YE GRANDE ELITIST OLD GUARD FORUM?? pros and cons

[Trapezoid]

But this forum DOES revolve around games and status. Status comes from producing or contributing to good games. Why do you think Chrille and Phil Reed and Roy Lazarovich are legends around here? It's certainly not because they post here every day.

It's more that their games that are legendary. Nobody really knows what they're all about (except for Phil, who conveys his personality pretty well in his games and occasional posts.) But I'm better friends with people like Snake, Pesty, Squinky, Timosity, LGM, etc, and I like them for who they are, not whether or not their games are finished. That's just how it works out for me.
I love the King's Quest remakes, but I don't even know who Tierra ARE, and therefore I respect their games, not them. And I can't remember what games you, Ben, are attached to, but it doesn't matter, you're a familliar face and you're generally helpful.
We've never had to think about why we respect one another before. Yes, there may be more newbies nowadays, but it's all relative. And as far as games go, this year is the most promising so far! I really can't think of how this community is suffering.

[Ben]

Snake, LGM, and the others you mention have contributed a lot, or are working on some really promising games.. But you're right in many ways that a lot of oldies may not want to admit. The reason the people we really like and care about don't post here anymore is because they're busy working on something. The forums take a backseat to the games. And that's the way it should be, even if we're not always happy with it.

And I can't remember what games you, Ben, are attached to

Well, I've attached myself like a suckerfish to a few games (Pleurghburg and some other Gaspop projects), but I've been too lazy to finish anything of my own except for the legend known as RAYMONDS KEYS...

..

I guess I need to take longer breaks from this place  

[Pessi]

This reminds me of the situation I had with my real life friends. When one of my friends first discovered IRC and I got an internet connection, we made this channel and called some of our friends that also had a connection to join in. IRC does beat talking on the phone cause it's cheaper and we could all talk at the same time. We see each other often but this way we could contact each other really easily.

Anyway, after a while there was more and more people on the channel and I realized that I didn't even know all of them. I had never seen them and they weren't talking about the things we're interested in. In fact, it was BORING, when it used to be everything but. So... we decided with my closest friends that we'd make our own little channel, that no 'outsider' could join. And so we did.

In my opinion, it has worked really well. It's sometimes a bit quiet but when we're all there we can talk about the things we want without some guys we don't even know, disturbing the converstation just with their presence.

I don't know if that goes for this situation as it is, but it reminds it very much, I think. Hopefully it also shows where I stand on this issue.

There's one negative thing that I can think of, though. I really don't like those guys that are on the old channel. The new guys that is. I actually never even visit the channel because I'm having a lot better time in the new one. And I suppose that would be kind of a bad thing here.

PS. Don't get me wrong, I don't use IRC all the time. In fact, I use it very rarely nowadays. I try to stay off the computer as much as possible as it kind of makes one lazy in "real life". And contrary to what one would think, it makes me work on computer art, for example, much more effectively. Not that it could've been seen lately though.

[Barcik]

I see to alternatives for this to work.

1) Let's call this 'eltitist forum' a name that will make us not feel as evil: On many boards there there is a special forum for people who contributed more to the community. They are only able to talk in the forum if they qualify, according to the requirements. This way, it's not exactly elitism in the manner of "I like you better, you join", but a more rules-based one.
2) I prefer this one. Make this board just as you described it, but not as a part of the AGS forums. Thus, no discrimination is created in the AGS community itself, as it is just a nice little bunch of friends to whom 'that other forum' belongs.

[Trapezoid]

I still think it's a little selfish. I still think the problem has more to do with the oldies' perception of the newbies than the actual newbies...

[Barcik]

What's wrong with a selfish solution?

[Dmitri]

I can't see why the title of the thread is offensive.
True, passwords suck, putting fences sucks et al... ah, I'm torn, I already said this.
There are many old members and if I tried to IM them all with this proposal, I would spend all day on this - thus, I posted it here.

I didn't say it was offensive, I said pretty much what Barcik said. It could have a better name... I dunno, like "password AGS forum"

Your point about old members being numerous is also irrelevant. Because we'll be arguing about this for weeks on end.

And another point I tried to make is that people NEED NOT KNOW that these forums exist until they are invited... although there were a couple valid points later on as to why this would be a bad idea. The fact that a newbie would know all the newbies and would suddenly be invited to this new password forum and not know anybody.

