YE GRANDE ELITIST OLD GUARD FORUM?? pros and cons

[Goldmund]

I'm quite absent from the forums, because somehow I cannot relate to most of the newcomers. I get an impression that back on EzBoards there were more people similar to me.
There's too many new people and I've too little time to get to know them, so I'm feeling kind of lost.

IS 'YE GRANDE ELITIST OLD GUARD FORUM' THE ANSWER?22?222???2
(password protected?)

pros: obvious

cons:
-'elitarism' is stupid
-any closed system is bound to die, fresh information is necessary for survival - thus I propose to invite people, not limit the forum to "ezboards buddies"

We have to decide on few things:
- is this a good idea? (I say yes)
- where to locate the forum? (we ask CJ to make a password protected one on this forums, or go elsewhere and live here and there) (I prefer the former)
- how to choose members?
I'm all for masonic principle. Invitation. Let's not limit it to people who were AGSers for two years, there are lots of new and valuable people (GarageGothic! Yakspit! etc.)
- Grand Masters of the Lodge, moderators -
to be chosen.

What do you think? I must say that I'm torn. I loathe elitarism, but I hate to see that such an important piece of my life as AGS forums loose its meaning for me. Thus I think that the best option is to organise such a forum here, on agsforums.com/yabb (if CJ likes the idea, that is). We still take active part in other forums (critics corner, technical, competition etc.) whereas we chat in YE GRANDE LODGE EX ORIENT LUX.
Opinions, please.

[SSH]

As soon as you invite in someone who disagrees with the whole idea, they could invite everybody else...

Maybe this would be good, as I'd actually go and do something useful instead of spending too much time messing about on the forums.

[Goldmund]

Why should anyone disagree with the whole idea?
One needs to think about the proposed forum as a SENTIMENTAL, COMMUNITY initiative, a place for old friends to chat in, not some better-than-others club.

[Miez]

One needs to think about the proposed forum as a SENTIMENTAL, COMMUNITY initiative, a place for old friends to chat in, not some better-than-others club.

Nevertheless - it will be a better-than-others club: people in it will think so, and outsiders as well. I have no say in this matter, being a green n00b, and I know I risk some virtual flamestorm to rain down upon me from Mount AGSlympos - but it sounds like a bad idea.

Why would you want to single yourselves out? separate yourself from the rest of the community? It doesn't sound very constructive and, yes, it is elititst in my opinion.

[BOYD1981]

hmm, first there's the thing about how to be a better newbie, then there's this thing that will essentially seperate the newbies from the oldies, so the forums get overrun with newbies because the "elite oldies" are off in their own little club and will end up not caring about the other forums so it'll just all go to crap, i think there'd be less of a problem if some people just dropped their "holier than thou" attitudes...
to sum it up in two words: bad idea

[Goldmund]

Boyd et Miez:
the proposed forum is an alternative for the gen-gen, not other ones.
Okay, let's wait and see what others have to say about it - as I said earlier, I also have some doubts, but this might turn out well and spare both sides lots of frustration.

[BOYD1981]

well, it seems like the GenGen forum is the problem, so what good will another one do?

[m0ds]

I still say get rid of this forum, and use IRC for the general chit chat.

m0ds

[Privateer Puddin']

nooo #ags is already filled with useless junk chat imo

[SSH]

If you want to have a gen-gen forum without so much "noise" why not just have a second gen-gen forum, but with stricter rules? Let's face it, there really are three classes of members:

Oldies (aka Communists )
Newbies
Temporaries

by temporaries I mean the people who log on, ask a few beginners quewstions in the tech forum, demand that CJ adds RPG features and then disappear again. There will always be this kind of noise on all the forums here: that's the internet. However, us other newbies do tend to stick to the rules about which forum to post in (after some initial mistakes, due to unclear subtitling in the top level IMO) and try and stick to the rules, especially once someone has pointed the edit button out to them.

If anyone breaks the rules for the new forum, then move their thread to the other gen-gen or lock or delete it, like when people get it wrong already. I would propose that Dark Stalkey would make an excellent moderator for this new forum!

I suggest that this forum is renamed "Beginner's General Discussion" and the new one is called "Low-bandwidth General Discussion" or something else that might discourage short posts about utter rubbish.

EDIT:
Dimitri: No, no left wing/right wing but rather strict rules on posting versus less strict rules. But, I agree with what you said.

Everybody's getting too uptight about this. Just lie down and let the squirrel give you a massage... with chilli sauce Bwuhahahahah!

[Paranoia]

ii agree with Mods, lose general and use irc to do every day chat
when is a newbie not a newbie, and when do we join the elite crowd, i very much doubt i would ever get there, i've gone thro my postin crap phase, i've done one mags( even though it was shite) and on the whole, i post if its something constructive to say now, an elite club would kill this forum, but if you think us newbies are dragging the oldies down, then there will be no future for AGS, new blood keeps it going, but you will come across stuck up and no one else is welcome, there is that feeling now i'm sorry to say, but, what hell, i'll do my game, if it turns out good and i become a hero well great, if it fails, its something to learn by, i'll stop until someone tells me to f*ck off


Paranoia

[BOYD1981]

another problem that might come from a passworded forum will be people not reading the rules and then posting stuff like "why can't i get into this forum?" in the other forums which will lead to a long drawn out discussion about why...
i think a lot of the problems are down to people not reading the rules or not understanding them.
i don't know if this is relevant or not but, a few years back there was a potato shortage, and the price of a bag of chips from a fish & chip shop went from 5p to 20p, when the crisis was over the prices stayed the same, which annoyed lots of people...

[Dmitri]

SSH: Are you suggesting we have a right wing forum and a left wing forum?

Heh, it'd be interesting I guess to see which mindset fares better and which is more communal than the others. Maybe the communists, who are always helping eachother, or the capitalists, who's ambitions and achievments are an example for others.

anyway, I'm off topic

Paranoia: The basic idea it seems to me that it is not who is a newbie, there is no such thing as newbie or oldbie. And yes I know you're all thinking "Wait a minute, what about 1337 jerks and annoying people? They are noobs" well... they are not noobs. A 'newbie' as you would put it is someone unfamiliar with the community, he might make a mistake, he might accidentally put his foot in it, but IT WILL BE A MISTAKE!

There are mature people, there are smart people, there are silly people, there are jocular people, there are people who like literature, there are people who like sport. Some of these people are annoying, and so we degrade them, we call them noobs despite the fact that they might know the community quite well.

The idea behind this appears to be that Goldmund and HIS CLIQUE want to have THEIR board. They will only invite people THEY LIKE. This board has no higher status. There is no status in this community. Only people who are recognised, and people who we aren't yet familiar with. Basically what Goldmund is trying to do is somewhat good. He's organising a group of his friends, and a few others he and his friends might be impressed with to come to a board that's outside of AGS.

Goldmund: That being said, I like the idea, although I think the way you titled this thread wasn't very tactful. It won't be what you think it is, just a community of your friends and anyone you might want to join you. I do think you should go for it. But I think it should be generally outside of this community, no-one needed to know of this idea of yours, that you were organising your friends into your own community.

In short, I like the idea, but our attention needn't be drawn to it.

Edit: I do wonder if mods would truly be necessary in this forum? I mean, this will be a forum where there are friends, a closer community aside from the rabble. How much modding was required in the good old days?

And I would be highly amused to see if you later suggested in the closer knit community  "Okay, we need an elitist, elitist forum now... this community's too large again!"

Edit2 for coherence

[Robert Eric]

We have enough problems in #AGS without Gen-Gen being removed and everyone going there.

