Yufster HATE Thread.

[Helm]

"Everybody should be calm, and follow rules. That's what communism is about."


I posted that Yufster thread a week ago and then left for a vacation with family. There was a pool. It was nice. I got sunburnt and bored, but I read 2 and a half books. Then I came back here, and decided to track my old thread, so I at least knew what happened because of me.

And then I read this line. And then I felt compelled to post and let you, Yufster, know that I think simply keeping your comments to a tolerable minimum simply won't do. I think you should altogether stop posting. In fact, if that's not a viable option, I suggest cutting out your eyes with a rusty spoon and then start typing with your nose, for that would produce less nonsense than you currently produce, and ultimately less agrivation for anyone with a brain that happens to frequent this forum.  Words cannot express how absolutely moronic that statement was, and I frequent I-mockery.net, so I've heard my share of completely rediculous political statements there, and this one simply ranks up there along with some of the worst of them. Thing is, I go to I-mockery for different reasons than I bother to come here.

In closing, I fervently wish - besides for the immediate and acutely painful accident that would result in your dismemberment - that since such occurance is highly improbable, you in the future take the time to think things over before you in such a blatantly biased way critisize a political system you're obviously completely unfamiliar with. It would also pay if you did that in a thread that had at least something to do with politics. To state that x is bad because it's like communism, so communism is bad simply makes me want to burst out into bitter laughter, and - as an afterthought - just shake my head and want to leave here.

Understand that this is not so much about the validity of your statement (which I would challenge fully if this was the first time I felt the urge to do so) but rather the voicing of a painful understanding of a fact I've for a long time suspected was true: this is not the company I wish for myself. To communicate with this class of person is not what I chose when I first came on to the boards. And thusly I dully leave from the general general and AGS chitchat boards indefinately. My HATE towards you and your extravagant ignorance being the last thing I wish to underline before I go.

[Las Naranjas]

I never get to reply to threads before they are locked.
So "Hey mum, hey dad! and bill and geoff and..."

[Miez]

Bloody hell, Helm - I can understand you being annoyed with Yufster (many people were), but starting a thread with "*** HATE thread" just goes too far. Have a little decency.

[SSH]

I do hope that this is highly ironic and that I've missed it. I contributed to the other thread of "calm down a bit Yufster" comments and I think it went too far in itself. Let's see the damage in this battle so far:

Yufster: comes onlione and finds a bunch of people moaning about hewr and feels a bit hurt but handles it with ironic humour. Now will soon find someone expressing hate about her and violent thoughts!

Helm: Has maybe missed some nuggets of wisdom because Yufster posted a lot and now has been accused (along with others and quite possibly ironically) of the terrible crime of being part of a far-left idealistic political party.

Well, I know who I think is the one who has suffered most.

[Adamski]

...but rather the voicing of a painful understanding of a fact I've for a long time suspected was true: this is not the company I wish for myself.

Unfortuantly, I believe this is the case for a few others around here. And I think we've reached a point where enough is enough for some people.

CJ, you may relieve my post of moderator and hand it to someone else.

[Vel]

*Vel watches the epic battle

[n3tgraph]

hmmm

things aren't going in the right direction this way......

* N3TGraph sings a john lennon song

[Flippy_D]

Enough is enough?

Hmm. Interesting.

Now I know that being a moderator is stressful. Hell, I should know, I am one elsewhere. I know that putting up with someone you don't particuarly like can be annoying. I know when you have to bear with someone who doesn't quite follow the example, it can grate on the nerves.

I also know that as a community this is one of the best and strongest on the internet.

AGS, from my own knowledge, has seen it's fair share of calamaties and strife, but what community doesn't? The thing that makes us different is that we bear through it. In fact, this post is hypocritical because my point is we should not take these events so seriously.
How long has AGS been in existence? 5 years or so? In that time the community has continually outdone itself. It has grown, spawned hundreds of games dozens of which are of exceptional quality, and most of all kept a strong fanbase of committed members.

The thing is, we are so used to the usually idyllic settings here, that when a crisis happens or someone disrupts the usual friendly atmosphere, we take it too hard.

If Helm wants to take some leave from two of the boards, he's within his right to do so. If DS feels it's time to step down, so be it. What we don't need is to blow the whole thing out of proportion and get everyone generally depressed.

This is not the end of the world, just like it wasn't the last 10 times something of this magnitude happened.

Peace out has a whole new meaning.

[PeaceMan]

Come on here people. I came here to get away from these types of arguments and annoyances. Let me get this straight. I don't like the average person in the street because they act like complete dicks. They think it's funny to piss people off and annoy them for no reason but they don't want to do what they do or like the things that they do. I have been on the reciving end of a few of these. But here I've found that there are people who aren't complete assholes and you can get on with them. If you dislike someone isn't it best to show your anger with something a little more refined than "I want you to be dismembered"?

I don't hate anyone here because I've found them to be people who get on with others and don't take the piss because they find it amusing.

Yufster may get a bit OTT at points but thats no reason to wish harm upon her. She's a person like all of us here and hasen't directly tried to put anyone down so can you ease off her a bit.

[Nellie]

Yufster started a lot of intelligent, enthusiastic and within-the-rules threads, that received a lot of similarly intelligent replies.  Despite this, her frequent posting led you to publicly (though politely) ask her to calm down.  Some forum members agreed with this, though others (including me, though I didn't post in that thread), thought it was unecessary.  On hearing that on top of this slight public censure, she'd also been banned from IRC (for what I don't know) she presumably felt a bit hard done by, and so gave a parting shot about the oppresiveness of communism.

But - whoops! - real communism isn't like that.  So her comment is clearly a justification for you to call her moronic, wish for her dismemberment (clearly not seriously, but unpleasantly enough anyway), and say she's not of the 'class' of person you want to communicate with.

I didn't find Yufsters comment moronic.  Heck, I've made jokes about the oppression of communist regimes myself, while knowing full well that this isn't the intention of genuine communism.  To be outraged by her comment rather than brush it off seems a huge over-reaction to me.  Even if it's not, the rudeness you show to another forum member in the message of your post, no matter how angry you are, is clearly out of line.

Helm, I respect you, I find your talent massively impressive and I would be gutted if you left the community over something like this.  Seriously, try to put it in a little perspective and think again.

[|Alky|]

"Everybody should be calm, and follow rules. That's what communism is about."

As everybody with any sorta education knows, that's not true, but, I have to admit, I found it funny...

People have different senses of humour, and while you may have not been impressed with the whole 'avatar in a straightjacket joke', partially since it was directed against the thread telling Yufster that it would be good if she (to use the internet terminology) were to 'STFU!'.

[Hobbes]

A HATE thread?  :o Come on, that's excessive. If you really feel this strongly about someone, sort it out personally. If that fails, contact your fellow moderators.

Tact is a delicate thing, and I fear it has been lost here. Helm, I love your artwork, but your personal aspect has just plummeted. Calm down, please.

[Raggit]

Helm, this is pratically a threat letter.  Wich, by the way, is illeagle.

While I can't understand what Yufster has done, you should talk to CJ or to Yufster directly and quit trying to build up a 'torch and pitchfork' mob to run Yufster away.

But maybe you hadn't noticed, Yufster changed her ways ever since that restraining order. Even her profile changed.  Maybe you didn't know becuase you were gone, but try and have a little tolerence.

Hey, suppose I went and started a Helm HATE thread?? Just becuase I don't like the way YOU'RE behaving. It wouldn't be right would it? So as I'm telling you to do, so should I do myself and have tolerence.

Live and let live Helm.

[Paranoia]

it amaze how people get so pissed on here, not just this forum but everywhere, FFS it words on a computer screen,  if you don't like it ..just don't read it! i find her quite witty, ok she goes a bit OTT every now and again, but its all in good fun, how can you hate someone you don't even know, ever met, even likely to? ok i don't go in chat so i don't see what goes on there but personally i think helm's cutting his nose off to spite his face,and  been a bit of a drama queen..