[Barcik]

Well, in theory at least, it is not as if the users of this forum will never use the regular ones.

[Pumaman]

I've just come to this forum for the first time in a few days and been confronted by this whole mess.

I have to admit, I've also felt a bit distanced from this community lately, but not really been able to work out why. But Rode's post in the other thread really struck a chord:

What do I think about Yufster, Jimi (Don't mean to single anyone out in particular, just the first names that came to me) and the other younger members? Well, I'm 24 years old. I can't really relate to them. The internet was a very different place when I was in my mid teens. I don't know what it's like to bring teenage angst to the digital masses for advice. All I had was black t-shirts and loud music. When I read posts about 12 year olds being madly in love I don't know what to say.

It's like in real life - some people you get on with, some people you don't, usually due to clashing personalities.

It's nobody's fault in particular, it just happens when you have large groups.

With AGS, we were really lucky with the group of people we had to start with. We were all similar in age and interests.

But since the community expanded, there is a much wider range of different people here. Which is a good thing in a way, but a bad thing in other ways.

I'd be in favour of an alternate Gen Gen forum, for 'oldies' - simply because it should keep everyone happy. Most of these people hardly post on this forum any more anyway, so it's not going to divert people away. What it would do is create a different environment for people who want less hectic discussion to go to.

The other alternative that I am seriously considering is m0ds' suggestion of shutting down this gen gen forum. Probably due to the size of the community, it has almost become unmanagable lately and something had to give - and it just has.

[Robert Eric]

If those are the only two options, I'd vote for the first.  The newbies could speak freely in an envirenment which contains people who discuss the same things they want to, and in the same way they do.  The oldies can talk in their own forum and not have to give a damn about the newbies or the Gen-Gen...except for the moderators.

[undergroundling]

As a newbie, I think it would be a little unfair to exclude people from this "oldies" forum.  Personally, I would rather talk with a lot of the oldies on here than most of the newbies, as I find threads with the oldies to generally be more entertaining and insightful.  How would one determine who is to be allowed to post on this oldie forum?  If it comes to this, I'm in favor of simply shutting down Gen Gen and leaving idle chat to IRC.

[misterx]

Hmm I have learnt so much from other people here would hate to see us newbies excluded from a forum.

But maybe if would could still read the posts, but not post that would work. If we had a question on a topic, we could always PM the person.

That way, the forum doesnt get flooded, but the newbies arent left out in the cold.

I have been impressed with these forums, even though i have only been here a week, i hope things manage to get sorted.

[MillsJROSS]

Just because there might be an exclusive board, though, doesn't mean oldies can't partake in the boards for the general masses. And anyway, your responses, misterx and undergroundling, show another reason this could be useful. The oldie forums can be seen as a goal, so that those who wish to enjoy the company of the elite (I'm not going to lie, it's elitism, no way around it), will respect the rules and if posts are well thought out and such, may very well be able to go to those forums too.

I'm for this idea.

-MillsJROSS

[Las Naranjas]

In essence "Just because I'm better than you, doesn't mean I can't talk to you"

[RickJ]

The main purpose of the gen-gen forum is to keep all the crap out of the other forums.    A secondary purpose, I suppose, is  that a discussion or heated debate about polictics this or social issue that, would perhaps provide inspiration for an AGS project.  

Being the old fart I am, I haven't found much of interest for me in the gen-gen forum, so I just don't waste much time there.    I check in once in a while, when I am bored and want to waste some time.   It's not surprising to me that some of you have matured over the years and now find the gen-gen fare less than fulfilling and  somewhat childish.  Just do what I do, spend your time on more productive things.

The only problem I have with the gen-gen forum is that some individuals tend to engage in vicious personal attacks upon those who disagree with their opinions.  I think this practice is counter productive and does nothing for the advancement of AGS or adventure gaming.  

If some people want a place to go where they can agree with each other by all means setup your own forum and let CJ and the rest us be.  

Cheers

[juncmodule]

I must admit, I am very much in favor of shutting down the gen-gen forum. It tends to spill over into other forums which just ticks me off. I was replying to a thread in AGS Chit chat (started by Yufster) about ripping sprites and Undergroundling pops in and says, "I found you Yufster" and does not contribute a sprite, bandwidth, web space, just clogs up a useful thread. I don't always read threads in the gen-gen forum and even if I do, I don't want to play the "find so in so" game so why should it be forced on me. I'm sorry but, I don't think the newbies should have a say in this (which would include me and make my post pointless I suppose :) I think a new "general"-type forum with extremely strict moderators, rules, and joining criteria is an excellent idea. I am also in favor of shutting down the gen-gen forum. I believe that the debate between these two things is seperate though. Regardless of what we do with gen-gen, I believe a new "gen-type" forum needs to be created.

