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Show posts MenuQuote from: BarbWire on Mon 25/01/2021 22:21:47Well, it wasn't my intention to make it sound like all older persons only like melodramatic dramas, I'm well aware that there are diverse tastes in all age groups.
Why not? I quite enjoy our exchanges. It helps pass the time
Seriously, though, you have done nothing to me, and I'm not normally an argumentative person.
I am simply saying it is wrong to presume that older people prefer melodramatic dramas. I am no longer in the first flush of youth, myself,
but I like Sci-fi, action packed thrillers and basically any film with a well written script that doesn't contain the F word over and over again.
In my mind this does nothing for the production. I also like hacking and slashing games. A great way to combat stress.
It is nice that you have friends willing to speak up for you. I will leave you alone now, and make no further comments in this thread
Quote from: BarbWire on Mon 25/01/2021 17:55:01I am, and I ask, whatever did I do to you? It just feels like you are trying to start an argument with me even after I said that I wanted to stop arguing in this thread.
It is now becoming a personal attack on me, if you hadn't noticed. I don't need to justify my posts to you ...so I won't.
I'm sure Blondbraid is quite capable of answering me, if she wants to, without you sticking your oar in. Enough said.
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 25/01/2021 14:33:04Well, personally, I've seen plenty of live-action TV with less realistic characters than some of the greatest animated films.
I mean that even if there are many characters, they are all one vehicle - they don't exist in the first place; they are symbols to allow you to travel in your own world of thought.
Which is also why I mentioned that having fleshed-out characters is more realistic a goal in movies/tv shows ^_^ (because then you start with actual people anyway; those playing the roles)
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 25/01/2021 14:17:22Well, from my perspective, if you only tell one type of story, centering on one character, there is a big risk that one's writings become samey, for lack of a better word, and some authors fall into the trap of only writing characters who comes across as self-inserts, but I've always been partial to stories focusing on several different characters, and I'd find it hard to write a compelling protagonist if the side characters around them were static and didn't have enough characterization to leave room for them too to change alongside the protagonist.
OkI certainly don't mean to antagonize (that has a place in writing, not forum posting
).
On my part, I view anything in literature as interlinking relations anyway, so in that sense, there is really only ever one character, and that one character is supposed to be a vehicle to carry the reader to some avenues of thought and/or emotion.
Quote from: Ali on Mon 25/01/2021 13:38:16Well, Lady McBeth isn't a realistic character, however, as Ali put it, she does have her own goals and concerns, she has a distinct personality and you can tell what her motivations are and why she does what she does.Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 25/01/2021 12:45:48
but Lady McBeth isn't there as a fleshed out character; McBeth himself isn't fleshed out either. LMcB serves very specific purposes in the plot, namely to push McBeth to take the place of the king. Later on she becomes mad, but it's not like any specific personality was there to wash out along with the damned spot.
I agree that Shakespeare isn't doing psychological realism - but it hadn't been invented. Moving the story forward and being a rounded character aren't mutually exclusive. Lady MacBeth has her own goals and concerns.
If I can contrast that with a very badly written character: Madison Paige keeps trying to help the protagonist of Heavy Rain even though he seems disturbed and violent and she has every reason to suspect he's a serial killer. She stays in his motel room and bandages his wounds and takes huge risks for him. Why? They just met and he's awful. But the story has only been thought through from the protagonist's perspective.
(I think, later on, it explains explain that she has some journalistic interest. But the game is happy to rely upon the players' assumption that she has simply fallen in love with Sketchy Joe.)
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 25/01/2021 12:18:46Really? From my experience, in books, you have more time and pages to flesh out the characters, and a character doesn't have to be the protagonist to be an interesting and fleshed out character.
It's not hard to understand, it is just (imo) the wrong way to look at literature. Now if we are talking about some movie/tv show, it is more realistic to achieve that without ruining everything. But in literature you simply cannot prioritize autonomy of characters.
It's even relatively rare to see any decent book that has more than two protagonists; the rest are there for plot reasons or juxtaposition.
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 25/01/2021 10:19:17I know, but it's not something I've seen women joke about in such a manner, and most women don't think guys treating them as objects to manipulate is particularly funny, because if you're a woman, a guy lying to you to get your attention is too often a very real concern, not to mention having a guy pretend to be a would-be attacker would be absolutely terrifying to most women, especially considering many people can and do get PTSD from being assaulted, even if the attacker was fought off.
Fwiww, the "paying someone to attack a girl so you could save her" was a joke
QuoteI read about the rift that began in SNCC during Freedom Summer, when during a training video on voter suppression, white workers started giggling at the fat Southern white dude on the screen. To them, he was a stereotypical representation of a laughable and ridiculous Southern character. To the black workers, he was a very real and very brutal enemy.
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 25/01/2021 10:19:17Again, there is a difference between writing "real life", and treating female character with the same depths as male characters.
Also, as a writer I can tell you that while everyone who writes has his/her own style, you very rarely will see a story that has real-life autonomous characters, and even if you do chances are it won't be a good story. Unlike the real world, a story has a specific plot, climax, planning, deliberate diversion of the reader's attention so they don't see what is going to happen and a load of other literary elements. If you just focus on the characters being their own thing, you are highly unlikely to end up with something worth reading, imo
Quote from: KyriakosCH on Mon 25/01/2021 04:34:06I think I speak for the vast majority of women when I say the "paying another dude to fake-attack the girl so you can play the hero" is less romantic and more of a huge red flag showing the guy is willing to lie and manipulate people if it benefits him, and there are outright predators who stalk women and insist of walking after them even when they've said no under the guise of "following her home to keep her safe", and the fact that so many men still don't get how this might be creepy or immoral or treat it as harmless fun just proves that we need more stories that can help men learn to see women as people like themselves and not prizes to be won or fought over.
