wrong)


Cassiebsg

Fixing bugs, installing more crap and sometimes breaking your system with their "improvement"...
I hate forced "automatic updates". All my software is set to "check, but ask me every time".
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

WHAM

Anyone can stop their Windows from updating if they really want. You can just kill off the Windows update service and force it to not work anymore.
You'll be happier for it precisely up until the point where some issue screws you over and you can only blame yourself for not having your operating system up to date.

I would not advise doing so, but hey: it's an option.
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Blondbraid

Quote from: WHAM on Fri 12/03/2021 20:06:42
Anyone can stop their Windows from updating if they really want. You can just kill off the Windows update service and force it to not work anymore.
You'll be happier for it precisely up until the point where some issue screws you over and you can only blame yourself for not having your operating system up to date.

I would not advise doing so, but hey: it's an option.
And that's the problem; you're not having a real choice, you're stuck between an awful default option or having your system fail if you refuse it.


WHAM

#10
Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 13/03/2021 09:20:38
And that's the problem; you're not having a real choice, you're stuck between an awful default option or having your system fail if you refuse it.

It's a real choise just like taking your car to get its oil and filters changed every year is. Sure, the car might run for years without doing it, and it might feel kind of like a pointless waste of time, but you have every right to make that call if you want.

Think of this from Microsofts point of view: if they did not push the updates, and some attack against a vulnerability in Windows stole peoples data, ruined lives and wrecked finances all over the world out of the blue, how many lawsuits do you think they'd be facing? How many claims for damages because "they could have done something, but didn't".

This is something we were actually kind of taught in IT class back in the day: IT and software support and maintenance work is always thankless. If you do something and everything goes to plan, people think you are a waste of time. If you don't do anything and something goes wrong, people will fault you for not doing anything. Software updates are exactly the same.

EDIT: Besides, it's mostly a matter of "how is it meant to be used". Workstation operating systems are expected to be shut down at the end of the day, which allows them to install updates during the shutdown / startup process. Even server side operating systems are usually rebooted once every 1 or 2 weeks to install updates and keep them up to date. If you're running your home computer for 2+ weeks straight without a reboot, it's not really how this particular software product is meant to be used.
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Cassiebsg

#11
Sure, just take the option of choice away.
No matter if you're in a meeting/presentation for 2 hours and your computer/laptop just shutdown on it's own for an update... for the next 1,5 hours!  >:( (this is not a hypothetical case, it happened to me!)

PS - Plus, if you're on a laptop and shut it down cause you're almost out of battery, you really don't want windows updating at that time...

PPS - And I'm sure it's a serious security risk, that people were playing the inbuilt windows cards game offline. "Oh no, that can't be! We can't push our adds, lets just update and make it so it can only be played online!" Result? Waste of space on the HD, and me installing the old version (win 7) of the games.  (roll)
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AGA

You can choose not to install updates.  You can also choose to uninstall specific updates once they're installed.  They just don't make it obvious how to do it, since millions (if not billions) of people use Windows, and the vast majority of them don't know very much about computers (as this thread has proven...).

No company in the world is going to have an indefinitely long warranty period for old software, and if you want your system to be relatively secure and stable you have to live with keeping things up to date.  Or just use an older generation of every software, and be really surprised when someone uses the security flaws it almost certainly has to hack you.

Danvzare

Quote from: Babar on Fri 12/03/2021 16:37:15
Quote from: Khris on Fri 12/03/2021 10:46:33
The question is, why wouldn't you do that? You're supposed to keep Windows up-to-date, like any other app or OS.
Just turn on automatic updates.
I bothers me immensely when I'm just doing regular stuff, and then suddenly my computer demands to be restarted, with no other option.
Plus, I have to redo the removal of lots of the inbuilt windows spyware after every single update.
I've heard countless similar stories, but never had that problem myself, as I always set it up to download updates automatically but let me choose when to install them. Which essentially means the computer only updates when I turn it off.
As such I've literally never had Windows tell me it needs to restart. My anti-virus software has a few times, but never Windows itself.

WHAM

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Sat 13/03/2021 11:55:22
Sure, just take the option of choice away.
No matter if you're in a meeting/presentation for 2 hours and your computer/laptop just shutdown on it's own for an update... for the next 1,5 hours!  >:( (this is not a hypothetical case, it happened to me!)

PS - Plus, if you're on a laptop and shut it down cause you're almost out of battery, you really don't want windows updating at that time...