Paranoia

[undergroundling]

Dude...if I was a moderator, I'd so kick your ass right now.

[RickJ]

It's really interesting how intolerant we can be.  Why do we find it necessary to enage in persopnal attacks on peole who voice opinions different than our own?  

It seems I have missed a lot, but when I have come across Yuster's postings I found them to be unique and intersting.  I hope she stays around and doesn't give up.  

Cheers
Rick

[AGA]

Although I don't necessarily agree with Helm's opinion of Yufster (I've been on holiday and haven't read any of Yufster's posts), I do admire his honesty.

There are a lot of members on these forums that I personally can't stand. I've never confronted any of them and told them how I feel. It takes a brave person to tell somebody outright that they dislike/hate them. Maybe if we all were as honest, the more 'annoying' forum members would curb their irritating behaviour and everyone would get on much better...

[miguel]

I agree with RickJ, worse then telling people what we think without thinking first,  is having somebody wanting to desmember you if he doesnt like what he hears. By the way, that's what Staline did.

[Miez]

There is a fine line between telling someone what you think about them (be it positive or negative) and being downright insulting and verbally aggressive. In my opinion Helm crossed that line.

[undergroundling]

I think Helm should have dealt with this in a more mature fashion and PMed Yufster and explained his issues with her rather than flaming her in public on the boards.  Not only was that rude and immature, but probably a little hurtful as well.

[Ben]

I ususlly ignore the little tantrums people throw here.


And I'll probably wish I hadn't said that.

[Trapezoid]

Geez Helm... you commie.

[MillsJROSS]

I think Helm is just exagerating. He doesn't hate Yufster. He doesn't want to dismember her. If anyone honestly thinks that Helm is completly serious in his post, than they need to reread it a couple of times. It's mean...I'll agree. But I won't tell him he's wrong, because his point is valid to everyone. We need to think before we post, even comments that we just throw out there and never consider to be offensive, might rub the person the wrong way.

-MillsJROSS

[Trapezoid]

So you think Helm is making a long, half-serious rant about a quick joke Yufster made several days ago? I guess that makes sense. But that puts Helm lower than Yufster on the Self-Censorship scale...

[Vel]

AGA, I have to agree with you. Personally I dont dislike anyone here, but If I did, the way I'd tell him would be exactly the way helm did that. Not a single sweraing word in the whole post! And also a stress on WHY does he hate her. Bravo, Helm, for your valiance and dignity!

[Ben]

Obviously there's some irony in Helm's post. But that doesn't make it any less insulting or any more rational. The snobbery and disrespect is still real.

[Scummbuddy]

Dark S, I hope you weren't serious and I hope you are not leaving.

[PeaceMan]

Didn't you find that post disturbing enough without swearing? Swearing in a post adds no impact, its the words contained in it.

I don't call wanting to cause harm to someone "getting the point across". It's more likely to drive someone over the edge.

Mills: I doubt that it was a joke. Even though a joke can get intense that was too far.  

[Raggit]

Yes, if you have an issue with somebody you should confront them (enless it is totally frivolous.)

But this is NOT the way to do it. This will only make the situation worse, and grant temporary satisfaction to the posters hateful side.  Helm, if you hate Yufster so bad, talk it over with her and don't rave on and on publically about her traits that annoy you.

MillsjRoss:  If Helm wanted to make a point about thinking before we post, why doesn't he address all of us insted of singling out Yufster? If he seriously felt that way, why'd he post this stupid thread in the first place? This is more useless than any of Yufster's recent posts.  All this is for is to hurt her.  Yufster isn't trying to hurt Helm.  

I hope she doesn't give in to him and just totally take off. She's a nice person.  It's just when she makes jokes she doesn't use the same approach as we do.

However, I DO believe we need to think before we post. We should also learn to hold our tounges.

[Trapezoid]

Regarding Dark Stalkey, If he is really leaving, then I think he is seriously taking the quality of this community for granted.   If AGSforums isn't good company, I'd like to know what is.

[Flippy_D]

I don't think DS is leaving, just resigning from his moderator post. But I don't speak for him.

[taryuu]

are you fucking shitting me??  bravo??  fuck that shit!

let's look at some choice excerpts

. . In fact, if that's not a viable option, I suggest cutting out your eyes with a rusty spoon and then start typing with your nose, for that would produce less nonsense than you currently produce . .  

along with

..Words cannot express how absolutely moronic that statement was...

and to wrap it all up, death wishes

...In closing, I fervently wish - besides for the immediate and acutely painful accident that would result in your dismemberment - ...My HATE towards you and your extravagant ignorance being the last thing I wish to underline before I go.

I'm sorry I don't know what thread everyone's talking about.  but if all it took to have helm wish death threats on him was this

"Everybody should be calm, and follow rules. That's what communism is about."

then to me the whole death wish thing is out of line.

the words that he used were rash, hurtful, and moreover ignorant.  i'm glad to see he won't be back, and i think it ludicrous to commend someone for wishing intense bodily harm on a fellow human being.

[Raggit]

Naw, Helm isn't going to leave. He'll refrain from posting awhile probably.  At least I THOUGHT he was more mature than to let a petty issue with somebody to drive him away from here.

[PeaceMan]

the words that he used were rash, hurtful, and moreover ignorant.  i'm glad to see he won't be back, and i think it ludicrous to commend someone for wishing intense bodily harm on a fellow human being.

Damn right.

No matter what good someone "has" done does that mean he can get away with this and be reaccepted into the community.

[Vel]

I think he wanted to say "either me or she".

[Flippy_D]

Look at what has been said:

He is not coming back to the General discussion or the chit chat board. Indefinately. That means he'll continue to use the other boards as he sees fit, and may return to these two.

Gossip without facts isn't helpful.

[DarkStalkey]

I'm sorry to say that I do not find the forums or #ags good company anymore. They were good company, most certainly. But now there are far more people who are highly irritating than there are that are worth being around. I do not enjoy the majority of the company that has arrived here, and that's a completely different state of affairs than when I made my first post. The people that are good company are fortunatly the ones that have been to mittens, are going to mittens this year or are planning to be at the USA mittens, or those that I can contact on msn or elsewhere. However, I am stepping down from my post as moderator because I am no longer going to be attending this forum. All I can see is me being a nasty sarcastic cocky up-himself bastard and if that is all that I can currently contribute and have nothing else to gain from posting here then I might as well skidaddle.
But I digress from the topic. Carry on.

[Jimi]

Sure, a few comments Yufster have made have been stupid, but this is TOO harsh. There is no reason to start a hate thread about someone when they made a small statement, which, for all you know, may have been just left as a joke.

I think you've just exaggerated the fact YOU find her a bit annoying. I am not being biased, because you have a point that  a few of her posts were different to what you normally see, but thats only a few. Most of her topics, and posts have made good ponits about adventure games, or the adventure gamig community. I don't see what compelled you to start this thread.

[Raggit]

I feel this thread should be locked soon. But before it is locked, it is only fair to give Helm a chance to defend himself, so Helm, wherever you are, if you want to defend yourself I think now is the time.

[Andail]

My 2 cents:

1. Helm went too far
2. Anybody who has been attending this forum regularly for several years, all along loving it and caring for it and wanting it to run well, will eventually lose temper
3. I could very well go to far any minute, if I haven't allready

I'm starting to think we were just very lucky to attract such a great bunch of people in the beginning of the AGS-era. For some year now, 90% of the newbies have been annoying children with attitude problem. To be truthful, for too long a period have I been here posting merely to not lose the community completely to the newbies.

During this time, newbies have persistently ignored the Read Before Posting threads or any other rules, as well as constantly breaking them.

I just rambled on a bit because I want to express understanding with any oldie who is prepared to take a really really long break from this forum

[m0ds]

Although this post has not made me dislike Helm, which is something I probably will never do because he's been very helpful and kind to me in the past, I do agree that what he said was OTT and rather brash.

Yufster has calmed down now. Can't you tell from her muddy field avatar?