[Goldmund]

I can't see why the title of the thread is offensive.
True, passwords suck, putting fences sucks et al... ah, I'm torn, I already said this.
There are many old members and if I tried to IM them all with this proposal, I would spend all day on this - thus, I posted it here.

[Robert Eric]

No need to IM me, I get what you're saying loud and clear.  I'd personally like to see it happen, but it may not be a good idea.  The old days are gone.

[Timosity]

I've been a member for a short while, but I've browsed these forums since 2001 back on ezboards, never posted there or even cared about the community then, I used them to find new games to play while I tried to make my own.

Eventually I got round to releasing a game over a year later before I even made my first post, and that was for a demo of my first game, Less than a month later My first game was released (as it was almost complete when I released the demo)

Being twice most peoples age, I didn't even intend to post in the forums as I always thought posting stuff on the internet was a bit geeky and I would never resort to such behaviour, but people around here have similar beliefs etc.

Still, I post less than the amount of people that download my games, yet I still don't even feel accepted around here (usually just ignored, even if it's the same exact point as someone else, and I said it first) but there's no point in worrying about this type of shit.

I'm just lucky that I've got A home, A job, A life outside of the forum, and I can constantly be working on a game without having to brag about it in another forum

Also I'm drunk right now after watching a footy match, damn those Maroons, but atleast the Blues won the series 2-1, that'll learn ya.


I also think people around here just have problems finding posts that are interesting to post in, so a lot of crap gets posted, I can't remember the last time I started a post in this forum, and lately haven't found anything interesting, therefore I just haven't posted.

I try to avoid the rediculous ones as long as possible, then only then, maybe put my 2 cents worth and get out without trying to debate a useless topic.

people write too many posts to try and end a topic, then some smartarse says exactly the same thing in another way and it becomes a more useless topic.

It's just a matter of filtering things out that don't appeal to you, the other problem is most people want thier own posts to stand out and be recognised, which rarely happens in the gen gen.

If there was a forum where you had to be invited, who gets to choose who is invited? it sort of defeits the purpose, and also adds to elitism.

Though If it happened, how would people not invited know anyway
Maybe it already exists??

Also, how do people have time for irc, I stay clear of that so I can still have a life, sure it's ok occasionally, but I live in a planet with a different timezone, The forums just easier to say your bit, then do something constuctive.

Lucky it's time for a smoke, or i'd keep crapping on

[Trapezoid]

I don't think it'd work. As I've said, this forum doesn't revolve around games or status, it revolves around getting to know one another. If a newbie were to hang around in the newbie forums for a while, make a few games, then suddenly be accepted into the oldie forums-- he'd still be a newbie, because he wouldn't know anybody there. The problem with newbies is mainly in the mind of the oldies. After a while, some oldies just don't want to meet anybody new. I really hate to say it, but maybe if an oldie has reached the point where they can't deal with any new AGSers (and you can't stop AGS from reaching new people)... maybe it's time for the oldie to take a break from the forums.

[Ben]

That's what I'm doing (and what I've BEEN doing occasionally for a few months). And it's not just because of the newbies. It's the oldies too. I don't really feel like I can talk to people here anymore. The oldies here (including people like Goldmund who arrived long after me) have gotten bitter, and don't discuss the same things on this forum that they used to on the EZBoards. Would an exclusive, old-guard forum solve this problem? Maybe. I think we should try the idea and see what happens.. I honestly don't know what to expect, so I won't bother trying to predict.

I don't think it'd work. As I've said, this forum doesn't revolve around games or status, it revolves around getting to know one another.

But this forum DOES revolve around games and status. Status comes from producing or contributing to good games. Why do you think Chrille and Phil Reed and Roy Lazarovich are legends around here? It's certainly not because they post here every day.

[Jimi]

Can't there just be more moderators on this forum? Then if anyone makes a stupid thread, or makes stupid comments, delete the thread/post.

[Trapezoid]

But this forum DOES revolve around games and status. Status comes from producing or contributing to good games. Why do you think Chrille and Phil Reed and Roy Lazarovich are legends around here? It's certainly not because they post here every day.

It's more that their games that are legendary. Nobody really knows what they're all about (except for Phil, who conveys his personality pretty well in his games and occasional posts.) But I'm better friends with people like Snake, Pesty, Squinky, Timosity, LGM, etc, and I like them for who they are, not whether or not their games are finished. That's just how it works out for me.
I love the King's Quest remakes, but I don't even know who Tierra ARE, and therefore I respect their games, not them. And I can't remember what games you, Ben, are attached to, but it doesn't matter, you're a familliar face and you're generally helpful.
We've never had to think about why we respect one another before. Yes, there may be more newbies nowadays, but it's all relative. And as far as games go, this year is the most promising so far! I really can't think of how this community is suffering.

[Ben]

Snake, LGM, and the others you mention have contributed a lot, or are working on some really promising games.. But you're right in many ways that a lot of oldies may not want to admit. The reason the people we really like and care about don't post here anymore is because they're busy working on something. The forums take a backseat to the games. And that's the way it should be, even if we're not always happy with it.

And I can't remember what games you, Ben, are attached to

Well, I've attached myself like a suckerfish to a few games (Pleurghburg and some other Gaspop projects), but I've been too lazy to finish anything of my own except for the legend known as RAYMONDS KEYS...

..

I guess I need to take longer breaks from this place  

[Pessi]

This reminds me of the situation I had with my real life friends. When one of my friends first discovered IRC and I got an internet connection, we made this channel and called some of our friends that also had a connection to join in. IRC does beat talking on the phone cause it's cheaper and we could all talk at the same time. We see each other often but this way we could contact each other really easily.

Anyway, after a while there was more and more people on the channel and I realized that I didn't even know all of them. I had never seen them and they weren't talking about the things we're interested in. In fact, it was BORING, when it used to be everything but. So... we decided with my closest friends that we'd make our own little channel, that no 'outsider' could join. And so we did.

In my opinion, it has worked really well. It's sometimes a bit quiet but when we're all there we can talk about the things we want without some guys we don't even know, disturbing the converstation just with their presence.

I don't know if that goes for this situation as it is, but it reminds it very much, I think. Hopefully it also shows where I stand on this issue.

There's one negative thing that I can think of, though. I really don't like those guys that are on the old channel. The new guys that is. I actually never even visit the channel because I'm having a lot better time in the new one. And I suppose that would be kind of a bad thing here.

PS. Don't get me wrong, I don't use IRC all the time. In fact, I use it very rarely nowadays. I try to stay off the computer as much as possible as it kind of makes one lazy in "real life". And contrary to what one would think, it makes me work on computer art, for example, much more effectively. Not that it could've been seen lately though.

[Barcik]

I see to alternatives for this to work.

1) Let's call this 'eltitist forum' a name that will make us not feel as evil: On many boards there there is a special forum for people who contributed more to the community. They are only able to talk in the forum if they qualify, according to the requirements. This way, it's not exactly elitism in the manner of "I like you better, you join", but a more rules-based one.
2) I prefer this one. Make this board just as you described it, but not as a part of the AGS forums. Thus, no discrimination is created in the AGS community itself, as it is just a nice little bunch of friends to whom 'that other forum' belongs.

[Trapezoid]

I still think it's a little selfish. I still think the problem has more to do with the oldies' perception of the newbies than the actual newbies...

[Barcik]

What's wrong with a selfish solution?

[Dmitri]

I can't see why the title of the thread is offensive.
True, passwords suck, putting fences sucks et al... ah, I'm torn, I already said this.
There are many old members and if I tried to IM them all with this proposal, I would spend all day on this - thus, I posted it here.