PPS - And I'm sure it's a serious security risk, that people were playing the inbuilt windows cards game offline. "Oh no, that can't be! We can't push our adds, lets just update and make it so it can only be played online!" Result? Waste of space on the HD, and me installing the old version (win 7) of the games.  (roll)

The forced reboot only happens if you haven't rebooted and installed updates for a very long time, so that seems like it'd be your own fault for not having taken care of the issue before. My guess is you most likely just always hit "later" when Windows suggests it needs to update, as that would definitely result in the scenario you describe. Same for the low power situation, as it implies either poor planning or just very bad luck. The latter we all have, sometimes, but being upset about that is no different that being upset that you ran out of gas on the highway because the fuel station you're user to visiting was out of order this time. And if you were just playing a card game offline, this would also not be an issue, since if you were always offline you'd never have updates to install. Not really sure what you were trying to get at with that one?

A home PC or laptop is designed around the idea of being shut down for the night, at the end of a user session, and not kept on or active 24/7. Even in corporate environments shutdowns are required on a regular basis, by any IT department worth its salt, to ensure up-to-date software systems.
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Cassiebsg

Why do I even bother?
It pointless, if you can't understand the simple option of choice.  (wrong)
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

WHAM

Like I said before, it's a matter of limiting liability for them.
A lot of people will just keep clicking "later" forever and ever if you let them do that. And if you let them do that, if the proverbial turd ever hits the fan, you will be blamed for having designed an unsafe product, and the worst-case result might be countless lives ruined. Sure, for the few people trying to delay their updates forever and a day, having them forced on them at a bad time will be upsetting every now and then, but in the broader picture the damage done is far lesser than the alternate could be.
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Galen

Windows would be better decoupling security updates from feature updates when possible. As it is, I definitely want to keep my computer secure, unfortunately 2004 just plain won't install. Seems like Intel Management Engine is fubar on my computer (BlueScreen Viewers indicate this is the problem, and attempting to manually update it also bluescreens). I can only assume 2004 is bundled with some updated IME? Don't really want to reformat my shit, nor do I want to risk diving deep into installing IME if that means the install might not be able to roll back safetly. So eternally delaying this update it is. Actually, googling it to see if there's a fix yet it seems it's a specific combination of my CPU and motherboard, so it's likely not even a reformat or BIOS update would fix it. Joy. https://borncity.com/win/2021/02/21/windows-10-2004-20h2-update-fails-due-to-intel-management-engine/

Decouple that crap, Microsoft. I'd hate to imagine I'm missing important security hotfixes as a result.

AGA

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Sat 13/03/2021 22:03:37
Why do I even bother?
It pointless, if you can't understand the simple option of choice.  (wrong)

You have the choice (same thing should work on any version of Windows).

Cassiebsg

Thanks, will try it next time I turn the laptop on, probably in a month or so.

Though, it's still not really a "choice", it's a hassle and a lot of complicated steeps /there's 40 pages to that problem!), that I wouldn't be able to take or find out on my own.  A real choice would be "Turn this service off" and "check but let me decide when to update (and which ones to install, like Win7 did)".
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

AGA

Again, that comes down to trying to prevent as many of their users as possible from making the wrong decision.  The problem is solved on page one of that thread, I'd assume the rest is people who believe what you do complaining about being made to do something slightly technical to get what they want.

Bear in mind though that Microsoft is an American company.  Not even Bill Gates can afford a million Americans suing him because he made is easy for them to compromise the integrity of their computer!

Cassiebsg

#21
Uhm, am I wrong, or in all those years that MS had that option in win7, nobody sued it claiming they "made  it easy for them to compromise the integrity of their computer!"

Also, the guy complains the service just gets re-enabled on page 1.
There seems to be a solution on page 2 though, but haven't read all to figure out if it still works or MS has "fixed it".
There are those who believe that life here began out there...

Blondbraid

Quote from: Cassiebsg on Mon 15/03/2021 20:29:27
Uhm, am I wrong, or in all those years that MS had that option in win7, nobody sued it claiming they "made  it easy for them to compromise the integrity of their computer!"
True that!

I miss Windows 7...


Danvzare

Quote from: AGA on Mon 15/03/2021 20:07:48
Again, that comes down to trying to prevent as many of their users as possible from making the wrong decision.  The problem is solved on page one of that thread, I'd assume the rest is people who believe what you do complaining about being made to do something slightly technical to get what they want.

