Why I'm not using AGS

[cos777]

I decided to give AGS a try after finding out that King's Quest remakes were made with it but was quickly disappointed with the engine. For example, the "Make My Game" option was hilarious except the "Use unnecessarily high game resolution and color depth" and "do not create a plot but wow the player with graphics instead". That sounds too much like "3dfx" just before they went bankrupt. They said that no one would need more than 16-bit color depth in games, and, boy, were they wrong! 32-bit color, for example, would eliminate a lot of "graininess" in the background images, even compared to optimized and dithered 16-bit ones. Sorry, but mixing lame excuses in the midst of funny jokes isn't going to make the lame excuses funny. I've seen the same attitude on AGS forums as well.

The current highest 800x600 resolution isn't "unnecessarily high" if your backgrounds are better than the five-minute drawn ones that a lot of amateurish AGS games use. "Runaway", "Journey to the Center of the Earth", and "Unnamed Project Joe" make a good use of 1024x768 resolution, which eliminates a lot of jaggies on the characters and objects. It's not a bad thing at all. And if the concern is that many "newbies" will want to use highest resolution and color depth for mediocre graphics, you can't possibly force them not to make "bad" games that way. It's not like anyone is forcing you to play bad games anyway. The whole bitterness and hate towards 32-bit color and high resolutions just sounds too much like an excuse for the fact that the engine is simply too slow and unoptimized to run at a decent speed at those settings, which would be understandable if not for constant immature whining about how great looking graphics and detail somehow equal a bad plot and bad game. I believe in a balance where opportunity exists for making graphics AND plot equally good.

Also, while the engine is vritually free for commercial use (which seems to be its main attraction), it seems the reality is quite different. For example, Erpy on Tierra forums said that he couldn't imagine Chris Jones not getting a share if Tierra made commercial games with AGS. Umm, why couldn't he "imagine" that?  : Isn't it one of the main AGS advantages? According to him, not giving a share somehow implies being ungrateful, even though one is not obligated to do so. I can just see that if someone makes fairly good money with AGS and doesn't give its author any "share", the whole AGS community will bitch and whine about how "uncool" that person is. So, in the end, the whole "I don't want to charge money for it because I don't want to feel obligated to update it unless when I feel like it" becomes another excuse. And when the "free for commercial use" appeal is gone, one might as well go with something better and more advanced, such as "Wintermute".

So, this all helped me make a decision not to use AGS. I'm sorry if this sounds like a flame but I needed to vent a bit. I hope the AGS author and community attitude changes in the future (at least towards high resolutions and color depth), so I may reconsider it. But until then, no.

Also, I realize that this thread may not be the most appropriate to post this in but I didn't feel like registering just to post a new topic when I didn't plan on being here or checking the replies anyway. So, if it gets deleted, I won't even know about it.

Thanks.


[edit: change thread title after split topic]

[Scummbuddy]

I think your jokes are funny, CJ...

I really don't see how you saw Erpy as being ungrateful.. he wants to give CJ money, which, to me, is the exact oppositte.

You played Tierra's game, correct, and you were happy with those graphics, which is what AGS handles.
No one bitches and complains, because its not asked whether or not CJ is getting money, really, and its none of our buisness if he is getting money or not.

the whole "I don't want to charge money for it because I don't want to feel obligated to update it unless when I feel like it" becomes another excuse.

i like this excuse too.  seeing that CJ updates AGS seemingly twice a month and hardly seems to go on vacations.  We all here at AGS owe him quite a lot, which he is still the nicest guy and doesnt ask for anything in return.

What a guy.... maybe he is Jesus Chris...


oh, and please dont come here and bitch about how lame graphics-wise some of our games can be.  we love our members and their range of abilites, especially when someone attacks us as a group, and you could find us to be quite angry.  youd find we are very accepting of many people, but this kind of impression would probably lead us to ask you not to come back, if you hadnt already said you were leaving.

[miguel]

People like Cos777 get confused if somebody puts hard work on something and offers it, and doesn't ask for money back.
What he doesn't know is that if/when any AGS members really makes some good money out of a game he/she will gladly (hopefully) want to share with CJ part of that money.
And I sincerely hope that someday AGS will become a steady and powerfull engine and I will be one to buy it.
Everytime money gets in the way of people thinking it gets them confused.
Cos777: if you don't like it, great!