Good job we started Mittens, otherwise with just a forum in this state no one would be able to make friends.

m0ds

[DarkStalkey]

Defend himself why? Helm has been one of the oldest members of the community, way back before AGS got it's own domain, way back before anyone even cared about a windows version of roomedit, and if after all this time something has pissed him off to such an extent he wants to leave then I very much think he does not need to defend his actions. His reasons probably are much broader than Yufster's comment, which was just a catalyst for this. He has his reasons to explode, and I for one respect them. Blargh blargh.

[Raggit]

It doesn't matter how long any of us have been here, we never have the right to be threatning or harsh.  Just becuase Helm has been here oh so very long doesn't make him right.  He hasn't got a right to just tell Yufster to die and just leave.  No way.  

What I mean by defend himself is that this thread has spun out of control, and if he had anything he wanted to say about his actions, he should.


I get so sick of people telling others about how long they've been so any behavoir they display is okay.  Like, who cares?  At least that is what it sounds like.

Okay, hold it, now I'm just rambling on.  Let's slow this thing down a bit.

---second edit----

I don't know about the rest of you, but I vote for a resolution. What m0ds said makes since, "with a forum like this, nobody could make any friends."  This is true.  Before this forum is totally ripped apart I say that we apologize for any inappropriate things we've done in either of the two Yufster threads and shake hands.  Otherwise we can keep on fighting.

So for me, Helm, I'm sorry for going a little overboard here.  If you still dislike Yufster, work it out with her.  To the rest of you, I'm sorry if anything I've said has caused more harm than good between any of us.  I only hope this will help resolve some of the contrasts between us in this thread.  

[undergroundling]

I think this is just a matter of the "oldies" being pissed off that the "newbies" are taking over "their" board.  Let's not forget that everyone was a newbie at one point.  I'm pretty new to these boards, but I've tried to respect everyone here and I've always made sure to obey the forum rules.  You can't ask the newbies to respect people while you yourselves are disrespecting the newbies.

[DarkStalkey]

I never said he was 'right', or that being here a long time gave him a right to bark at Yufster.

I have never seen anyone claim that they can do whatever the hell they like here because they've been around a very long time. If you think that's what I implied in my post, read it again because you've read it wrong.

[DGMacphee]

Sigh!

I go away for a moderator holiday and look what happens!

Everyone hates everyone else and one of the moderators quits!

Tsk tsk tsk!

Okay, for a start don't blame Helm -- if anything, blame me (in a very santiagro-like way) for locking his previous thread.

In all honesty, his previous thread was a tactful request to Yufster and this seems to be an extention of that aggravation towards Yufster (only not as polite as the previous thread).

However, I spoke to Helm and he said he only over-dramatised the post for effect.

Secondly, I'm at odds in locking this post -- this is an issue that won't go away here and has caused another moderator to leave.

Yes, this is an oldies vs newbies thing -- and in that last post I buried my head in the sand on this issue.

Well, I can't ignore it anymore.

There are several people here who over-post!

Helm's posts are not just directed at Yufster (in fact, I think she's one of the lesser culprits) -- however, there are some users here who just post too damn much.

Their posts and not insightful nor do they spark some intelligent debate nor are they humourous.

I won't name names because it isn't the 50s, but let me put this thought to you:

IF YOU WANT YOUR OPINIONS RESPECTED, MAKE A DECENT ADVENTURE GAME.

Not just make an announcement of the 'Games in Production Forum' or a one room p-o-s -- I'm taking a decent, playable, and enjoyable adventure.

If not that, then contribute a set of tutorial or gaming articles -- not just one, but several.

That is what separates the "newbies" from the "oldies".

I.E. RESPECT FOR YOUR OPINION IS RELATIVE TO YOUR CONTRIBUTION TO THIS FORUM

This is an adventure game CREATION forum -- we make adventures and discuss game making theory.

If you just want to talk about ONLY adventure games, how cool they are, and general stuff like how cool your tabby cat's hair is, FUCK OFF!!!

I do not agree with what Helm says -- I think it was very thoughtless.

However, I understand WHY he posted it and it's a similar feeling I've had, as have many others.

So, in light of this, I've made a little comic inspired by this post -- think of it as something similar to the 'Daisy' post:



And Indy says: So, remember kids -- Make a good adventure game before writing mindless rants!

Do as Indy says!

All of you -- Stop posting here!

Get out of the general forum (In fact, all the forums) until you've made a playable adventure game!

If you really just came to use this place as a chat service, go away -- Yes, I'm all for free speech on the internet, but there are a hundreds of other places where you can  give you opinion.

We don't mind the odd post while you create you adventure game, BUT don't come here for the sake of coming here and join just because you think the AGS Comunnity is 1337!

We're not 1337!

We couldn't care less about your opinion -- that is until you make an adventure game!

Sounds elitist? Maybe.

But that's what this place is for -- Don't Like it? Go away!

Now if anyone over-posts here with garbage again without having some backing to their name, I will make your life on this forum a living hell.

Don't believe me?

Look up the name 'Santiagro'.

On a final note, I'm very depressed that Dark Stalkey had to leave -- and here's the clincher: It wasn't because of Helm's post, it was because of all I have said above.

I'm all for newbies, but only if they make something useful for this forum and for AGS.

Don't pissfart about and make garbage rants!

Also, I'm leaving this thread open because, even though I don't agree with Helm, I shouldn't have locked his previous post and this is my way of compensating for that.

Helm may be irrational at times but he is able to make valid points.

And from this, I'm leaning to John Stuart Mill, regarding his thesis for liberal utilitarianism, part of which says "To silence opinion is to silence the truth".

End transmission.

[undergroundling]

DarkStalkey: I didn't intend that post to be directed at you.  It was mainly in response to Andail's post (although I mean him no disrespect), but it is also something I feel is going on throughout the community, and not just limited to any specific member.

And I never said that people claim that can do "whatever the hell they like here because they've been around a very long time," I merely stated that the oldies have a general disrespect for newbies while simultaneously demanding respect from them.  And this doesn't apply to all people here either, and I'm not going to name names because that's not what this forum should be about.

[DGMacphee]

We respect certain newbies, but only for reasons I state in my previous post!

[undergroundling]

Well, I haven't made a game yet, but I still feel that I (generally) contribute to these boards in a positive fashion.  I don't go around posting rubbish all the time and I try to be helpful when I can be.  If you look at all of my posts, you'll find that most of them consist of artwork for C+C, C+C on other's artwork, or other forum/AGS-related issues.

Do I not deserve respect just because I haven't made a game yet?

[Paranoia]

i admit we newbie do try to hard to fit in at times, and end up making it worse for ourselves, i must admit also of making some crappy posts.....
but at times we do feel looked down on, i won't name, names but it does happen, but i'm taking DG's advice, hes got a valid point, so i'll stickin to making games(which i've been doin anyway!), i just hope all this indifference gets sorted out soon, its a shame its come to this mud slinging

Paranoia

[DGMacphee]

Just to reitterate for people who didn't "get" my post and have to analyse it to every last word:

"I.E. RESPECT FOR YOUR OPINION IS RELATIVE TO YOUR CONTRIBUTION TO THIS FORUM"

Are you seriously making a game?

Are you contributing art or music for a game?

Are you writing game creation articles or tutorials?

If in the process of making your first game, is your daily post count minimal?

If you answered yes to any of these questions, undergroundling, please stay.

If you answered no to ALL of these question, get lost.

That simple.

[Trapezoid]

So can I assume that you waited until you had finished a game before you first joined the AGS community, DG?

[Flippy_D]

I don't think it's a matter of disrespecting those who haven't made a game, more like respecting those who have made a game that they've put effort into.

Take Las, he never even thought of making a game, but he's widely respected.

You don't have to make a game to be respected, but it helps.

[Jimi]

I think this post should be locked.

I think we've resolved the problem. Yufster IS making a game, AND contributing artwork to somebody elses game.

I've stolen DG's style of writing  

[SSH]

OMG: now I have paranoia: which camp am I in?

