To eat or not eat meat

Started by Slasher, Fri 23/07/2021 06:33:46

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Slasher

Ever since I can remember I have eaten meat....

For the past few years I have been concerned about weather it is right or wrong for animals to be slaughtered for food on a commercial basis..

Some say meat is part of a humans natural diet whilst others say we can obtain the protein we need from other things such as nuts...

This concern is probably why many are turning vegan..

I also worry what would happen if animals were of no longer use to farmers (except for milk, wool etc)....Farmers would surely suffer financially etc..

What are your views on eating meatless diets.. do you think it is the right thing to do or is meat a necessity of life?

Concerned......


arj0n

Quote from: Slasher on Fri 23/07/2021 06:33:46
Ever since I can remember I have eaten meat....
me too, but not on a daily base though.

Quote from: Slasher
For the past few years I have been concerned about weather it is right or wrong for animals to be slaughtered for food on a commercial basis..
IMO it is definitely wrong. It became an industry (for a long time already) with no respect to the animals.

Quote from: Slasher
Some say meat is part of a humans natural diet whilst others say we can obtain the protein we need from other things such as nuts...

This concern is probably why many are turning vegan..
That's something else. It's ok to be vegan, but I thing there's also nothing wrong with eating meat. As long as one doesn't eat XXL portions and not on a daily bases.
Also, everyone should by it from a reliable source instead of 'as much as possible for as cheap as possible'.
People often say the government should do something about the supermarkets selling cheap meat. I think that's the other way around. People should not buy such meat. Simple.

Quote from: Slasher
I also worry what would happen if animals were of no longer use to farmers (except for milk, wool etc)....Farmers would surely suffer financially etc..
No, the farmers aren't the real problem, so they should still exist. It's the industry around it kept alive by the greedy people who want much for almost nothing...

if everyone who wants to eat meat just:
- buy less
- buy better quality
- want to pay a normal price (no cheap meat)
- buy from a source that guarantees the animals had a normal life
- buy from a source that guarantees the animals aren't been slaughtered in a way that is pure torture.

Just my 2 cents  :)

Khris

Meat is not a necessity but it's just so damn tasty :P

My stance is I try and only buy "organic" meat. They have a 1-4 scale here in Germany on pre-packaged meat, and I simply only buy the more expensive 4 meats, which basically means the animals are treated well. Or directly at the butcher's, which I assume is also kind of ok. I hope.
I also try to eat less meat; it's mostly pasta, veggies, fish and sandwiches for me.

You don't have to decide between being a BBQ fiend and going vegan, obviously.

Honza

I eat it, but have occasionally been feeling like a hypocrite about it ever since I stumbled upon this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcVR2OVxPYw

Quote from: arj0n on Fri 23/07/2021 08:13:03
- buy from a source that guarantees the animals had a normal life
- buy from a source that guarantees the animals aren't been slaughtered in a way that is pure torture.

Do you really do this on a day to day basis? How do you manage? I get it when you're buying raw meat for cooking, but what about eating out and buying ready-made stuff? Salami on pizza, the meatballs in your soup, things like that? I should make more effort to look into this, but I'm guessing avoiding products of animal suffering without going full vegan is actually pretty hard.

cat

I used to eat meat but not on a daily base. More than 10 years ago, I move to a region where the motto is "if there is no meat in it, it doesn't count as meal". After some time this annoyed me so much, I decided to eat no meat at all for the next month. It may sound weird, but I felt so liberated from the pressure to eat meat, that I still stick to it. I still eat fish and jelly and wear leather shoes, but I don't eat meat. I recently had one of those fake veggie burger patties and didn't like it, because it tasted just like meat. For me, it is mainly about taste and health and animal wellfare is what I call "collateral benefit".

From time to time I try to reduce fish for environmental reasons, but this is very hard for me because I like it so much.


I think arj0n and Khris made a good point: Try to eat less meat but of better quality.

Slasher

#5
Thank you guys.....

You've certainly made some very valid points for me to consider...

The video from Honza really hit home! I would hate to know an animal suffered just to satisfy my hunger!

Like Khris and arj0n mentioned: I will only buy the better cuts from the butchers rather than prepacked frozen from Iceland. though my budget is quite low..I will also reduce the amount I buy... I recently supported the stopping of pig cruelty..

I thought I would give this a try for the next fortnight and see how I get on (with one meat dish a week-from a good source):

A WEEK OF *REALISTIC* VEGAN DINNERS 🍔🌿
https://youtu.be/5WHlcdRcGbk

Fingers crossed...

Your vegan recipes welcome..

Thank you so much guys  (nod)

milkanannan

Some friends of my wife and I are from a province of India called Gujarat, which is a ‘veg’ province (as they call it). Gujarat dishes are so incredibly tasty that you’d never even notice you’re not eating meat. If you like Indian food (lol stupid question everyone does), try googling ‘Gujarat recipes’ for and endless list of cool dish ideas.