Bear in mind though that Microsoft is an American company.  Not even Bill Gates can afford a million Americans suing him because he made is easy for them to compromise the integrity of their computer!
Hmm. I disagree. I wouldn't be surprised if they've claimed that's the reason. But I don't believe that is the actual reason. Especially as Cassie said, no one was ever sued before.
If I had to take a guess, I think it's because they want more control over their product.

WHAM

Quote from: Danvzare on Tue 16/03/2021 14:49:08
If I had to take a guess, I think it's because they want more control over their product.

Could well be true, and it'd make sense too. As someone who works for a software company, I know first hand how much of a pain in the arse it can be to try and provide support for a wide range of old versions, when you have a number of users simply refusing to upgrade to newer versions out of sheer stubbornness. Funnily enough, people still expect their software to work, even if they don't do anything to maintain it, which makes just as much sense as expecting your car to work if you never take it in for maintenance. It will keep working, until it won't. And when some old version ends up failing as other software running parallel with it change too much, one can only guess where the finger of blame on the forums and tech support sites ends up pointing again.

There is a lot to be said about having as much of the userbase running the same version, preferably the latest one.
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deadsuperhero

Quote from: WHAM on Fri 12/03/2021 12:14:43
Quote from: Khris on Fri 12/03/2021 10:46:33
The question is, why wouldn't you do that? You're supposed to keep Windows up-to-date, like any other app or OS.
Just turn on automatic updates.

This. Unless one is working with a pay-per-megabit internet connection, I never understood why some people avoid software updates.
Part of the problem is laziness, but a larger part of the issue is...compatibility breaks. For example, in the macOS world, it's not entirely uncommon for entire applications to break because core APIs have seemingly suddenly changed. despite the effort of app developers to track changes from one beta release of an OS to the next.
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WHAM

Huh, I wasn't aware that sort of thing was still a major issue in the Mac world.
Gotta hand it to Microsoft in this area, they've been doing some miraculous work when it comes to ensuring backwards compatibility.



The fact that you can still run stuff from the very first versions of Windows in Windows 10 is impressive, if not all that practical in most cases.
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Blondbraid



fire7side

I had an update about a year ago and after it was finished it took about 7 minutes to boot up.  I checked the internet, tried a few options which didn't work, then took the last one which was a reset.  I lost all my installed software but none of my personal files.  Worked like a charm.  Boots up fast and a lot of that old software wasn't being used anyway so it didn't get reinstalled.

Khris

I had a bad experience once where after a bigger update a Win 10 laptop absolutely refused to recognize the touchpad. I had to revert it to basic mode in the BIOS settings, meaning it was usable again to point and click but I could no longer scroll with two fingers and the like. Very annoying if you take it over to the couch without an external mouse and keep trying to scroll and nothing happens.

I spent about two hours trying to fix this and once again cursed the fact that laptop manufacturers put hardware from multiple different companies in one and the same model of laptop and it's up to you to figure out which bluetooth radio, WiFi card or touchpad exactly is in the device in front of you. It still doesn't work to this day. Curiously, I know a second person who owns that exact same laptop, and their updates ran without any touchpad issues ???

I'm also still puzzled by a UX choice such as this:


What happens if I click that Restart now button? Am I going to break my system? I kind of doubt it but I'm also afraid of trying it.
Something like that should never happen.

And there's still a horrible translation error in the German version of the Update settings, where an on/off option label about restarting the device as soon as possible after a bigger update reads like a request by windows instead. ("Restart the device ..." -> "Starten Sie das Gerät [...] neu ...")

It also looks like when you shutdown your computer in the middle of an update, Windows goes into hibernation instead. This makes sense obviously, but it's not actively communicated in any way.

Long story short: I get people's skepticism about Windows updates. Should you still keep Windows up-to-date? Yes. Should you keep around an old laptop or tablet in case the update fails and your system goes tits up? Also yes.

WHAM

Quote from: Khris on Fri 26/03/2021 09:32:28
It also looks like when you shutdown your computer in the middle of an update, Windows goes into hibernation instead. This makes sense obviously, but it's not actively communicated in any way.

I actually learned about this recently, and wasn't aware: by default Windows has a power option called "fast boot" enabled. What this does in effect is that Windows never actually shuts down, even when you tell it to. It always just goes into hibernate mode and just doesn't tell you about it. I'd always selected "shut down" every evening when I stop using my computer but found out I had several weeks of uptime in my task manager, telling me the OS never actually shut itself down.
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