Newbie: I only started with AGS in January
Oldie: I help people out on tech/beginners forums
Newbie: I have had locked threads recently
Oldie: I have made three games
Newbie: but they were all rubbish and average about a score of 4 on the games page  :'(
Oldie: I'm working on Neole's Creation Game
Newbie: but "in production" is not enough
Oldie: I'm trying to help the "useful scripts collection"
Newbie: becoz i ares teh mighty |-|/\XXXX00OOR!

aaargggh! I'm so insecure!

[DGMacphee]

Trap: I lurked for 2 months trying to get a feel for the place, then posted minimally.

Then made my original 4-room Dark Hero demo, then Ultimerr, and posted a little more.

Then Stickmen, then started MAGS, then wrote articles, then AGS Academy, etc, etc, etc.

In other words, I earnt respect -- I didn't start ranting and raving until I had at least ONE adventure behind me.

If you're going to rant and rave without producing anything, expect this kind of reply from Helm.

-------------------

Flippy: Wrong -- Las made Novo Maestro, the leading game in humanistic expressionism and deconstructivism.

And he also posts VERY minimally, even though he's made an insightful game.

------------------

I think this post should be locked.

I think we've resolved the problem. Yufster IS making a game, AND contributing artwork to somebody elses game.

I've stolen DG's style of writing  

Wrong, it's not resolved -- if it were, everyone would be fine and dandy!

Like I said, Yufster is only the smallest tip of the iceburg.

---------------------

SSH: Just keep making games and you'll do fine.

[Trapezoid]

If Helm's post is not completely serious, and over-dramatized, and not actually meant completely for Yufster-- how can anybody call that honest? And how could he not expect it to confuse and mislead us?

[Paranoia]

rather than threads like this happening, why not IM members you feel are been a pain in the ass? so its done more privately?



Paranoia


* Paranoia waits for the IM............. *

[Flippy_D]

My mistake.

I didn't exactly arrive in style, though, did I. I think I pissed off a few people when I started out because I posted so much. Whether they were good posts or not, I really don't know. I can't remember.

People can mature.

[DGMacphee]

Trap:
I never said Helm's post was honest.

However, I did say he was sometimes 'irrational'.

And I also said he made 'valid points'.

However, sometimes you have to cut through that tough and mighty Greek exterior to understand his true sentimonies!

And trust me on that -- I have to honour of being Helm's antithesis back in the good ol' Ezboard days.

And now we're great friends, despite all our past bickering.

Paranoia:
When DarkStalkey (or any moderator) leaves like this, something has to be really wrong.

I still encourage private messaging your issues, but my previous post needed to be said.

[Dave Gilbert]

DG:  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Jeeze louise, lighten up people.  Am I blind?  Am I the only one who never noticed a problem in the first place?  What's with these "Woe is the forum" posts?  Plenty of the "oldbies" are off topic and silly and don't post anything about adventure games or AGS.  When did we get so elitist?

DS, you say things have gone "downhill" since AGS started?  Look at the quality games that have been released this year alone!  The Uncertainty Machine, Nick it and Run, RR3, Apprentice, and RQ2 to name a brief few.  Not to mention a slew of fantastic MAGS and RON games.  2003 has been the best year for AGS gaming yet, and it's only half over!  

Relaaaxxx, folks.  Don't let a couple of annoying folks spoil our fun.  Ignore 'em.  They'll go away.  Like a bad headache.

-Dave
The Eternal Optimist.

[m0ds]

[Trapezoid]

I never said Helm's post was honest.

However, I did say he was sometimes 'irrational'.

And I also said he made 'valid points'.

However, sometimes you have to cut through that tough and mighty Greek exterior to understand his true sentimonies!

You never said it, but some others said it.

Helm usually puts a lot of thought into the writing of his posts, but he doesn't seem to think much about how people will react...

[DGMacphee]

Relaaaxxx, folks.  Don't let a couple of annoying folks spoil our fun.  Ignore 'em.  They'll go away.  Like a bad headache.

-Dave
The Eternal Optimist.

That's what my post was for.

Consider me Sgt Hartman and I'm separating the marines from the maggots.

Mods:
If you had c_leks with a knife at the front door, it would be perfect!

Trap:
That's Helm for you -- love him or lump him.

[SSH]

It's something I've notcied before, but if this "general discussion" forum doesn't match the "Feel free to talk about anything and everything in this board." subtitle on the front page, maybe the subtitle should be changed. Maybe "Communist Oldie Authoritarians get shirty" would be better  

j/k, guys!!!!

[Scummbuddy]

Both the comics are hilarious.  
I think DG made some great points though, and I back him up.

Dark S, I hope to someday meet you at a Mittens then, if we can't talk here anymore.  Just going to fish now then?


Oh, And
I ARES LeavIng mY moDDIng in ze BeGGinners PosTerium!    :
*j/k CJ*

[Jimi]

continuing from Dave Gilberts post: Not to mantion FoY. That game is gonna rock.

I think the quality of artwork, and games is getting better, so you can't say ags is bad. You're bound to get people who just reak havok like kikme with anything you do. But when you consider AGS, I think it has done really well, even if I wasn't here to see it from the start.

[Nellie]

Let's not get carried away.  Helm's post isn't 'unforgivable' by any means, and it will certainly be unfortunate if such a longstanding and devoted member removes himself from the community for a long period of time.  I like Helm, and respect him, and would hate to see him leave over such a silly thing as this.

Equally, we should beware of double standards.  Helm is a grown man and as much aware of the community rules as any of us.  I don't think his aggressive anti-Yufster post is an inevitable consequence of his love for the community.  And so I'm afraid I cannot agree with the oldbies who have so far posted messages that go some way towards excusing Helm's post, as though it were not really such a bad thing to do, because we must take into account the growing pressure of dealing with newbies...

It was a bad thing to do.  Yufster has started intelligent topics, obeyed the forum rules, and has never intended harm to anyone.  Helm just aggressively and publicly flamed her over a not particularly offensive comment.  This is simply wrong.  There isn't one rule for oldbies and another for newbies.  If you're unneccesarily rude to another forum member, you've crossed the line and deserve censure.

And boy has Helm had some censure in this thread.

Hopefully he will realise that his conduct was not justified, and chalk it down as a lesson to cool down a little before he hits the 'post' button.  Then it would be nice if he decided to stick around rather than deprive us of his stimulating presence for a time.  This place will be poorer without him.

Besides, I wanna see more of his cool art.

[DGMacphee]

SSH:
I will update the front page to include the above sentiments.

Jimi:
But that's the problem -- people like kikme who just want to join this community because they think it's "in".

Nellie:
Do not worry, because I don't excuse Helm's post and from the sounds of it so don't a lot of other people.

However, I spoke to him and asked him why.

Not only that, but I spoke to some other members (both old and new) and the consenus is the same.

Helm over-reacted in his usual undiplomatic fashion.

But once again, I state clearly: Don't blame Helm, blame me for locking his original polite request for Yufster to post less -- the debate should be there and not here.

It was more ignorant on my part.

And once again, the problem isn't strictly Yufster -- in fact, I consider her to play a very minor role in this whole drama.

[Jimi]

I don't mean to offend, but I think Helms comments were a bit over the top, and childish.

[MillsJROSS]

Ehem...There are several places I could take quotes from and argue points but I'll just explain things in a general mish mush.

Helm's intention wasn't to hurt Yufster. I don't agree with his approach. But look at what he's already done, he's brought an issue up, bluntly, that needed to be brought up. Should he have used more tact? Been nicer? Maybe, but the truth is, now there are around sixty posts in a seven hour period (which for a message board is quite a number in that amount of time, considering some threads don't even get 20). Let's look at this in a more positive light, shall we. This conversation needed to happen a long time ago.

Indeed, this is a community, and your welcome to have fun and chat. That's what this gen gen forum is for. However, in the past few years this has been the main focus for new people comming to ags and us oldies a like. There used to be a time when most of the posts were directed towards AGS gen. The gen gen forum isn't supposed to be AGS's main focus. Chris shouldn't have to waste so much of his bandwith here. The focus should be in the tech forums, the AGS gen forums, the critics lounge, and even the competitions forum.