Wife and I have always been meat eaters but have cut most of it out as we’ve got older, and I’m like you slasher I’m working towards a more compassionate way of eating. We eat red meat 3-4 times a month. It’s mostly fish and shrimp now and often just tofu and mushrooms (surprisingly high source of protein).  Still eat lots of eggs though.

Slasher

Quote from: milkanannan on Sat 24/07/2021 13:27:43
Some friends of my wife and I are from a province of India called Gujarat, which is a ‘veg’ province (as they call it). Gujarat dishes are so incredibly tasty that you’d never even notice you’re not eating meat. If you like Indian food (lol stupid question everyone does), try googling ‘Gujarat recipes’ for and endless list of cool dish ideas.

Wife and I have always been meat eaters but have cut most of it out as we’ve got older, and I’m like you slasher I’m working towards a more compassionate way of eating. We eat red meat 3-4 times a month. It’s mostly fish and shrimp now and often just tofu and mushrooms (surprisingly high source of protein).  Still eat lots of eggs though.
Excellent... looking at Gujarat recipes  (nod)

Danvzare

#8
Quote from: Slasher on Fri 23/07/2021 06:33:46
For the past few years I have been concerned about weather it is right or wrong for animals to be slaughtered for food on a commercial basis..
Oh it's definitely wrong.  (nod)
I've heard all of the arguments for vegetarianism and veganism, and they're all sound arguments that I wholeheartedly agree with. Ranging from the moral implications, the health reasons, to the efficiency reasons. They have a lot of sound arguments.
But at the risk of sounding like a total psychopath, I simply don't care. As long as it's not my own pet that I'm eating, I'll gladly eat another animal.  (nod)
Maybe' it's because none of those reasons have an effect on my moral philosophy.  ???

Like everyone says though, even if you do eat meat, you shouldn't eat loads of it every day. Not only are there the obvious moral implications, but there's also obvious health reasons. Variety is the spice of life as they say.

Also, to add to this conversation, my sister is a pescatarian (the only meat she'll eat is fish), so I've eaten a lot of vegetarian food. It's quite nice.
The reason she's a pescatarian isn't for any moral reasons though. She'll gladly eat bacon if given the chance. The reason she's a pescatarian is because she's allergic to something in the meat, and it makes her feel unwell (so in other words, make sure you don't let her see some cooked bacon). The thing is, her boyfriend's mother has the same thing, and I talk to someone online whose girlfriend also has the same problem. So it's clearly not that uncommon.

Ali

I don't eat meat, but I think there are a lot of extremely bad arguments made for and against.

I am persuaded by the moral argument that animals don't want to be eaten, so we shouldn't eat them, whenever possible. The health argument is, for me, the weakest. I'm a vegan, but a vegan diet is not the healthiest diet imaginable. It does not, as people on the internet will claim, detox your body or cure cancer. Health-fad veganism tends towards a semi-religious obsession with bodily purity, and I think it encourages disordered eating. The most broadly persuasive argument, for me, is that we all need to eat a lot less meat for environmental reasons. Plant-based diets are much more sustainable (not without environmental impact, of course) and so everyone who can cut down on meat should, even if they have no thought of becoming vegetarian.

It's tricky, because we prefer to imagine that what's good is good. Eating meat is wrong, so being vegan must be healthier - not necessarily. Battery farming is unethical so it must be worse for the environment - unfortunately, not necessarily. Organic beef farming does not seem to have a smaller environmental impact.

Babar

I don't have an intrinsic moral opposition to eating meat,  but current meat industry practices don't seem very moral to me. When I lived on or near farms, I had meat more often, but now in a city with only one small scale, reasonable abattoir I am aware of, aside from seafood (which I eat about maybe once a week) I eat meat maybe once or twice a month. Still, I'm cowardly and easily swayed by peer pressure, so I don't put up too much of a fuss when I eat out (that hasn't been in a while, though)- if the restaurant doesn't make any point about ethically sourced meat (which they usually don't), my preference is (balanced) vegetarian, seafood, then meat.
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Spelaeologist

A poll on this might turn out interesting...

cat

When doing a BBQ, I usually eat Halloumi cheese. But I've heard that it has a very bad environmental footprint, so I'm looking for alternatives. I love grilled veggies and bread, but are there any suggestions for protein-rich things apart from fake-meats that I could use?

Oh, and I'll take a look at Gujarat cuisine, sounds awesome!

Danvzare

Quote from: cat on Mon 26/07/2021 08:41:39
When doing a BBQ, I usually eat Halloumi cheese. But I've heard that it has a very bad environmental footprint, so I'm looking for alternatives. I love grilled veggies and bread, but are there any suggestions for protein-rich things apart from fake-meats that I could use?

Oh, and I'll take a look at Gujarat cuisine, sounds awesome!
Nuts and bugs both have tons of protein.
Unfortunately, most people have an adversity to eating bugs (including me), despite them being safer to eat than meat.