[Adamski]

I believe in a balance where opportunity exists for making graphics AND plot equally good.

Oh yes, we all do, however good graphics are not dependent on bit depth or resolution but obviously on the skills of the artist in question.

[MrColossal]

um... cos, i hope you're still reading cause i have some questions

who here is ranting and raving against high resolution?

http://www.agsforums.com/yabb/index.php?board=2;action=display;threadid=9122

this is the most recent post i can remember and no one is calling Ibex an asshole for suggesting 32 bit colour and the majority of people are agreeing with him. so i'm confused, who's against higher resolutions? and if you mean the few people who think adventure games need to be 320x200 and in 256 colour in order to be an adventure game then i have to point out that there are hundreds of members here at AGS and not all of them voice their opinion, if you have a problem with what 2 or 3 people have said than you're unfairly judging the entire community. [that and early AGI games weren't in that resoltion]

email Micheal Doak "Ionias" and ask him if he had any problem selling Fatman Adventures and if he secretly sent money to CJ. Fatman Adventures sold for 15 or so dollars and he did pretty well, CJ is still his friend and we all like Ionias very much! I can't recall one person yelling at him for selling his game and if they did it was just one person. Who cares?

And that quote from Erpy is the world according to Erpy, why not ask him? I don't understand why you need to bring it up with the AGS community when it isn't a universal feeling. I'm making a commercial game and I don't feel sorry for CJ cause he's a big boy and can make his own decisions and he's decided not to make any money off AGS.

Sorry CJ, again this shouldn't be continued in this thread but i had something that i needed to say and there's no saying Cos will be back anyway, i guess split the topic and move it to AGS gen?

eric

[Pumaman]

For example, the "Make My Game" option was hilarious except the "Use unnecessarily high game resolution and color depth" and "do not create a plot but wow the player with graphics instead". That sounds too much like "3dfx" just before they went bankrupt.

I think you're misinterpreting the joke there - we're not saying that everybody should use 320x200x256; rather, the key word is unnecessarily high - ie. drawing simple graphics in MS Paint and then using 32-bit colour, whereas they would look the same in 256-colour.

Nobody is arguing that graphics are not an integral part of making a high quality adventure game. However, most people here do it as a hobby in their spare time, and don't have the skills to draw; and equally, there have been examples of games with superb graphics but a very lacking story. Ideally you need both, but most people here would agree that if it's only one or the other, then story is more important.

Sorry CJ, again this shouldn't be continued in this thread but i had something that i needed to say and there's no saying Cos will be back anyway, i guess split the topic and move it to AGS gen?

I've split the topic but left it in the Tech forum, so that if "cos777" decides to return to see what we said in reply (which I'm sure he will), he won't think his post was deleted.

[Spyros]

Why I'm not using AGS

Does anyone care?

[scotch]

You've misinterpreted the communities feeling about 32 bit colour and higher resolutions, and CJ's too.. very few members think higher resolutions and colour depths would make worse games and we aren't bitter that the engine would be slow at high resolutions (some people prefer software based graphics for compatability, rather than hardware accelerated ones such as wintermute that don't work on my older PC), the reason we don't have a mssive demand for them is that most members aren't great artists so that they aren't really bothered by the current limits and some are very accomplished low res artists.  You come across as irritated that AGS doesn't do what you want it to do, why expect it to be that way?  If wintermute is the engine that you need to realise your project then use it, but there's no reason to come here ranting about the limitations of AGS.  It was designed to make low res, old style adventures, higher resolutions have been added because people have asked for them, 32 bit colour is an intended feature for version 2.6, perhaps you didn't read that.  1024x768 is a possibility, although if I ever make a game in that res (and I intend to) I'll probably do it in something else.

The reason you've chosen not to use AGS is sensible, it's not what you're looking for.  This thread, however, isn't.

Good luck with wintermute, I looked in to it for a while for my games, unfortunately it isn't what I needed.  I'll AGS until they add real 3d character support.. maybe I should go and post that on their forums?