I didn't say it was offensive, I said pretty much what Barcik said. It could have a better name... I dunno, like "password AGS forum"

Your point about old members being numerous is also irrelevant. Because we'll be arguing about this for weeks on end.

And another point I tried to make is that people NEED NOT KNOW that these forums exist until they are invited... although there were a couple valid points later on as to why this would be a bad idea. The fact that a newbie would know all the newbies and would suddenly be invited to this new password forum and not know anybody.

[Barcik]

Well, in theory at least, it is not as if the users of this forum will never use the regular ones.

[Pumaman]

I've just come to this forum for the first time in a few days and been confronted by this whole mess.

I have to admit, I've also felt a bit distanced from this community lately, but not really been able to work out why. But Rode's post in the other thread really struck a chord:

What do I think about Yufster, Jimi (Don't mean to single anyone out in particular, just the first names that came to me) and the other younger members? Well, I'm 24 years old. I can't really relate to them. The internet was a very different place when I was in my mid teens. I don't know what it's like to bring teenage angst to the digital masses for advice. All I had was black t-shirts and loud music. When I read posts about 12 year olds being madly in love I don't know what to say.

It's like in real life - some people you get on with, some people you don't, usually due to clashing personalities.

It's nobody's fault in particular, it just happens when you have large groups.

With AGS, we were really lucky with the group of people we had to start with. We were all similar in age and interests.

But since the community expanded, there is a much wider range of different people here. Which is a good thing in a way, but a bad thing in other ways.

I'd be in favour of an alternate Gen Gen forum, for 'oldies' - simply because it should keep everyone happy. Most of these people hardly post on this forum any more anyway, so it's not going to divert people away. What it would do is create a different environment for people who want less hectic discussion to go to.

The other alternative that I am seriously considering is m0ds' suggestion of shutting down this gen gen forum. Probably due to the size of the community, it has almost become unmanagable lately and something had to give - and it just has.

[Robert Eric]

If those are the only two options, I'd vote for the first.  The newbies could speak freely in an envirenment which contains people who discuss the same things they want to, and in the same way they do.  The oldies can talk in their own forum and not have to give a damn about the newbies or the Gen-Gen...except for the moderators.

[undergroundling]

As a newbie, I think it would be a little unfair to exclude people from this "oldies" forum.  Personally, I would rather talk with a lot of the oldies on here than most of the newbies, as I find threads with the oldies to generally be more entertaining and insightful.  How would one determine who is to be allowed to post on this oldie forum?  If it comes to this, I'm in favor of simply shutting down Gen Gen and leaving idle chat to IRC.

[misterx]

Hmm I have learnt so much from other people here would hate to see us newbies excluded from a forum.

But maybe if would could still read the posts, but not post that would work. If we had a question on a topic, we could always PM the person.

That way, the forum doesnt get flooded, but the newbies arent left out in the cold.

I have been impressed with these forums, even though i have only been here a week, i hope things manage to get sorted.

[MillsJROSS]

Just because there might be an exclusive board, though, doesn't mean oldies can't partake in the boards for the general masses. And anyway, your responses, misterx and undergroundling, show another reason this could be useful. The oldie forums can be seen as a goal, so that those who wish to enjoy the company of the elite (I'm not going to lie, it's elitism, no way around it), will respect the rules and if posts are well thought out and such, may very well be able to go to those forums too.

I'm for this idea.

-MillsJROSS

[Las Naranjas]

In essence "Just because I'm better than you, doesn't mean I can't talk to you"

[RickJ]

The main purpose of the gen-gen forum is to keep all the crap out of the other forums.    A secondary purpose, I suppose, is  that a discussion or heated debate about polictics this or social issue that, would perhaps provide inspiration for an AGS project.  

Being the old fart I am, I haven't found much of interest for me in the gen-gen forum, so I just don't waste much time there.    I check in once in a while, when I am bored and want to waste some time.   It's not surprising to me that some of you have matured over the years and now find the gen-gen fare less than fulfilling and  somewhat childish.  Just do what I do, spend your time on more productive things.

The only problem I have with the gen-gen forum is that some individuals tend to engage in vicious personal attacks upon those who disagree with their opinions.  I think this practice is counter productive and does nothing for the advancement of AGS or adventure gaming.  

If some people want a place to go where they can agree with each other by all means setup your own forum and let CJ and the rest us be.  

Cheers

[juncmodule]

I must admit, I am very much in favor of shutting down the gen-gen forum. It tends to spill over into other forums which just ticks me off. I was replying to a thread in AGS Chit chat (started by Yufster) about ripping sprites and Undergroundling pops in and says, "I found you Yufster" and does not contribute a sprite, bandwidth, web space, just clogs up a useful thread. I don't always read threads in the gen-gen forum and even if I do, I don't want to play the "find so in so" game so why should it be forced on me. I'm sorry but, I don't think the newbies should have a say in this (which would include me and make my post pointless I suppose :) I think a new "general"-type forum with extremely strict moderators, rules, and joining criteria is an excellent idea. I am also in favor of shutting down the gen-gen forum. I believe that the debate between these two things is seperate though. Regardless of what we do with gen-gen, I believe a new "gen-type" forum needs to be created.

EDIT: Oh, yeah. One more thing. Let's say I don't like (insert oldie name here). I think he's a jerk that posts sexist crap and argues with people all the time. Do I want (insert oldie name here) to go away? NO. (insert oldie name here) is a major oldie who I respect because he is just that. I believe this "gen-type" forum should be established to help keep those people and bring back the few that left, if they can be brought back. If you are a newbie and disagree with that...well, that's why you are a newbie now isn't it. Not knowing where to put your respect is probably the biggest newbie problem.

later,
-junc

[Timosity]

I don't think it would be a good idea to shut down the gen gen.

But I know it gets abused every now and then, usually round holiday periods, after exams etc, which is exactly what happened 6 months ago in Jan. It just seems to happen.

Also with the fact of more and more quality games released these days, more people know about it, eg. JAPNCA, NIAR, TUM, Adventures of Fatman, Apprentice and Ignac coming soon (just to name a few, There's also plenty of new games coming soon too)

All that will happen is people will slowly change the Chit Chat forum into a gen gen.

Start a oldies forum if you like, who's gonna know? But It will either work or just be a bit boring for the oldies, plus I think alot of them that post very occasionally, like the audience, and the power they have, in an oldies forum they are all equal, and won't be able to be as witty casue everyone will just get all the in jokes. (but then again, at least more people will get them)
Also they may be a bit more relaxed

Just do what you think is right, maybe even a posting limit in the gen gen per day, just so people have to think more carefully before they post.

enough said, CJ is really the only one that can make the decision, as it's his bandwidth and has been around the longest, and his decision will be more respected than anyone elses.

soon SCIVGA will be out, which will probably be the major competition, maybe more people will be attracted there and release the load here abit.
Time will only tell.

[undergroundling]

Junc - In reference to me "popping in" to that thread on T&C, I realize that was OT and inappropriate for that subject, but if you'll look at the vast majority of my posts, most of them are either C+C, comments/criticisms on other AGSers games, or responses (like this one) to substantial threads in the Gen Gen forums.  If you're going to use me as an example of the Gen Gen forum "spilling over," I would appreciate it if you would consider my other post content and not this one stand-alone incident.

Also, in response to Mills about people striving to be allowed to the elite forum, I think that will just make the board atmosphere even worse than it is now.  It will degrade into a competition to see who can get onto the oldies board.  Another likely effect would be a lot of newbies leaving if they couldn't get the help/feedback they need from the oldies.  Now, granted some newbies leaving wouldn't be all that bad, but if there is a mass exodus of newbies and only a handful of people left on these boards, these boards will soon die out leaving just the oldie board.  Unless of course, this is your masterplan.