Babar

Quote from: Danvzare on Mon 26/07/2021 11:48:24
Nuts and bugs both have tons of protein.
Unfortunately, most people have an adversity to eating bugs (including me), despite them being safer to eat than meat.
While the enivironmental footprint is way smaller, I'm pretty sure bugs are still "meat".

Chickpeas, beans, lentils, pulses, mushrooms, soybeans, tempeh all are great sources of protein. You can use their derivatives (e.g. gram flour) to make some great barbequed or fried snacks. For example, I batter whatever vegetables I have in the fridge in gram flour, and bake (it's meant to be deep-fried, but that would be too much for me) to get a great assortment of snacks.
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cat

Quote from: Babar on Mon 26/07/2021 14:54:01
Quote from: Danvzare on Mon 26/07/2021 11:48:24
Nuts and bugs both have tons of protein.
Unfortunately, most people have an adversity to eating bugs (including me), despite them being safer to eat than meat.
While the enivironmental footprint is way smaller, I'm pretty sure bugs are still "meat".
Yes, and they would certainly fall through the rack.

Quote
Chickpeas, beans, lentils, pulses, mushrooms, soybeans, tempeh all are great sources of protein. You can use their derivatives (e.g. gram flour) to make some great barbequed or fried snacks. For example, I batter whatever vegetables I have in the fridge in gram flour, and bake (it's meant to be deep-fried, but that would be too much for me) to get a great assortment of snacks.
Interesting!

Honza

#16
Quote from: Babar on Mon 26/07/2021 14:54:01
While the enivironmental footprint is way smaller, I'm pretty sure bugs are still "meat".

For me, the most compelling argument against meat-eating is that the brain architecture devoted to experiencing physical pain and even some basic types of emotional distress is essentially the same in humans and at least the mammals we eat (not so sure about fish and birds). So while some animal rights sentiments can be naively anthropomorphic, this one is pretty real - what animals experience in factory farms is quite similar to how people would feel in the same situation. Which is pretty horrifying when you think about it for a while.

None of this applies to bugs in any way. You can smash bugs left and right and you haven't caused any real pain to anyone. Counting them as "meat" would be the naively anthropomorphic bit.

Babar

#17
Quote from: Honza on Tue 27/07/2021 06:08:54
For me, the most compelling argument against meat-eating is that the brain architecture devoted to experiencing physical pain and even some basic types of emotional distress is essentially the same in humans and at least the mammals we eat (not so sure about fish and birds). So while some animal rights sentiments can be naively anthropomorphic, this one is pretty real - what animals experience in factory farms is quite similar to how people would feel in the same situation. Which is pretty horrifying when you think about it for a while.

None of this applies to bugs in any way. You can smash bugs left and right and you haven't caused any real pain to anyone. Counting them as "meat" would be the naively anthropomorphic bit.
Interesting. Is that the criteria you would set, then? "They feel the way we feel, so we shouldn't eat them" (yum yum to all the reptiles, fish, insects and plants)?

I've seen people justify their revulsion to eating things like dogs and cats "Because they are intelligent", but that discounts similarly intelligent pigs and goats and such.
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Khris

It hasn't been brought up yet: artificial meat. Can't wait to try those. They can't be worse than vegan bratwurst.

Danvzare

Quote from: Babar on Mon 26/07/2021 14:54:01
Quote from: Danvzare on Mon 26/07/2021 11:48:24
Nuts and bugs both have tons of protein.
Unfortunately, most people have an adversity to eating bugs (including me), despite them being safer to eat than meat.
While the enivironmental footprint is way smaller, I'm pretty sure bugs are still "meat".
Agreed, but they don't really fall into any of the arguments I've heard for why you should go Vegetarian or even Vegan.
For example, like Honza said, they're not even complex enough to properly feel pain. I mean, sure they kinda can, but plants also kinda can. Besides, I'm pretty sure even Vegans will gladly kill a fly buzzing around their house or exterminate ants that have made their way into their kitchen.

Quote from: Babar on Tue 27/07/2021 08:10:07
Interesting. Is that the criteria you would set, then? "They feel the way we feel, so we shouldn't eat them" (yum yum to all the reptiles and insects and plants)?
Pretty much. I mean, it is the main moral reason isn't it? (Although like I said, insects don't really qualify for any or the arguments I've heard for vegetarinism, from health, environment, morally, or other stuff.)
But personally I think the argument of suffering can still be applied to reptiles, bird, and fish. Probably even arachnids based on what I've seen. But insects and plants. They're fair game. If not, then I guess the only morally correct thing to eat is bacteria and single-cell organisms.  (laugh)

Quote from: Khris on Tue 27/07/2021 08:25:26
It hasn't been brought up yet: artificial meat. Can't wait to try those. They can't be worse than vegan bratwurst.
Same.  (nod)

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