This is aimed at newbies and oldies alike. Some of us post too much silly useless crap. I've been guilty of it. Most everyone has been guilty of it, one time or another. And silly crap IS welcome. It's just not welcome to a point where it seems you are crapping more than eating (in other words spending more time conversating than contributing, bad analogy, I know).

When I first joined here, I don't remember when. I downloaded the engine, looked at the forums real quick, and went right into making my game. I maybe posted three times in three months while working on my game. I didn't allow myself to use mIRC until I had finished my game. This has been my contribution to AGS. Does it matter if you like my game or not? No! Are there other ways of contributing? Yes!

People need to realise, this community IS great. BUT, this community isn't here just to be community. It's here for Adventure Games, and people who wish to make/play them. If you want to chat there are tons of communities that are aimed just for that.

Helm's post, while harsh, and a bit too much, did exactly what he set out to do. I am sorry Yufster is singled out, I'm sure if she's intelligent she'll realise what Helms post is for what it is.

-MillsJROSS

-MillsJROSS

[Helm]

Okay. Closure, then. Some explanations, mainly for the people PMing me. Please try to read this as I ment it, meaning, without any attempt being made at overdramatizing. Sure it comes off a bit corny, but that's due to me being wordy, and my inability to be as precise as needed to make fine points as I would like to when using the english language. Try to not picture a weeping helm when reading this, for I am anything but.


I do not hate Yufster. I actually do not feel as strong or as negative an emotion towards anyone. The reason I chose to word my initial post as I did was because I wanted to emphasize my point, even in a somewhat descriptive way. In restrospect I find that a poor decision, seeing how it provided grounds for a number of people to make obvious accusations towards me with a startling solidarity (IT SI ILLEGAL TO THREATNE PEOPL!!!!!!!!!!!!11111). If you knew me even just a tad better, you'd understand the spirit in which the original post was written. I am a bit... agressive when I'm doing this sort of thing, and the reason you do not see any oldie really take notice is because they've accepted me as I am. Just like how Cpt. Mostly sometimes is given to not making complete sense, or Mods will always say something sexual, or eric being 40 feet tall and a time traveller, Helm is given to being a bastard. And he's forgiven. You simply do not know me enough to pass judgement like you're the final arbiter. I'm sure Yufster will not cry over some hairy greek person wishing bodily harm to befall her. If she did, she'd be a whole different person, one that I probably would never take stabs at. In fact (would you believe it????2?2?22222) I do not wish Yufster died a horrible horrible death involving melted icecream and an exposed powerline. Detained from the use of a computer, maybe. But not killed. Maybe maimed. Hm.

Anyway, what is important is this: When I wrote the original text and clicked "Post", I did it after a good long while of thinking. But I did it effortlessly. There was a time when posting an oppinion on lesser things had more of an impact on me. There were times, like when I had sort of a falling out with DGM, or that other time with Andail, that I felt geniunely sad. Hell, even one time when we pulled a prank with eric and there was Helm Open Season, that had quite emotional effect on me. In fact, I'm pretty certain some people never completely forgave us for that one (well.. me, I guess. Eric is too loveable to hold a grudge against) and when I recall the memory, I still feel bad. There was a time when we were debating a matter with Las or Britney that I went through my post 30 times (although it didn't really show) before submitting, for fear of construsion. Their oppinions really mattered to me. And to thoroughly present my point, there were times in the past when I felt very glad to be part of the community. Like the whole Whiteboard period, or Butch and Glodmnu making threads a joy to read. Most of the 'oldies' that have endured are people of character and essence, for me. Even when I do not always agree with them, there's a certain deal of respect there. Their oppinions and words -whereas not the focus of the boards for me, the games ware always the point- ment something to me, and I took them seriously - even too seriously.

Over a long period, these forums have become less a community for me, and more like a joke. A bad joke at that. And it doesn't have to do with 'newbies'. Nor does it (completely) have to do with the games you have to make. I remember when Grundislav was a newbie and I read his posts and I thought "this person is bringing something to the community. Without him, the AGS scene would be poorer". Or Timosity, or Yak, they posted, I listened. I find it hard to listen to Yufster, or Jimi, or Femme F or a number of other people. Why? It's not the games, as DGM says. In fact, the games I've made I do not really like anymore. So why?

Because these people have priorities I do not approve of. They 'hang around', and they get on their soapbox and rant and they chat chat chatter chatter bicker argue elephants it's a dangerous place. And that doesn't say to me "I'm prepared to be commited, to be honest and to listen" it says "I'm looking for an audience, I'm looking for chat buddies to fill up my vacant life, I'm looking for people that have something to say, anything to say about what I just said" And that was so sad I gradually stopped caring about them completely. In fact, I hoped that if I ignored them, they would go away. Believe me, we hoped that if we ignored them, they'd go away. But apparently there's enough of them around, so they can talk to each other and feed off their needs. And gradually, the forum filled up with that sort of stuff until it's nigh impossible to ignore. Lots of people left because of this, I suspect. Does any of you new people know who Unilin is? Esseb? Scid? Ghormak? Eric?  Jarnokob? Goldmund? Butcher? 2ma2? Andail? In fact, besides my screen name, does any of you know anything about me? I do not speak for these people, but I suspect the reason they've distanced themselves from here was exactly because it's so hard to swallow the fact that their community is now this. Yufster striking out swear words, Jimi hating his dad because he looks at him when he plays guitar, and kikme living forever.


Is this unfair to some of you that may have been categorized along with the rest as 'useless'? Yes. I'm sure undergroundling will in time make honest contributions to the community on many levels. Or others. But the truth is this: tough luck. You've been handed a difficult hand, so make the most of it. People might not be so favourable to newbies as they once were, after months of grating oversaturation, but the commited people will shine through. It is the crux of what I am saying, the fact that so many of you rushed to reply so thoroughly to such a thread, so eager to share your oppinion with others without first considering your motivation to do so. You actually provided a source of amusement for a number of us, that fail to take you seriously exactly because you're not people striving for something, you're just names with oppinions attached to them.


The general general board has been in a constant state of decadance for a while now. I think it's useless and if it was in my ability, I'd shut it down. Most of the people that I do find worth communicating with have already migrated to greener pastures. Instead of further adding to this mess, I choose to leave the 'community' aspect of these forums, while I will still post and participate in activities, or critique art, or discuss technical issues, or more importantly I will still download the games, and I will still try to make some games. I've come to terms with the fact that as far as the forum goes, this is not the place I fondly remember, and it is impossible to go back at said memory, no matter how I might entertain thoughts of how horribly mutilating a number of you classifies as 'a good start'.


So, I hope my final post in gen gen for a good long while has shed some light in a number of things. I honestly prefered the original sudden and loud bang to the spelled out B-A-N-G I've resorted to post, but eh, at least now I won't have to go to jail for my vicious verbal assault on Yufster. Right?  


-Helm

-Helm

[Darth Mandarb]

Did you guys realize that if you take Yufster and spell it backwards you get Retsfuy ... how can you possibly HATE that??

Tell me!!

dm

[Jimi]

I don't want to sound like i'm intruding, but...

why the final ost for a long while?

[Vel]

You're just damn right Helm.

[MachineElf]

I know feel I should've read this thread through before posting in the love-thread, but done is done.

Full respect to DG and Helm and everybody else who contributed to this discussion.

I guess I'm considered an oldie, although I don't quite feel like one, probably because I've been here only in periods and during long times haven't been very engaged in these forums nor in adventure game making. At the moment I really feel like a newbie, not contributing too much to the community and making too many % of my posts about other things than adventure game making. That makes me probably overtolerant about the kind of newbies that Helm and DG talk about and makes me think a great deal myself about my role in this community. I hope more people do this.

Just remember: This is not an anti-newbie thread! It's just about getting newbies, and others, something to think about.

But again, love to y'all!