[Czar]

WEll, a lot has been said, and i dont want to repeat it, except for this. The newbies could have a chance to lurk on those forums, but not post, so in a way they could meet the personality of a oldie, and still not interfere(sp) in their discussion...
So all in all, i think there should be a poll, in which only the oldies could vote....in a way...

[Hobbes]

There's only one thing I would hate to see:

The gen-gen forum flooded by 12-13 year old youngsters and all the older members in another forum.

I'm 21. True, it's actually quite young. Although I feel older, always have, always will. All my friends in real life are older, I just don't relate very well to people who are younger than me. But, considering my status in the AGS community, I'm a newbie. I have yet to contribute a game, and only rarely partake in the discussions.

However, I read the posts of the "oldies" with interest. I can't begin to describe how it makes me feel when one of the oldies replies to what I write. It's far more important to me than having newbies respond.

Now, I would hate to lose these rare moments or see a lot of the people I respect vanish from these forums. True, they can still post here... but if they have a place of their own which is guaranteed to have discussions of interest, why come back here?

True, if that is what they want to do, I can't blame them. If I were an oldie, I'd probably want the same.

The mixed feelings this leaves me with, automatically leads me to the second option: Shut down the gen-gen forum. It's a bandwith eating monster and doesn't really contribute to the community.

As far as I can see it, that would be the only viable solution.

[Trapezoid]

I'm still not sure what the problem is and why it needs to be "fixed."
This is not a tiny community anymore, it's a fairly open forum, and we need to deal with it carefully. I can't believe some of you would snub the newbies just because they're newbies. CJ's had to deal with more newbies than ANY of you (including you), and he's still polite. And sane.
What few Trolls we've had over the years were all jokes and have disappeared. Even the 13 year olds are pretty polite around here, for 13 year olds. There are hardly any real persistant annoyances. If a person is *that bad*, then odds are they'll disappear. Despite all the newbies, there are more professional quality games than ever. The forums are just bigger, the ratios are still about the same.

[Nellie]

I think Trapezoid is mainly right.  The problem mostly comes from the oldbies' perceptions, rather than actual change in the forums.

'The lowering quality of the forums' threads have been going on for at least as long as I joined, and that was over 2 years ago.  Actually, some things have got better in the forums.  Doesn't anyone remember those 'just testing my signature' threads we used to get?

On top of this, consider that the 'big topics' - God, Evolution, Politics, Morals, blah - have already been covered by the oldbies multiple times, and so of course the threads in Gen Gen will contain less thoughtful discussion now than previously.  This is not because of the influx of newbies, but because there's less thoughtful topics for the oldbies to cover.  When a newbie starts up a thread about God, they even get some oldbies posting, telling them the discussion has been done before and is pointless!

Despite all this, I'm in favour of a second, invitation-only, forum.  I don't believe for a second that oldbies will stop posting in this forum - they don't have a monopoly on interesting topics, and will continue to respond to threads that catch their attention.  Also, it will prove the problem either way - either the (attitude towards) newbies are the problem, in which case the new forum will be a roaring success, or they aren't, in which case it won't.

Plus it might go some way towards removing the increasingly paranoid and humourless attitude in here.  Honestly, I reckon some of the lighthearted threads that turned up in the ezboard forums would be locked within seconds here if a newbie started them:

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fdosuserforumsgeneraldiscussion.showMessage?topicID=960.topic

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fdosuserforumsgeneraldiscussion.showMessage?topicID=998.topic

http://pub6.ezboard.com/fdosuserforumsgeneraldiscussion.showMessage?topicID=1101.topic

[Robert Eric]

 



Memories.

[Trapezoid]

I just had an idea which I PM'd to Chris.
10 post per day limit...

[SSH]

Trap: then people will log out and post as guests...   and would it apply to all forums? What about people who are replying to lots of questions in the tech forums?

[Chrille]

Hmm, a post limit has been discussed I think. It would be even better if Chris could set post limits to only those who post too much nonsense and then remove it if they improve their manners.

[Trapezoid]

I also suggested that the limit not apply in the tech forum, and that it turns off after you've been registered for a certain period (maybe a few months.)
I don't know about posting as a guest... Maybe it could go by the IP address.

Also, I wouldn't want it to only apply to certain nuisances. If this sort of thing is done it needs to be objective.

[Pumaman]

The gen gen is a useful forum - it allows more of a community spirit to evolve because people can talk about stuff other than adventure games.

However, lately it's just too fast for many members. Many of us, particularly the 'oldies', tend to stop by here once a day or less - whereas there is another group of people who tend to read the forum much more regularly.

This causes an effect where you can read the forum one day, come back the next day and find that all the posts you were interested in have scrolled off the bottom of the page.

For example, I didn't read this forum on Tuesday. The following day I check in, and find a new 172-post thread. How are we supposed to keep up?

A new, more relaxed, forum where those of us who are less hyperactive can go to have leisurely discussions sounds like a good idea for all concerned, and it would also stop the moaning that tends to happen here about the state of the forum.

Therefore, I am proposing to give it a 1 month trial. After a month, we can review it and decide what to do.

Now, the main thing are the criteria for this new forum. It's important to do this right, so that it works and doesn't cause any resentment and so forth.

The two main questions are:
1. Should the forum be visible or hidden to non-members?

There are arguments both ways for this. The advantage of it being visible is that non-members can still lurk and get a feel for what's going on. It would also mean that new members would know there was an alternative, if the gen gen was too childish for them.

Being hidden on the other hand would stop the inevitable "how can i get axx to teh forum" style posts and would stop people asking questions about it.

2. How are new members recruited to the forum?

Who should be a member? Who decides? The problem is at this point that starting the forum now and hand-picking members is inevitably going to make some people bitter if they are left out but feel they should be part of it. How can we deal with this?

Once it is established, how are new members recruited? Should it get any new members at all?

Things to consider, people.

I just had an idea which I PM'd to Chris.
10 post per day limit...

I think enforcing a limit might be going too far - but an alternative, more moderate solution that was suggested to me was to have everybody's average number of posts per day displayed under their avatar.
The number could turn yellow if they were posting more than a set amount (eg. 10 per day), and turn red if they were way over-posting (eg. 20 per day).

Hopefully this could embarass them into slowing down... any thoughts?

[Czar]

Why did it even have to come to this, i remember that at the start of the year it was the biggest nebie incoming, i remember that from cca. 500 it came in one month to 800-900.
So i think basicly the biggest newbie flood has passed and now they just need to adjust to the enviroment...
Maybe i'm talkin nonsense and making typos, but thats just a newbie opinion(btw i've been there since the last dos version the 2.32, innit?   )

[Goldmund]

Pumaman:
I'm for invisible.
That's because I didn't think of the new forum as An Example of Thoughtful and Fyne Posting, but more like an old community area. For example, I love to read nonsense from, say, Las Naranjas, whereas I don't like to read nonsense from unknown people! That's selfish and xenophobic and what not, but I simply think that oldbies shouldn't feel compelled by invisible watchers to prove smarter than they are.
Such a forum may become boring very quickly!

As for choosing members, I say first let's register all people from ezboards.
Reason:
That's the ONLY clear criterion, not based on any judgements on people's intelligence or whatever.
Was it made only for people with a game, what about Gilbot (or me, in a quieter voice)?
THEN, people can simply remember who should also be invited from YABB forums and do so.

And for people worried for oldbies disappearing:
It's going (at least I think so) to be just a gen-gen for old members, people who know themselves well, not an equivalent of technical, game announcment or general forum!