EDIT: Oh, yeah. One more thing. Let's say I don't like (insert oldie name here). I think he's a jerk that posts sexist crap and argues with people all the time. Do I want (insert oldie name here) to go away? NO. (insert oldie name here) is a major oldie who I respect because he is just that. I believe this "gen-type" forum should be established to help keep those people and bring back the few that left, if they can be brought back. If you are a newbie and disagree with that...well, that's why you are a newbie now isn't it. Not knowing where to put your respect is probably the biggest newbie problem.

later,
-junc

[Timosity]

I don't think it would be a good idea to shut down the gen gen.

But I know it gets abused every now and then, usually round holiday periods, after exams etc, which is exactly what happened 6 months ago in Jan. It just seems to happen.

Also with the fact of more and more quality games released these days, more people know about it, eg. JAPNCA, NIAR, TUM, Adventures of Fatman, Apprentice and Ignac coming soon (just to name a few, There's also plenty of new games coming soon too)

All that will happen is people will slowly change the Chit Chat forum into a gen gen.

Start a oldies forum if you like, who's gonna know? But It will either work or just be a bit boring for the oldies, plus I think alot of them that post very occasionally, like the audience, and the power they have, in an oldies forum they are all equal, and won't be able to be as witty casue everyone will just get all the in jokes. (but then again, at least more people will get them)
Also they may be a bit more relaxed

Just do what you think is right, maybe even a posting limit in the gen gen per day, just so people have to think more carefully before they post.

enough said, CJ is really the only one that can make the decision, as it's his bandwidth and has been around the longest, and his decision will be more respected than anyone elses.

soon SCIVGA will be out, which will probably be the major competition, maybe more people will be attracted there and release the load here abit.
Time will only tell.

[undergroundling]

Junc - In reference to me "popping in" to that thread on T&C, I realize that was OT and inappropriate for that subject, but if you'll look at the vast majority of my posts, most of them are either C+C, comments/criticisms on other AGSers games, or responses (like this one) to substantial threads in the Gen Gen forums.  If you're going to use me as an example of the Gen Gen forum "spilling over," I would appreciate it if you would consider my other post content and not this one stand-alone incident.

Also, in response to Mills about people striving to be allowed to the elite forum, I think that will just make the board atmosphere even worse than it is now.  It will degrade into a competition to see who can get onto the oldies board.  Another likely effect would be a lot of newbies leaving if they couldn't get the help/feedback they need from the oldies.  Now, granted some newbies leaving wouldn't be all that bad, but if there is a mass exodus of newbies and only a handful of people left on these boards, these boards will soon die out leaving just the oldie board.  Unless of course, this is your masterplan.

[Czar]

WEll, a lot has been said, and i dont want to repeat it, except for this. The newbies could have a chance to lurk on those forums, but not post, so in a way they could meet the personality of a oldie, and still not interfere(sp) in their discussion...
So all in all, i think there should be a poll, in which only the oldies could vote....in a way...

[Hobbes]

There's only one thing I would hate to see:

The gen-gen forum flooded by 12-13 year old youngsters and all the older members in another forum.

I'm 21. True, it's actually quite young. Although I feel older, always have, always will. All my friends in real life are older, I just don't relate very well to people who are younger than me. But, considering my status in the AGS community, I'm a newbie. I have yet to contribute a game, and only rarely partake in the discussions.

However, I read the posts of the "oldies" with interest. I can't begin to describe how it makes me feel when one of the oldies replies to what I write. It's far more important to me than having newbies respond.

Now, I would hate to lose these rare moments or see a lot of the people I respect vanish from these forums. True, they can still post here... but if they have a place of their own which is guaranteed to have discussions of interest, why come back here?

True, if that is what they want to do, I can't blame them. If I were an oldie, I'd probably want the same.

The mixed feelings this leaves me with, automatically leads me to the second option: Shut down the gen-gen forum. It's a bandwith eating monster and doesn't really contribute to the community.

As far as I can see it, that would be the only viable solution.