[Jimi]

On second thoughts, I don't want to know. I've just read youre post again, and youve pretty much insulted the people who have come here after you. Its like some "I'm older than you, so you'll listen to me" thing. I admit,I've made mistakes on the forums, but when you said, "undergroundling will in time make honest contribututions" since I've joined, he's the only newbie I've seen who has hardly posted unless its for a good reason, so I think you shouldn't say that about him.

[DGMacphee]

Jimi:


Bill Cosby says:
"Jimiiii, this exact-u-lay what DGeeee is talkin' ABOUT. So far... Heeeelm has maaade... SEVERAL GAMES... and I took a look at your website and found the game RODNEY. I was very eager to doooooownload this game but I could not find it ANYWHERE! All I could find was dis picture of the main CHARACTER! THAT'S ALL!!! Why are you re-ply-ing to this post so much when you haven't made any games what-so-ever? You see, this is just like jello puddin'! It's not sooo difficiult fer you to SWALLOW!!! Instead of the rantin' and the ravin' you could be making the games for the forum!!! Now if you will excuse me I have to go see my wife CAMILLE and ask her for another one of these multi-colored SWEATERS!!!

THEEEEOOOOOOOO!!!!"

[DaveGilbertAtParents]

Bill?  I thought you were killed by a brain-craving zombie!

-Dave

[Scummbuddy]

Jimi, he was saying he is on his way to being a very good contributor.  He is not saying hes not doing anything.  He is saying he is doing a good job.

And he's not going to post in a forum that makes so many mindless rants... and I agree with him.

And I'm holding my tounge on a few things that I agreed on with Helm and some of his pointing fingers and will not elaborate.

[DGMacphee]

Bill?  I thought you were killed by a brain-craving zombie!

-Dave

"Never underestimate the POWER... of the multi-colored SWEATER!!!!!"

[Paranoia]

AGS forum has become a victim of its own success, barr CJ charging money for AGS i can see how he could put people off wanting to join. i guess people want a community spirit, so we tend to post "any old shit" to join in, and people are posting in the wrong places(guilty), stupid threads(guilty) and asked questions that are in the tutorials (guilty, hung, n quartered!)  but to me this thread was nasty, even tho 99% of people may have over reacted,i just wonder if i made a personal attack against DG (not that i would) would my thread of been locked and edited before anyone noticed?

Paranoia

[Flippy_D]

Kikme is gone. Jimi has matured immensely since he joined. Yufster has a somewhat brash sense of humour.

And this'll pass. I don't see the worth of continuing it because it'll just be stirred up again. Just forget about it. Listen to Dave.

[Andail]

More pictures coming up.

[DGMacphee]

i just wonder if i made a personal attack against DG (not that i would) would my thread of been locked and edited before anyone noticed?

I don't mind personal attack on me, but only if they are warrented.

For example, if someone told me my moderation abilities "suck", I would then ask why they posted that and ask them how I could improve I.e. I'd expect someone to verify their opinion of me.

However, if someone posted in all seriousness that I'm an ugly toll that deserves to be molested by my local archbishop, I'd tell them to get fucked and then lock the post I.e. Posting something malicious and defamitory.

That's the distinction.


Flippy:
It's a little more worrying when DarkStalkey gives up moderating -- thus, I don't think we can ignore this issue any longer.

[Jimi]

oohh....

*Jimi feels stupid

Sorry, I mis-read.

bill: ( ) I think it may have been my old site you looked at, because the only reason I put that picture on was to cover something that fellow school "mates" were poking fun at me with. But the game is in full progress. Possible demo out once walk animation is done.

*Jimi kisses Flippy_D

But you have to think: everyone is a newbie at some point. So its really just a big circle. QWhen the now-newbies mature, other newbies will come, then when they mature, other newbies will come. You can't stop it from happeneing.

[Trapezoid]

Helm's gone bitter... Of course this isn't the forum he fondly remembers. Things change. This is the forum that the newbies will fondly remember when they're oldies. I myself am a not-so-oldie, and I don't really have a problem with this forum.

Does any of you new people know who Unilin is? Esseb? Scid? Ghormak? Eric? Jarnokob? Goldmund? Butcher? 2ma2? Andail? In fact, besides my screen name, does any of you know anything about me?

And do you know what that is? Because they don't post much. And your posts are usually too enigmatic to derive much sense of personality from. The newbies will get to know those who are friendly. True oldies can accept change and enjoy it. For every oldie that leaves, a new one is created without anyone realizing.
If you honestly think the forum's gotten so bad, I honestly think that you're taking everything good about it for granted. You'd be hard pressed to find a community as fun, tight, smart, and eclectic as AGS.

[Jimi]

I must say, my faveroute oldbie is Rick Jafrate. He helped me loads when I was a newbie, and wasn't really put off by the fact I was asking silly questions. He helped me anyway. Now I'm somewhat beter than then, but I probably wouldn't be if it wasn't for Rick J.

*Jimi salutes Rick Jafrate

[AGA]

Personally, if a newbie makes a poor first impression, they will automatically be in my 'bad books'. It will take something big, a good game release, or slowly showing their maturity/quality, to rectify this.

Invariably those whose first post is a 'Hi I'm x and I love adventure games' style post make a good impression. These people are almost always valuable community members.

[DGMacphee]

Jimi:
Bill told me to tell you that the combined time you took to write these posts, you could have finished the walk cycle for your game and had the demo out by now.

He also mumbled something about family values but I didn't quite catch it.

[Paranoia]

ok. i'll shut up but got to say.......

so much for your mod break DG!!!!

[DGMacphee]

Aye, you leave for a while to work on a game, a screenplay, and a documentary film and the whole place turns into a world of shit. (Apologies to Kubrick)

[Robert Eric]

You'll be working overtime now, since c_leksutin isn't around much, and Dark Stalkey gave up his title.

Edit: I'd like to point out that I contributed two demo games to this community plus a little uplifting story that Helm seemed to like.

[Scummbuddy]

Yeah, that sucks DG, I took a break for modding the beg forum for a week to go scuba diving, and I'm rewarded with a new beta.  

[m0ds]

[Nellie]

Never trust a woman with blue hair lice.

[undergroundling]

That's the woman from the anti-porn stuff for your computer ads.  I think.

[rodekill]

This guy never looks evil.

[m0ds]

[miguel]

Im new.
Im also married with one kid, I have a job and I am respected where I live.
If I was looking at AGS for the first time on the internet and having a look at this thread I would feel NOT WELCOME.
I wouldn't want to be part of this comunity and maybe end the urge of making an adventure game..
Is that what you (old users of this forums) want?
I am sure that people will keep coming to the forums because what brings them here is AGS, the software, not you! If you dont want to share this forums with people starting out, talk to CJ and ask him to make separate forums, but dont desrespect people and try not to be rude because you will not add any respect on your person even if you have made the best ever ags game.
And most of you should have a look at RickJ replys to beguiners questions and perhaps learn something about comunicating with people,

" you only have it after giving it to someone else"

[Robert Eric]

We don't dislike newcomers, we only dislike newcomers who dive into the community headfirst and bump heads with us old folk who are just trying to keep things settled.  Many newcomers have, instead of asking nicely, flat-out demanded help and acted rudely when help was presented to them.  They ignored the rules that we so nicely tried to spread about, and wreaked havok.  It shouldn't be so hard to see why we are so angry.  We will respect you all if you do what we ask of you and don't get out of line.  A joke post filled with swears and nonsense is (sometimes) okay every now and then, but we don't enjoy you guys doing it often.