[TheDude]

As a newbie, i'm all for the oldies having their own forum if they want it. If it's invisible to us, then surely ours should be invisible to them since it'd be a little unfair if we couldn't see their convo's but they could nose in on ours.

[Trapezoid]

No way we're doing full segregation. If we're making an oldies forum, I say let the newbies lurk. Nobody ever said they had a problem with the newbies READING their posts, did they?
That said, for a newbie to behave they need more than moderators. They need the oldies to set a good example, right? If we do make an Oldies Forum, the oldies had better not neglect the original General Forum. It's not worth it to have an Oldies Forum if it means we'll no longer be there to help and teach the newbies.

[Nellie]

I strongly second that - the newbies should be able to read the oldbies forum.

On the 'posting nonsense' issue, I think we should just be upfront about it.  Either we say everybody is allowed to post silly things, JoeSmith300 just as much as Las Naranjas, or we simply say it's a privilege of the oldbies forum, but has to be rationed in Gen Gen because of the bandwidth.  I think nonsense posts will be a rare occurence in the Oldbies forum anyway, so there won't be much difference.

Though that depends how you define nonsense, I suppose.


On recruiting members, just get a few obvious oldbies together (the uber-oldbies, as it were), and get them to compile a list of members who should join.  When there's disagreement there could be a majority vote (with more than a majority of 1 needed if you want the forums to be super-exclusive ).  In practice this will probably mirror Goldmund's suggestion closely, but it's a much cooler 'secret-society' idea than his, so it's clearly superior.

Heck, if there's disagreement, the newbie/middlebie in question could even be invited to put their case forward to the panel, for further consideration.

And in future, newbies who've attracted the panel's attention and are a borderline case could be sent a PM hinting that a contribution to the community (a tutorial, review, music, whatever) or just maintaining their good form for a while will get them in.  The thing could be an encouragement for people to get involved in community stuff.

Or to send the oldbies bribes in hard cash, naturally.

[MrColossal]

i think this is all pretty sad and i keep thinking of the sentence that helm said once, and i said, and dg said and cj said and everyone has said at least once in their life here

shouldn't we be more focused on making games and not posting in a forum

[Trapezoid]

Wait, if we all focused on making games, which would allegedly make the forums a better place, wouldn't we then be more compelled to be at the improved forums? AHhhh paradox!!!

[Scummbuddy]

How about this:

We have the AGS Awards, we could use them to award people entrance to post in the Olbie thread.  If someone has showed enough spirit in the year or less they've been here, and deserve the jump, then yes, do it, by all means, if not, then they have the next year.

"Gilmore, I called your name, didn't I?" "No coach, you didn't."  "Oh well, better luck next year.  har har" <Punch> "That wasn't very nice, coach!"

[juncmodule]

I like Goldmund's idea for selecting members because it seems fair.

As far as hidden or not, once again, I second Goldmund's idea. I honestly think it would just breed envy and issues between members of the board.

Perhaps after a long trial period (not counting the initial trial period) we could let members in based on ideas like Scummbuddy's. But, initially I think giving it a competition "air" is a REALLY bad idea. Newbies are already getting their panties up in a bunch over this.

Also after the long trial period consideration could be given to "unhiding" it.

Hiding it and inviting ONLY members to the old forum is probably the safest way to deal with people that disagree with the idea. Honestly, crying and pouting about it will just prove that they don't need to be a part of it. Another thing, if they could lurk they would be more inclined to start more annoying threads in gen-gen.

later,
-junc

[Trapezoid]

Would we allow cross-posting in both forums? I mean, what if I have an idea for a thread that I'd like both Newbies and Oldies to see? If I post it in the Oldies forum, Newbies might not bother looking there because they can't post. And if I post it in the original General Forum, there are Oldies who avoid the place because it contain Newbies. Crikey.

[MillsJROSS]

Get this idea! There will not be a newbie forum and an oldie forum. It's going to be an oldie forum and a general mass forum. The oldies won't just ignore this forum once they have their own forum. And if they want to share something with the AGS community as a whole then they'd put it on the general mass forum. If they just want the oldies to know about it, then the oldies forum. It isn't that complicated.

I can see both sides for keeping it secret and allowing people to read it. So I won't argue either way.

-MillsJROSS

[Evil]

If we are yelling at eachother then why do we even bother? You all know this will lead to many, many threads about "Not being cool enough"...

[TerranRich]

Visible or non-visible?

I say visible, and lurk-only status to non-members. I think that's fair enough. Also, amend to the rules on the Gen Mass forum, to NOT ask about getting access to the Low Bandwidth Gen forum. I seem to remember a secret members-only area of the EZBoard forums, for members who were working on the Demo Quest I believe. I never once asked about it, even tho I was a newbie at the time of the EZBoard-YaBB transition.

Methods of Naturalization?

At first have a list of everybody registered, starting with the oldest, then back down to the newest. Have a monthly review with the "elite few" (uber-oldies) and review like the next 10 on the list. Whoever seems to be mature enough to handle it can be granted access, and whoever doesn't will be put into next month's grouping. If a member has failed 5 (?) times, (s)he will be put at the very bottom of the list, with all the uber-newbies.

How does that sound? I rather like that idea. It still gives everybody a chance, starting with the not-so-oldies and going down from there. It's a system at least.

[Trapezoid]

Get this idea! There will not be a newbie forum and an oldie forum. It's going to be an oldie forum and a general mass forum. The oldies won't just ignore this forum once they have their own forum. And if they want to share something with the AGS community as a whole then they'd put it on the general mass forum. If they just want the oldies to know about it, then the oldies forum. It isn't that complicated.

But this hypothetical Oldies Forum is so that the Oldies don't have to deal with the Newbies. Therefore, there would be some sort of split. What's the point of a new forum if the people who use it are still going to use the old forum?

[Dmitri]

Trap, that's exactly what I was wondering on my way to school, if we have an oldie forum, who has a post which they want only oldies to view?

I mean, getting this forum is all good and well. but I mean, when I was on irc, I was always trying to get at RE, why you ask? Well, I don't really know, it was fun trying, but once we were finally on at the same time I found I didn't ACTUALLY have much I wanted to know/ask/say. It was just fun trying to get to talk to my friend because of the horrible 7 hour time difference.

[MrColossal]

wouldn't we rather CJ focus on AGS and not corraling people into forums

and what about the person sitting there in front of their comp reading these forums saying "yea a forum for us oldies! just what the doctor ordered!" and then the forum opens and they don't get invited. anger

again, we're here to make games. if you spend the majority of your time here in gen gen posting things then you aren't making games. you want to get in good with the community, make a game, don't post randomly and quickly

tighten the rules of registration, set a daily post count [only here and in ags gen maybe]

get the mods back in action, confront through PM's people you feel are ignoring the rules, confront a mod about it.

tons of people break the forum rules constantly in every forum. oldies newbies youngbies tallbies wallabies and i don't just mean people who post in the wrong forum. how many people post in the critics forum "WOW!" or "NEAT!"

again bah whatever

eric

[RickJ]

Has anyone noticed the absence of many notable and acomplished AGSers from this discussion.  Perhaps there already is an elitist forum and we just haven't been invited.   :o

[Andail]

Sssh, Rick

I think there are good both cons and pros...I think CJ is already about to give it a test-run anyway, so we'll soon see.

The main reason I see is that we're losing old members (although some have return during the summer, like Vargtass, 2ma2 and Goldmund), and this is of course mainly due to lack of time or other reasons, but surely also because of the fast posting-rate and so many new faces it's impossible to keep track of them, thus creating a feeling of alienation towards the forums.

For this reason, an oldie-club where people can hang out despite lack of time or whatever, and still catch up in the latest debates.
A forum where we don't have to spend half the time yelling on people for not following the rules, or nag and bicker about forum policies and codex and whatnot. Like those clubs for american vietnam veterans, or something.