[jannar85]

I already know I don't have the same thoughts as you. A background can be fantastic in 640*400/80. Just look at most of the commercially developed adventure games released. Or look at our game, Roger Foodbelly, the screenie:

http://justadventure.com/Upcoming_Releases/RogerFoodbelly/introforest.jpg

[scotch]

I don't think he's disputing 640x480 or 256 colour can look good, he's probably played CMI, just that he thinks people are closed minded about 1024+
I think 800x600 is enough for very high quality full screen graphics on most monitors, after that better antialiasing and other effects make more of a difference to me, I can see a small improvement between 800x600 and 1024x768 though...


Oh wait, it was a just shameless plug for RF, sorry.

[Snake]

Shouldn't this thread be in the Who Gives a Fuck? forum?

Cos, your decision to use a different adventure game engine other than AGS is perfectly fine, but to actually go to the AGS forums and explain why you chose not to use it is a little obsurd me thinks.


--Snake

[Bluke4x4]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been deleted yet.

[Esseb]

Why would it be deleted?

[Bluke4x4]

Basically because no one cares why someone isn't using something.

It's like posting in a sushi forum a post that says sushi sucks. If I said I wasn't using AGS, I'd just say it. Not go on about bad graphics in games and stuff like that.

But then again, maybe someone might agree. But I wouldn't agree with Cos.

[auhsor]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been deleted yet.

Well it was split from the beta thread. I think its good that someone voices their opinion on why they won't use AGS, provided they give reasons. This allows those problems to be identified and worked on. I think cos just misinterpteted some stuff here.
I wonder if he will be back to check this thread...

[TheYak]

Isn't it just as likely that this Cos person is one of many who've dropped by the forums briefly to plug one of the other game-scripting engines?  Offhand, I can think of at least 6 occasions when somebody dropped by and tried to proclaim the glory of another system.  Since Cos claims he won't be back, I don't see any sense in disputing his statements since virtually nobody in this community agrees with him.

[cheddar]

I decided to give AGS a try after finding out that King's Quest remakes were made with it but was quickly disappointed with the engine. For example, the "Make My Game" option was hilarious except the "Use unnecessarily high game resolution and color depth" and "do not create a plot but wow the player with graphics instead". That sounds too much like "3dfx" just before they went bankrupt. They said that no one would need more than 16-bit color depth in games, and, boy, were they wrong! 32-bit color, for example, would eliminate a lot of "graininess" in the background images, even compared to optimized and dithered 16-bit ones. Sorry, but mixing lame excuses in the midst of funny jokes isn't going to make the lame excuses funny. I've seen the same attitude on AGS forums as well.

Well, gee. I am SO sorry that this easy-to-use totally FREE engine made by a very generous guy during his FREE time, with FREE technical support isn't up to your satisfaction. : Comparing it to 3dfx?   WAAAAHAHAHAHA! This engine has been around for three years and didn't even support high-color graphics until fairly recently. It still has strong support for this community of "amatures". I doubt it's going to die out anytime soon. My biggest gripe with the engine was that the IDE used to be in DOS and hard to use, but now it's been ported to Windows and had plug-in support I'm 100% happy with this engine. If you want to bitch about features and act like you can do better than Chris has, then shut your mouth, lock yourself in a basement and don't come out till you produce something. Then we'll listen.

The King's Quest remakes are proof that good commerical quality games can be made with this engine. But that's besides the point. This engine is FREE so that us AMATURES with our "AMATURE" backgrounds can make games in OUR free time that only take a few days to develop. Allowing us to materiealise our own ideas with ease as well as reminesce over the "good ol' days" when point-and-clicks where everywhere.

Since you seem to be a professional yourself, or at least want to develop professionally, go and PURCHASE A PROFESSIONAL engine developed by entire teams of people with ALL OF THEIR TIME DEVOTED to the development of their engines becasue they're making money with each copy they SELL.

So, this all helped me make a decision not to use AGS. I'm sorry if this sounds like a flame but I needed to vent a bit. I hope the AGS author and community attitude changes in the future (at least towards high resolutions and color depth), so I may reconsider it. But until then, no.