[Las Naranjas]

This is the first thread in ages where people have felt compelled to actually write, then consider what they've written, and develop what they're saying at any length.
It's sad that it had to come in this form, but it's sadly true.
The homosexuality thread is an interesting case in point, since so many of the replies were only one or two sentences. There's little motivation when you feel that what you say might be flooded under a mass of single sentence mouth offs and excessive punctuation about how you mmisunderstood the onion.
Or at least "Aww, long posts! lol!". Really, if you don't like long posts, we don't mind, but that's not necessary.
I miss the lurkers. I mean real lurkers, who would spend weeks and weeks before tentatively offering something, and something that was worth offering.
This forum made me a rare creature, which is to say someone whose writing skills, particularly in constructing extended argument. Sure the forum's evolved and changed as a result of growing popularity, and perhaps the output is much higher, but there is no real doubt that the standard of donversation had dropped. Even if someone did have something to say, it would be skimmed over in efforts to encompass the entire mass of non comments and glorified zings.
I feel no resentment towards anyone who came after. It's not in essence their fault, or anyone's fault. They merely conformed to the changed standards of a forum which had gone from discussion to clamour. Maybe that's just the consequence of popularity. When AGS reaches half-life mod levels it'll be another matter still.
So maybe I'll just satiate myself with memories of a golden age, rotuinely glorifying them and polishing the sheen as time goes on, and be sad that I could never see how many of the newer blood would have reacted in a smaller environment where they may have been heard without a cavalcade of posts, inversely related to their content and attracting comments about the acoustic capabilities of empty vessels.
C'est la vie, and may we revel in our decadence.

[rodekill]

Well, I've never been the great debater around here, so I'm gonna make it a short one. Sorry Las.

I agree with a lot of what Helm said.

What do I think about Yufster, Jimi (Don't mean to single anyone out in particular, just the first names that came to me) and the other younger members? Well, I'm 24 years old. I can't really relate to them. The internet was a very different place when I was in my mid teens. I don't know what it's like to bring teenage angst to the digital masses for advice. All I had was black t-shirts and loud music. When I read posts about 12 year olds being madly in love I don't know what to say. Do what I did. Hide in your room and be depressed.

See?

The point is, I don't feel like there's much of a place for me here anymore. I try to post fun links and things, but they always seem to fall off the page within a half hour. I don't have a lot to add to most of the existing posts.

Unfortunately for us, things DO change, and we don't own this community. It's growing, and changing, and there's nothing we can do about it.

I'm lucky that I've made a lot of great friends here. People that I can talk to about stuff that no one in my real world understands. I've been inspired by so many people. The talent around here is scary sometimes.

That's the stuff that'll hopefully never leave the community. People can yammer on about their favorite movies or how their girlfriends goldfish died or how much Metallica sucks or whatever. As long as guys like DG stick around with their Photoshop contests, and guys like Neole keep cranking out the inspiration, I'll keep coming back.

In the meantime, I'd like to invite all you "odies" to add me to your MSN lists.
shawnguzzo@hotmail.com

Hmm. That wasn't too short. Kind of medium...

[Robert Eric]

By "odies," I assume you mean "oldies?"  Or, do you mean "oddies."

[rodekill]

There's a difference?

Badum bum! Yeah!

[auhsor]

Hmm, i'm away for a couple of weeks, and this happens. I don't know what to say - alot has already been said already.

I do agree with rode tho. Things do change and we have to accept that.
And yeah, i'm not one to write long posts. Sorry las.

Oh yeah, just so everyone knows, I am going to start finishing my game when schools over(november) - that is if i dont get a job or something...

[TerranRich]

I think we're missing the point here. I find it ironic that Helm defends himself as being rash and emotional, while he was the one who started a "hate" (dislike?) post for someone who acted exactly the same way.

Sure, Yufster's comment was harsh and sarcastic. Is that really any different than being harsh yourself, Helm? Now I'm not trying to start anything here, but I just think it's not right to verbally attack someone whose personality is probably just as high-strung as you are "given to being a bastard".

You talk about people having accepted you for who you were. Can we not do this for Yufster? ALlow her some leeway for being rude? Or is that only allowed for oldies? Should we have a Personality Gestapo around here, forcing people to follow certain personality traits until their second year here? I realize that Yufster is a newbie and has not contributed much as of yet, but that doesn't make her any less of a person than anyone else here.

I also realize that I'm not realyl an oldie myself. I've been here for little over a year. And I haven't contributed a game yet. Does that mean I'm useless and my opinion means nothing? I'd like to think I was welcome here, as anyone else is.

I agree with the people who said that Helm should have PMed Yufster instead of publically bashing her like that. Even *I* understand how Helm can be, but that was still too much. I think it was even CJ in another post that said to air out your differences and bashing in private. Sure Helm brought up a topic that needed to be discussed. Along with the 50 other threads that deal with newbie-ism and rudeness and the like. Plus, did that really need to be brought up? What did we accomplish that we didn't try to accomplish time and time before?

I, too, and sure that Yufster isn't crying over this. But I haven't seen her post for awhile and she's been MIA on IRC. Who knows what kind of AGSer Yufster would have turned out to be? She might feel un-welcome here now, all because her personality is too strong for some of us. When Helm first showed up on the scene, did people publically threaten him (albeit jokingly) and hope he didn't use his computer as much anymore? No. And look at him now. He's done tons for the community and I have nothing but the highest respect for him.

I generally stick to the Tech and Art forums now because of this forum. I agree with the one(s) who said that the General Forum should be shut down for good. It really should. It is most likely the reason that the entire forums have been down many times in the past. It contributes the most bandwidth to the entire forums and is really a waste. I mean, sure, it's a way for people to talk about random stuff. But there is a fine line between posting random rants and posting crap.

The solution to this is impossible. Have a system where the topic MUST be deep and of some importance to people. Yeah right, like that could be implemented. Maybe locking threads that have run its course is necessary. As well as locking duplicate threads, and threads that get out of hand. This is happening, to be sure, and it's still not really helping. New topics show up every second. I'm sure threads about the weather aren't really necessary. But there are still a lot of threads that have useful information.

Perhaps a new forum dedicated to new information and the sharing of neat tools found on the internet? I don't know if there really is a good solution to anything other than shutting down the Gen Forum, then re-starting it once everybody has promised to keep it reasonable.

[DGMacphee]

Dryhump:
We're not missing that point -- look at the first few pages and you'll see many users agree that Helm was out of line.

However, I am not a school teacher here -- I do not force users to stand in front of the class and apologise to Mary Jenkins for pulling her hair.

If Helm wants to apologise, that's his business.

If he doesn't want to, I nor anyone else cannot do anything about it.

What worries me most of all is that people take his forum so damn seriously.

My advice to everyone is simple: Get out of the forum and find something else -- make a game, paint a picture, write that novel, have something else in your life besides this.

Stop living your life through this community and using it as a chat service.

There are hundreds of greater things you could be doing than posting a reply to every single topic here.

Look at guys like Chrille or Spyros -- that've made great games and post sweet FA!

It's cause they don't need to.

So find something else to do -- make a game, communte, learn a new recipe, get fitter, procreate, send your kids of to a good school, learn kung-fu -- something else besides posting here!

It'll even make the Gen forum moderators' jobs easier too!  8)

[Trapezoid]

Although it's great when people contribute games to the AGS roster... if you post "sweet FA" then to relative newbies it just seems like you aren't part of the community. Just because you happened to discover AGS before other people, doesn't mean that you can hardly ever give the forums a spin and expect the newer members to know or care about you...

[DGMacphee]

Trap: Go play Pleughburg, Calsoon 1 or 2, or any of the Book of Spells games again or re-read some of the technical forum replies from Spyros -- Then you'll understand what Chrille and Spyros don't need to post anything.

If new people do their homework, they'll understand why these people, and many others, are important.

It's not because they discovered AGS before anyone else -- it's because they can utilise their time better with their contributions.

[Timosity]

I can Understand some of what Trap said, (that is for new newbies) but as time goes on they will realise who made what game, that's what's more important, not how much you post.

Also I noticed Yufster hasn't posted since these threads have been around, although I haven't been around as much lately (busy, work, socialising and working long hours on my game)

Therefore scaring her off I guess worked, but it's dissappointing for something like this to happen, just single out one young girl and abuse her verbally, just cause she got a bit post happy, we're not all nazi's around here, plenty of other people do the same.

If anything, she posted lots because she was getting a lot of attention from a lot of the males around here, so I don't blame her, it's really brought on by respected memebers with hardons.