Then again, the selecting procedure will perhaps be too painful for people to accept it. To be honest, I can't really see how it can be solved smoothly. We will probably have a little conference during mittens and have a long and serious discussion.

[bspeers100]

If a new forum keeps some of the olders back, then I say go for it.  But I agree, there's no reason why there has to be this focus on gen gen.  It really distracts from making games (though occasionally, alliances are formed here that lead to games)--but then, most oldbies aren't making games anymore.

I consider myself an old, old oldbie myself, but frankly, I don't care about a new forum one way or the other (apart from the slight idea I had above).

One way to keep people from the "elitist" opinion, is to make *this* the elitist forum, and that other one for old stupid farts like me who are too slow and stupid to comprehend the fast pace of today's youth.  In fact, I would put that in the title: "The stupid overblown forum for older nastalgic losers who have given up on modern society and created a hermitage but still visit just for the company, the morons, why can't they just relax and chat like the rest of us, siiiiigh." (do I need a smiley here?)

I seriously think a very negative title is in order to remove any stench of elitism.  Because it isn't elitism.  We long-term prisoners are no better than the cute, young pups.  We're just frightened and reactionary, and proud of it.  Give us a retirement home where we can die.

Or don't.

[Random Newbie]

STFU 0LDBiE!!!

[Jimi]

Well done. You're making newbies look briliantly god! ¬_¬

[DGMacphee]

[Czar]

Anyway, listen.
I dont think it would come too often to : How do i axx the oldBie for00m???
Cause we already have situations like this and i think the mods handle it pretty well. And oc, for caution, under the forum name it should stand, only for qualified members, like under Adventure chit-chat it says general talikn about adventur games, right?
So what i think should be done CJ should make a trial but 2 months, and the invitation would work like this; the ones who cj selects to be in the first run, they will do the Dryhump way, that is once a week they review the one who is next on the list and accept him as a member, and if he doesnt qualify, he stays, and if he has lets say 5 penalty points, he gets on the bottom of the list.
I dont think i even have to repeat that newbies should be able to lurk, cause i think everybody said that in their posts, right?
After the trial the community decides if this is a good idea, then we keep it. AND this could also be a good tutoring lesson, so everyone gets to know should a normal member act, etc. etc. ( i think the most of us have been in a kindergarten, so i dont have to continue to explain).
And yes, i agree with Eric, we should be more into making games.
And if the oldies want to come back its their choice. Cause i dont think Gen gen is the only forum section around.
Anyway, i remeber on Ezboard there was a locked section (the developing one), so smthn like this was done before....

[Scummbuddy]

every week ananlyze over 500 members?!?  we have better things to do.   we could either do it the one year thing at the ags awards or a couple times a year.

i like the idea of starting with those who were on the ezboards to begin with.

and yes, let the others lurk, but if they feel they have something to add, then they can private message the topic beginner of the said thread.

Towards the daily posts thing that seems to have been enacted, I don't want people that help a lot to be detered from posting helping posts.

[Czar]

no no. not 500, but the top 10 on their list...Read on the top of the page what Dryhump said...
Something on that topic.

[undergroundling]

Dryhump suggested a monthly review of the next 10 people on the list.  I think that's a little harsh.  It would be about 7 years until you finally got down to me.  I think that's longer than CJ has even been making AGS.

[RickJ]

bspeers100:  hehehe, I like the sounds of that title.    

[juncmodule]

How about this...

Oldbie forum starts with only members from ez-board. After that, members that have been ACTIVE members of this forum for a set amount of years just automatically become members of the oldbie forum. (because at that point you would be a oldbie). In addition to that there could be the whole oldbies elect members kind of thing that they could work out at a later date.

So...when is a decision going to be made about this? I think a lot of people have voiced a lot of really good opinions and ideas...I doubt we will all come to a consensus. The newbies want it to be set up so they can be members, and the oldbies don't. That debate is just going to run around in circles forever.

eh,
-junc

[MrColossal]

and what happens when that forum fills up and people are posting stupid things? another forum?

and just cause someone's been around for a long time doesn't make them mature

[juncmodule]

Then, it should be closed/merged back with gen-gen.

I disagree somewhat with the "doesn't mature" thing. Look at Barcik and FlippyD. They were pretty annoying at one point but, I don't think they are now...maybe I'm wrong, but they don't ever annoy me.

The thing is, give a person a few months to smooth out, everyone deserves a chance at least. After that give them more time to fully settle in and just earn their way in. But, in the event that they don't "earn" their way in, after a year or two, they just deserve to be part of the oldbies forum, otherwise the oldbies could be considered hipocrites IMHO.

I honestly don't think that the more annoying people will last that long. If they do, then they will have to be dealt with appropriately. I think investing time in someone that has been an active member of the board is worthwhile. Someone that just signed up yesterday...it's a waste of time to babysit them until they get the hang of things (at least after they've been told a dozen times).

later,
-junc

[RickJ]

I honestly don't think that the more annoying people will last that long. If they do, then they will have to be dealt with appropriately. ....

Junc:  I can agree with much of what you say.  I always thought that  being "dealt with appropiately" meant being relegated to the gen-gen forum.  

=====

I think I am going to throw my lot in with the newbies, at least the ones who are sincere and are willing to put some time into what they are doing.   I can handle enthauasism and annoyances as long as they are not accompanied by deception,  and mind games.    

[Nellie]

Hang on, I thought we were using 'oldbie' and 'newbie' as convenient terms, rather than literal ones.  The point of the forum is to be a gathering place for people who are thoughtful and mature, and don't post too much.  Oldbies are naturally more likely to fit that description, but there's no way that being an oldbie guarantees maturity, or that newbies are all unsuitable.

If someone joined the forums and, over a few months, showed that they were calm, mature, and made thought-provoking topics, I'd hate to think they wouldn't be allowed in the oldbie forums just because they hadn't been here for a year or whatever.

[Pessi]

I think there's a little misunderstanding here.

Some people say there should be another general discussion forum for thought-out discussion, and the oldies would obviously get there.

And then some other people say there should be a new forum for the oldbies because the certain bunch consists of 'old friends', so to say. It would just be a place for them to hang out. Not meaning they would only post thought-out stuff. Just fooling around like they used to. And I think this was the original idea.

Basically, as far as I can see, the selection of the members wouldn't be that hard. I mean, the bunch knows who were there then and are here now.

In the final analysis, I'm thinking the new forum might be also a bad idea (contrary to what I posted earlier). People - those who supposedly wouldn't get to visit the forum - are taking it surprisingly hard. If it splits the community into newbies and oldbies, I don't think we should go for it - it would be less of a community. If it would have been just a place for the veterans to hang out when they want, it would have been good. But it seems like the first option is where we are going right now...  

Finally, I think we definitely shouldn't go for picking like 10 or so members a month that would get into the forum. I mean, at first, Chris made the forums (only technical discussion) so AGS users could help each other when they confront problems as it leaves more free time for CJ, and more time for him to concentrate on developing AGS.

As there were discussion on the technical forum about adventure games in general as well, CJ decided to make another forum for that - so it wouldn't clutter up the techincal forum, as well as making the community stronger. And it was the very same way the other forums hit the light of the day.

And look where we're going: we're separating good and bad members and making separate forums for each (to exaggerate a bit). It's silly and it doesn't serve any of the original purposes of these forums. In fact, the forums would become more of a burden for CJ, than a place to help and on the other hand, a place where to relax. It seems like we're not building this community - we're breaking it down. And in this way, the original idea is better... In my opinion!