Usually in literature you get a majority of characters being there for purposes of juxtaposition to the main character(s). For example, someone may be hideous, to allow for the protagonist to be identified as more decent. It's in essence the same trick that (supposedly) was used to lure a girl, by paying someone to attack her and then defeating him (I mean I never used it, but maybe some people are into capitalist planning).
Furthermore, a book where every character is their own thing, simply does not work. It's why art isn't a mimesis of life, but something inherently more poetic, and also why the more realistically-inclined authors rarely get to become famous or stand the test of time. Dickens>Collins etc.
Quote from: Honza on Mon 25/01/2021 08:43:30Well, I've pondered the Behdel test when writing some of the dialogues for my games, but as I've mentioned before, with the nature of video game storytelling being different from film, it's harder to apply to video games where you play as a male protagonist because it's rare to feature two npc's talk to each other in a part integral to the story in most games, especially if you make a small indie adventure with a limited cast and cutscenes, hence why I think this test I posted would be more relevant to games;
So has anyone here actually used the Bechdel test or any similar rule? What changes did it bring to your story?
Also when you think of a new character, do they come with a fixed gender right away, or do you sometimes change characters' genders later?
Quote from: LimpingFish on Sun 24/01/2021 01:29:55Indeed, it's one thing when movies that only try to be middle-of-the-road entertainment follow trite conventions and fail to represent non-white people, but when films that really try hard to depict an important message against racism and prejudice yet still fail to show people of color as having any lives outside centering white people...Quote from: Blondbraid on Sat 23/01/2021 17:46:08
Indeed, I remember somebody pointing out that several "Oscar-bait" films, despite trying to show racism is wrong, like The Green mile, still failed to show people of color talk to each other about something that wasn't a white person.
Yes, it seems to be a long standing belief in Hollywood than the ongoing struggles of black people are only palatable to general audiences when filtered through a white prism (eg. The Help, Hidden Figures, Green Book, etc).
Quote from: Ali on Sat 23/01/2021 15:29:57Indeed, I remember somebody pointing out that several "Oscar-bait" films, despite trying to show racism is wrong, like The Green mile, still failed to show people of color talk to each other about something that wasn't a white person.
Or in Hollywood, two non-Americans speaking about something that doesn't involve Americans. It draws attention to the way even self-consciously progressive shows like Star Trek implicitly place certain people at the centre of the universe.
Quote from: Ali on Fri 22/01/2021 23:24:25Indeed, I thought this thread was perfectly decent until creepy evo-psych crap and alt-right rhetoric painting sexism as biological was brought up.
I also think it would be nice if we could get along and have an interesting conversation about the Bechdel test. From my point of view, what's made that difficult is people who seem to be uncomfortable with media criticism in general, or otherwise determined to minimise sexism.
Quote from: WHAM on Fri 22/01/2021 11:56:59I have spent several paragraphs in my replies for days now explaining why your claims are sexist, as have several other forum members,
Ah, yes, I see the name calling is on the menu once more.
I have no idea why you would think I am sexist, so I'll just have to deduce it's some sort of defensive mechanism on your part.
Quote from: Khris on Fri 22/01/2021 08:31:32Indeed, I'm sick and tired of men who think they get to have it both ways. If you spout a bunch of stereotypes masked as "science" claiming men are not only naturally built for strength and protecting women, but also disposable and mostly OK with giving up their lives to protect women, and berate modern society for allowing men to grow flabby and weak, you can't be surprised when these stereotypes backfire on men and male victims of female violence get laughed at and treated as a ridiculous role-reversal.
Where's the injustice that has formed here? Doesn't biology dictate that the man is always the abuser, since he's stronger and more combat ready than the feee-male?
Now if only we had a movement to point out that biology doesn't say that and you should rethink all your naive assumptions about topics you know nothing about.
This has been pointed out to online anti-feminists for years now: feminism also helps men.
Like I said, you're making the point for us.
Quote from: WHAM on Thu 21/01/2021 21:51:23Forced marriage may be mostly within immigrant groups in Sweden, but I assure you that domestic abuse, sexual assault, and men murdering their wives are not.
Well, since Sweden is so close to Finland I'd expect the crime rate to be similar: can you find cases where forced marriage takes place among native Swedes outside of fringe religious communities?
Quote from: WHAM on Thu 21/01/2021 21:31:36Because forced marriages and domestic violence was used to impose those things on women.
Did you just unironically compare caring for children and doing housework with having mandatory vasectomies? Or am I reading this wrong?
Quote from: WHAM on Thu 21/01/2021 21:31:36Oh yeah, the classic "only those bad immigrant men are misogynists " shtick.
EDIT: I realised my statement above is a bit too rosy for reality. Even in Finland there are both religious minority group and immigrant communities that have forms of near-enough forced marriages and outdated gender roles that are still strictly enforced. I think religious freedom laws trump gender equality laws in some areas.
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