[Paranoia]

newbie do multi threads for a bit of attention, and to get noticed, for whatever reason the internet seems to fill a void in peples lives and can become a obsession, i know  , i won't bore you with details but that happened with me, but i realized one day i was talking to people, who's marriage, and lives where wasting away on forums, chatroom, and i was doing the same!  theres a few ppl here that must do the same judging my the multi replies on this thread and others
i limit my self to replying to things that stand out, 99% of general is unread now, i look at MAGS coz i'm doing a game and a few other comps, and ask for help if i need it or help if i can
AGS is a good product, and theres a hell of a lot of interest, so all the oldies should feel proud of the attention it brings, jeez imagine if everyone of the members posted everyday, instead of the 20 or so that do.

Paranoia


OMG I'm hitting the refresh button, its starting again....noooooo :'(

[Femme Stab Mode >:D]

Why bash someone publicly, single them out, humiliate them, etc? Is there a kikme hate thread? Is there a Jimi hate  thread? Is there a Sasha hate thread, though I deserved it, remember when I posted LOTS  of hectic random shet? (sometimes I still do, 750 posts, SHIT) So if you hate somebody, I dislike some people on the forums but I don't go starting hate threads.

[juncmodule]

Arghhhh....

I just have to post something here.

When DG locked Helm's original thread I was extremely pissed. To see a very freindly approach to telling someone calm down get flooded with "no, don't pick on her!"-threads and then locked was just frustrating.

DG I congratulate your response in this thread. My respect for you has risen ten-fold. Your post about making games is the reason I continue to try to be a part of this "community" ("the reason" meaning the post, not the games, I will get to that in a minute).

A few months ago someone was writing a post and mentioned me as an oldie. That is just ridiculous. People know the community so little that they just blabber things off like that. I'm a newbie. I have made games and I am still a newbie. I will always consider myself a newbie.

When Helm posted in my Keptosh thread and said that I was part of the "people who have made a game group" I was honored, because it was Helm. And I mean "honored", not just grateful. It truly made me feel like more of the community. I knew that some oldies understood how much work I put into my game (even though the puzzles sucked). For me that is what being part of this "community" is about.

And Rode, if you stop posting or some shit I will track you down and bitch slap you. If I don't respond to all of your threads I at least read them and always find them entertaining.

On to the being part of this community from the games perspective:

If Chris Jones walked into my house, screwed my girlfriend, pissed on my cat, and slapped me across the face, I would STILL make adventure games. If Helm hates me, m0ds, DG, whoever. I DON'T care. I am here to make games. Finding a decent community is only a extra bonus. If you call me a newbie and tell me I post too much, great! If you ignore my posts (which most people do), great! I don't care. I love the fact that Chris Jones and AGS give me the opportunity to create adventure games. That is why I'm here.

The sad thing about the above paragraph is that the oldies now feel the same way. All they have left is the adventure games. The community is gone. That is why I am eternally a newbie. I feel that I missed something years ago. I know that I was not part of it and never will be.

If anyone, oldies or newbies, leave this community because someone posts some thread in the gen-gen forum. So long and piss off! You never loved what you were doing anyway.

I'm not really sure what people think of me here. I ALWAYS write long posts and for the most part they are always ignored and followed by short l33t speak replies. I don't have time to be concerned with all of that. Sure, I want to be part of an adventure game creation community...but, not at the cost of my games.

later,
-junc

[m0ds]

Looks like she's dissapeared now anyway.

[Hobbes]

Being a newbie, I would like to make a reply to that which has been said before. Looking at things now, I can see the reason in Helm's postings. Yes, I even feel ashamed because I have been here for over a year.

I even feel ashamed for making a statement against him before I knew what he truly meant. Helm, if you're still reading this thread, I am sorry.

To continue this: I still have to finish my first game. So as of yesterdayevening (when I first read this thread) I've started to work on it in full strength again.

I guess what I'm trying to say with this is: I agree with DG. I agree with Helm. I agree with what Junc just wrote... Make a game, don't make a mess. So I'm off to do that.

[Femme Stab Mode >:D]

good on you. You made a great n00b disaper. How great. Go on, go on, hurt people and make them go away. Make the world a better place.

[DGMacphee]

junc: I'm sorry I disappointed you when I first locked that post -- I felt a lot of regret soon after I locked it.


Sasha: We've already discussed those point -- Yes, Helm's post was inconsiderate.

Despite being inconsiderate, it's still an important sentiment, especially after discussing it with him.

Not only that, it's one shared by a lot of people I've spoken to.

Besides, you're supposed to have a bad arm -- aren't you supposed to be keeping away from your computer.


EVERYONE: We get the point -- Helm's post was rude, etc, etc, etc.

If you've come to this forum and posted here just to tell us that Helm was mean Yufster, please go away because we already know that.

And each time someone posts about it, I care less about it.

Besides, I'm more concerned about DarkStalkey than Yufster.

[m0ds]

[DGMacphee]

Mods, you're taking the joke too far now.

P.S. I've updated the rules -- please read them before posting from now on.

[SSH]

m0ds: You do realise that getting rid of Gen-Gen will just put more of the dross into the "Adventure related talk and chat" forum, don't you?Better hope that your sore wrist gets better soon, or stop painting those houses, becuase you'll have a lot more moderating to do!

[n3tgraph]

the talk n chat forum could use some more threads

but not the bullshit though

[m0ds]

Why? I'm not talking about Helm or Yufster, this forum sucks. We don't need it. ^_^

[DGMacphee]

Mods
A General forum is still handy -- It helps game creators point out humourous and insightful stuff to other game creators.

Note, I said game creators (and I also mean people who contribute to other people's games too i.e. music or art, etc)

However, there are those that use it as their own soapbox, even when they haven't made a single game.

In other words, they rely upon this place too much to voice their opinion.

I talked about respect for other users -- and for the last year old people have been very tolerant of new people.

But new people must respect the older users and their space here.

It's especially worrying when new users make over a hundred and fifty posts in their first week here -- That's nearly a tenth of the posts I've made in my entire time on this board.

This forum is not a soapbox -- it is, in part, a private retreat for game creators.


EVERYONE:
See the updated rules for more details

[SSH]

A General forum is still handy -- It helps game creators point out humourous and insightful stuff to other game creators.
Note, I said game creators (and I also mean people who contribute to other people's games too i.e. music or art, etc)
This forum is not a soapbox -- it is, in part, a private retreat for game creators.

This new Pumaman guy has never created a game, has he? Everybody seems to respect him, though, and he's even a moderator!

EDIT: No, Pumaman is CJ? I had never realised. That custom title, the highest post count, the fact that all CJ's threads changed to Pumaman and finally, the fact that it still says CJ at the top of his profile. No I didn't realise! Thanks for pointing it out! Now I feel a right n00b!

Still, CJ's never made a game either.

[Dmitri]

Did you also notice SSH that pumaman has his own position too... just like CJ's was "Respect my authoritaah" Pumaman's is "Aztec Guy's Friend"

And since CJ said that he wasn't going to hand out silly titles to anyone...

well...

I guess I'll stop trying to be subtle and out and say it... you know that guy that made AGS? That was Pumaman, otherwise known as CJ...

[Robert Eric]

 :

[c.leksutin]

Ok, enough of this bullshit.  Half of you whine like little bitches when the other half posts something you dont like, and they bitch by starting a topic about how much they dont like it.

What do you guys want?  you want exact rules for posting and a gestapo style enforcement policy?  thats fine.  It only looks like I'm not around much, but I on this forums nine hours a day, 5 days a week.  and I have an ichy delete finger.

If this practice of public airing of dirty laundry continues then I AM gonna show up in this forum like Ray Leotta in "good fella's"


Lests start with some simple rules:

Have a problem with another member and/or their thread/post?  then disscus it with them PRIVATELY or speak to a moderator about it.

Have a problem with a Moderators decision?  Either suck it up or talk to CJ

I'll be comming up with some more over the course of the day, untill then, the Gen-Gen Gestapo declares this thread closed.


C.