I say we should either make games or discuss about them with our foreign acquaintances. If it goes beyond that - to general discussion - we should remember to respect each other as we would if we were to meet in real life. Debates are great, but when they get negative and serious connotations... it's not why we came here. We came here to have good time.

[Hobbes]

Pessi, you couldn't be more right.

Now I'm going to finish off my Demo so I can finally have an accepted place here.

[Femme Stab Mode >:D]

Once, the AGS forums were a happy family. Newbies received good advice and enjoyed the company of oldies and after some time they became oldies themselves.All was fine until one day, the unthinkable happened... The oldies didn't like newbies anymore. They put up borders to keep the newbies out and only let in who they liked. After some time the oldies lost all touch with the newbies. They didn't know who to let in as they didn't know who was suitable. Slowly, the oldies witheredaway, their numbers ever declining as the newbies forgot about them...

[juncmodule]

To quote myself:

In addition to that there could be the whole oldbies elect members kind of thing that they could work out at a later date.

I think maybe you missed that one .

Pessi: I must say I am glad to see you posting here again. You disappeared about a month after I signed up and then everyone talked about you. From your post I see why.

I agree that the way people are thinking about this isn't quite right. I suprised that newbies are getting all upset. I only stand on the side of the oldbies because, I see a problem in which they may eventually begin to leave, I want to solve that problem. My own suggestions for this newbie forum would exclude myself from them. It seems that I am one of the few newbies that is capable of saying "whatever keeps people here". I'm not offended or insulted because it obviously has nothing to do with me. I think some newbies are taking it too personally which points back to the root of the problem.

Regardless, I can see your points very clearly. I am well aware that this could be a bad idea. The seperation could lead to bad things. So, perhaps seperating the gen-gen forum and the criteria for what could be posted there is a better idea. Much like other forums have been seperated to alleviate problems. Same with this one. Not into newbies and oldbies, but into different...subjects.

Perhaps the oldbies need to be more specific as to what they want in their forum, perhaps THEY, and not the newbies, need to come up with the rules for posting. Everyone could have access. This could (maybe) satisfy everyone.

Perhaps more strict moderating could solve the problems. Moderators could send standardized warning messages in the form of a PM to new members who average over 14 to 20 posts a week (I think that is a lot, maybe I'm wrong, my average is 7 a week). If the newbie fails to comply, ban their IP for three days. When they return, restart the process.

I guess in the end, what it comes down to, is we are all just going to have to deal with the bullshit.

I find it very unfortunate that Yufster has not posted here this week. I expect that she would have calmed down in time and become an excellent member (m0ds, you are working on that right? You will make sure she comes back? ). I'm sure all of this bickering is driving away even more cool headed newbies-with potential.

eh,
-junc

[Pumaman]

It's interesting - since this whole topic exploded, this forum has calmed down a lot. Look at the thread list - there are four days worth of threads on on the first page. It hasn't been like that in a long time.

So if people can carry on posting at the more sensible rate that the have been over the last few days, we may well not need to do anything after all.

[scotch]

I agree, it's certainly quietened down now, and there aren't any really bad posts or posters at the moment.  If the forums are to improve further it's going to take some effort from more responsible members to start some interesting threads now.

[Czar]

Well, to answer some of your statements:
I dont see any proof that the newbies would be offended in ANY way that they cant go in the oldies forum.Thats as for one.
And my opinion is that we DONT need a new forum, cause that is totally unnecessary, and not just because now gen gen is calmed down, but because if some oldie REALLY REALLY neads a thread that excludes newbies can always put a mark as [oldie thread].
Anyway the most reasonable post in the most less words i think MrColossal wrote. When you think about it, that will only be another forum to post stupid things, and who says a just cuz youre a oldie youre mature( right m0ds?    )... And yeah, if Goldmund, or anyone else needs a place to talk to the oldies, he can always make a forums by himself outside of ags, so the two dont get ?involved?.
Anyway thats all for now.

And yeah OT :  Did anyone notice a bug in the forum replying, i.e. when i write somthing, and then i press home so i want to correct something at the start of the line, when i use space or any letter, the sentence wont move forward.

edit: and btw i noticed some of this posts are now reality, i noticed jimmy has daily post counting, hes yellow  

[Jimi]

I think an oldies forum would be god for oldbies, but like someone said before, they'd forget about the other forums, and not help anyone. Also, most of the threads in this forum are started by newbies, so i was just thinking that the oldbies forum might have hardly anything going on in it.

[undergroundling]

I agree with Czar that if the oldies want a forum, they should just go start one on their own and leave the offical forums alone.  If a newbie really goes through the trouble of seeking out this separate board, then let them join, don't be exclusive, but make it clear that you have the power to ban them.  The oldie forum could be a super-moderated elitist forum if you want, but I think we should continue to allow freedom of expression on the offical boards and not have any restricted areas.

[Scid]

I'm con. It would not be fun to arrive here, as a newbie, and find out I'm being excluded from something on the grounds of being new. Especially if that forum was created for the sole reason of excluding people like me from conversation. I would be pissed off.

If we are going to have this, and I don't have much time to follow the conversation, so I don't know towards what conclusion this topic is heading for, I'd rather like the forum to be kept secret, and to be based on a postcount number - say anyone with over 250 posts can enter - rather than an invite only type. Whew. Big sentence, that

[Privateer Puddin']

sorry scid, but post count doesnt mean post quality

[Bob The Hun]

The problem with a post-count entry is that it would most likely end up with people posting as much as they can just to achieve the 250-post mark, making the forum multiple times worse. It also excludes people who may be an oldie when it comes to making games or contributions but only post when neccessary.

[Ginny]

At first I thought to ignore this thread since I wouldn't care much whatever the desicion, but if creating such an "oldies" forum would cause oldies who I respect very much and who's advice is very valuable, to leave or post much less in the other forums.

I think since the genral discussion forums is what seems to be causing the problem, it might be a good idea to simply make the rules stricter than they are now, and like someone said, maybe add more moderators, so that if topics get too heated or if there are personal attacks, this would be locked or deleted.
Closing down the general forum would be fine with me too, but then there wouldn't be anywhere to discuss things un-related to games, and just get to know people. IRC isn't very fit for this since it has a much lighter atmosphere, and it's practically impossible to discuss more than one topic at once, as opposed to threads where you post your view and then move on to the next thread. Not to mention the fact that not everybody has or can use IRC, and some don't want to.

Personally I think the best solution is just to stay clear of the general forum until it all calms down, but if stuff from the general forum affect the other forums than this isn't helping.

juncmodule: I disagree about warning someone if they post more than a certain number, cause even if someone posts 100-200 per week ( :o well maybe that is too much... ), these posts might all be constructive and might all add something to the community, in which case it's not a bad thing at all. It's when those posts are pointless and without anything to say or add that they should be considered too much. (Though when people post praise in the Critic's Lounge without adding anything it's not a bad thing, imagine if someone posted a perfect image and noone would reply cause they had nothing to critisice?).

That's all I have to say on the topic, and I just hope that if an oldies forum is created, that it wouldn't detract from the other forums.
Newbies aren't bad in general (being a sorta newbie, or maybe something in the middle, I hope I'm right hehe), it's only a few that actually make the general forums less interesting IMO (though I haven't visited the gen-forum much lately so I wouldn't know).

[Matt Brown]

okay, here's my take.


I am overall in favor of a oldbie forum. I was actually just part of a forum that split into oldbies+select few and everyone else forums...and it actually worked out quite well....for a while.
This forum split without telling anybody, and the oldies, (and a handpicked few, folks who hadnt been around much but the oldies liked.) just started another forum. they didnt talk about it. newbies didnt read it. It was great...until the forum got too crowded due to por selection procedures, and I left b/c it was stupid again.
after looking at the lessions I've learned from that, here's what I think we need to do to make it work.