LOL, you want us to change our "attitudes" towards high resolutions and color depths. What,, you work for Nvidia or something and are trying to persuade us to purchase more "mordern games" so we buy your new GeForce card?

Ever wanted to make an adventure game? This engine gives you that chance. When I first started using it (over 2 years ago) I actually realised how DIFFICULT it would be to create a COMMERICAL QUALITY product, and I thanked god I hadn't forked out my hard earned cash on a commerical engine just to develop games as a hobby.

My advice to you (if you care to listen): Try out this engine, make a game or two. If you REALLY are that brilliant go and purchase a professional engine and make retail games, but for god sakes - leave us "amatures" in peace.

You say you won't read replies, but I highly doubt that. But if you don't at least Chris can know that I appreciate this engine and think it's great that I have an oppertunity to develop some of my own mini-games.

cheddar

[DGMacphee]

I think cos is right!!!

I think AGS sucks balls!!!

I mean, it's a free engine that supports hi-res and hi-colour graphics, gets updated monthly, has a huge community, made several great games, inspired several awards ceremonies, and aids in making something creative!

NOW THAT TOTALLY SUCKS!!!

And adventure games? -- Who plays them anymore!!

HAHAHAHAHA -- YOU ARE ALL LOSERS!!!

I'M GOING TO SWTICH TO RPGMAKER 2000!!!!

WHEN I FINISH MY 1000000000 HOUR RPG, YOU WILL ALL SUCK MY ANUS WITH A STRAW!!!

[InCreator]

Whee! A challenger!
Dear cos777, you could send your photos and I'm sure AGS amateur community will accept to make some nice games about you. With 800x600 resolution, too. They could be named "Cos vs AGS" or "3D-adventures of Guy who didn't use AGS". With photos as character animations, just like in Access Software games  ...
Maybe CJ will give a hand, too...

btw, CJ, you forgot something --

However, most people here do it as a hobby in their spare time, and don't have the skills to draw; and equally, there have been examples of games with superb graphics but a very lacking story. Ideally you need both, but most people here would agree that if it's only one or the other, then story is more important.

-- most important thing is usually fact that game is finished and not dumped at some point. Then we measure gfx and story.

But seriously, thing about graphics is quite right. MS-Paint drawn backgrounds disappoint me pretty often, especially when story is far too good to see it spoiled with crappy interface. It's just -- well, sometimes I've played some AGS game and thought - whoa! what a story! But graphics -- I would draw this like that and so on... blah-blah. Just feeling sorry that this or another story wasn't my idea (I'm especially weak at stories).

But instead of attacking someone, I'd suggest to organize our possibilities to get better at that, and I'm planning to make some drawing tutorials by my own, too. Organizing means improved resources page, and occasional check for broken links removing them immediately.

[Paper Carnival]

Cos, your decision to use a different adventure game engine other than AGS is perfectly fine, but to actually go to the AGS forums and explain why you chose not to use it is a little obsurd me thinks.

It would be if he didn't say why he doesn't use AGS, but now the thread looks a bit more like constructive critisism.

As for high resolutions and 32-bit color, I don't believe they are really necessary. I mean, I created a background in 800x600 in 32 bit resolution and I scaled it down to 640x480 with a good proggy and guess what... It looks *better* than what it used to be, because it looks anti-aliased. I'm sure that if you created your background in 1024x768 and scaled it down to 800x600 it wouldn't look *that* different...

Also, just like what all those guys said before me, if you are a real artist then you can make a 16-bit background in 640x480 look like it's 32 bit color in a higher resolution.

I think cos is right!!!

I think AGS sucks balls!!!

I mean, it's a free engine that supports hi-res and hi-colour graphics, gets updated monthly, has a huge community, made several great games, inspired several awards ceremonies, and aids in making something creative!

NOW THAT TOTALLY SUCKS!!!

And adventure games? -- Who plays them anymore!!

HAHAHAHAHA -- YOU ARE ALL LOSERS!!!

I'M GOING TO SWTICH TO RPGMAKER 2000!!!!

WHEN I FINISH MY 1000000000 HOUR RPG, YOU WILL ALL SUCK MY ANUS WITH A STRAW!!!

Was that a sarcastic post?