1. Allow everybody to at least read the posts. This shows people the kind of conduct needed to come to such a place.

2. Have a clear-cut set of rules needed to join. Time requirments, game making criteria, etc. whatever they oldies think of. I personally think that active members of ezboard is a good way to start, then add on from there.

I'll edit more when I think of more.

I beg of CJ to not close the gen gen forum. I live in an area where there are very few kids my age that share interests with me. I have nowhere else to go to discuss politics, or learn about afairs from the european standpoints...from actual europeans. I learn a lot from talking with some of the oldies on this board, people who are often adults, and are much more educated then me. if we split, then at least keep the forum, and I pray, that prehaps the oldbies might come and vist once and again.


I hope that didnt sound stupid. I just got back from north carolina, and just wrote off the top of my head.

[makri]

I think many of the so called "oldbies" need to take a serious look into the ezboard topics and think if something has really changed. I don't think so. Segregating posters is a punch in the nuts of the community (including "oldbies") and the engine. Everyone loses.

If you really must to make a fair oldbie forum, let the poster decide whether they belong there or not. Put a very low post restriction there to weed out first time posters who don't know their way around the forums yet.

It doesn't really matter to what you base the discrimination; age, post count, demos finished, games finished, join date, whether they're been to mittens or not - most newbie posts are just as mature as most by those who would have the "elite" status.

[taryuu]

i think it's kinda funny that the supposed "elite oldies" have forgotten how inane the conversation used to get on ezboards.  what are you pissed off now that it's not you making an ass out of yourself?

if you want to have your own forum, then go make one!! you can have one up in running in less than half an hour!  and then you can have complete control over who posts, when they post it, what they post about.  

is it just me who figured this out?

[Las Naranjas]

Because the mere thought of this happening changed the current forums for the better removing any need for aforesaid forum.

[taryuu]

here's hoping

[magintz]

I think it would be a very good idea, but instead of "stopping" people from accessing the elite room it should be made avaliable to be seen by anyone, but can only be edited and used by the chosen few.

I'm not sure how it would be organised, whether it would be the eldest community members (people who've been on the forums and AGS the longest) or people who have contributed a lot?

"I have been around for a while now, I think it's just over 2 years now, but I havn't really contributed that much, only Jingle Bells and a crappy demo , whcih most n00bs post withing a month of joining, but I feel I am still a helpful member of the community, as I post every now and then, and give words of wisdom and encorougement on IRC."

I think there are quite a few people like me that could possibly not deserve it, so the organisation system would need to be checked, edited, double checked, confirmed etc... to make it a fair case for entry.

[Pessi]

Concluding by this thread, I'm thinking one of the problems we're having is that people aren't reading the thread completely. There's no chance for discussion when it's just several monologues in the thread.

Come on, interact! That's what makes forums great. It's no fun just stating your opinion after reading the original post and then disappearing. You should read what others say and disagree or agree with that. Otherwise you won't know whether to learn or teach.

I must add, there are people who also tend to go too much for the dialogue, posting one sentence each time.

And once again I'm back at the main issue: why do we have to stress ourselves out by teaching how to use the forums properly? Probably half of everyone's posts deals with this. And I think that is one of the issues why the oldbies want to have their own forum - there wasn't need for moderating or telling what people should post and what not to.

Makri and Taryy: I don't think the threads at Ezboard's forum were 'mature' either. They used to be though, in the beginning. When people just started to know each other better. And it wasn't THAT bad in the end either, but it's not something I'd call mature. No one has pointed out yet, (I think) that there was this very same discussion in the Ezboard's forums as well. And in fact, it was the immature way of discussion that got me resigning from the moderator's place at about the same time. If people can't chat with each other without constant moderating, I don't know if the discussions are worth it then.

SO PLEASE, DON'T POST ANY MORE SUGGESTIONS ON HOW TO PICK THE MEMBERS FOR THE NEW FORUM. At least read the whole thread first so you can comment on other people's suggestions, for there are many. And there any many that have been suggested more than once!

I don't mean to sound harsh with this post. I hope I'm not attacking anyone or anything, because it's the last thing I want.

[makri]

Well, I admit that I hopped on the AGS train in the end days of Ezboard and didn't read everything posted so far... This whole issue just reminds me of some old people who go around preaching how youth is horrible these days and how things were way better in the olden days when nothing really has changed.

[taryuu]

i remember that day that  you resgined pessi.  tho i seem to recall it was over something a little more graphic than communism.  that was captain mostly wasn't it?  do you have the thread handy?

at any rate i recall sticking up for mostly just like i stuck up for yufster.  don't know why tho now that i look back on it.  

anyway i'd say back in the ezboard days there used to be a lot more tolerence for stupid posts.  than when we switched it seemed we would go through these cycles of people talking about the forum rules, and uselss posts. that was more of a bandwidth thing back then, and this time it seems to be more of a pissing people off thing.  this was all supposed to be solved by that forum quiz you had to take before you got your membership.  

no one brought that up either.  

actaully, while i was looking thru the old posts, i found this

http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=3167;start=0

neat eh?

feel free to comment and interact (that one's for you pessi

[remixor]

There's no way for me not to seem biased, since I'm obviously a newb, but I"m pretty opposed to this proposition.  I've seen this type of nostalgic/elitist/whatever behaviour in countless other internet communities (hell, what am I talking about?  real life communities even more so), and I think it's a total fallacy.  I can't see any real benefit to creating a forum entirely for a select few.  I've read this whole thread but it still seems kind of pointless to me.  Goldmund says the pros are 'obvious' and with all due respect, even taking into account my newbie perspective, I don't see them as all that obvious.  Maybe the oldbies would have more in common, maybe they can relate to the "good old days" better, but I just don't see how this necessitates a new private forum.  All it would do is cause those people to spend less times on the regular forums, thus decreasing their valuable input.  I know that there's no technical reason people couldn't keep posting here just as often, but look at it this way.  The people who spend much time on the oldbie forum are going to be the ones who are most affected by the nostalgia syndrome.  Since they obviously perceive the other oldbies as being more worthwhile of their time (why else would they support and peruse such a forum?), they will see lesser value in posting for the newbs.

Anyway, the whole idea just seems ludicrous and rather silly to me.

[Dmitri]

* Dmitri hangs head in shame

I hate my old posts... I honestly do...

I don't know what defines a newb. A person who takes the community too seriously I guess.

I mean think about it, the people who take this place to heart. Those who truly care about others opinions, those who want to be cool, to be liked. Don't they want to start threads? Silly threads to seem cool? Don't they throw in one or two lines, or say "That's cool" in all the art threads?

I don't know if I take this place seriously. If I didn't care AT ALL I wouldn't come here once or twice a day to see how everyone's been doing. I care about what people think of me. But I'm not necessarily here for lifelong friends or to be liked anymore. On the same note I don't want everyone to hate me.

It's a theory...

[Andail]

I think the discussions is starting to move in circles now. My last comments would be:

1. Yes, there were recently problems with people posting too much and not very thoughtful. There were problems with old members being passive and losing interest because of this. Whatever Taryuu and Makri have to say about the quality of posts during the old days, this fact remains.

2. Probably everything that needed to be said has been said. Therefore I propose that we go back to normal and stop dwelling on this. It's CJ:s decision in the end.
No more martyrs departing, no more whining, and open season on DG has ended.

[DGMacphee]

No way -- That DG is an oldbie retard!!!

Oh wait...

That's me...

[Robert Eric]

I agree