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Surething, voting 4th 23:59 unless someone asks for extension (you can just pm)

another 24h to go, any one needs more time, let me know.

Anything can look anyhow Im guessing, doenst mean it looks like it since this isnt more then a flat surface we're trying to communicate with - we then need to make new solutions to express thing, like a big castle.
Indicating size is for me easiest done with some reference, something that we reconize - and that door is one of those(I say door and not gate since it got that door"knob").

I think its hard to really put my finger on what you could work on - but I would say composition.
As I see it now I think you have ignored the negative space, which needs to be activated - work with the composition.. I dont there is any unimportant part of a picture, not even the single color background.
Look at the old masters what they did with thier backgrounds(just an example since I like those paintings), it contributes to the whole.
http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/memento6.jpg
Here its clear for me that even though the background isnt containing any objects or interesting - still there is a diagonal going in the background, its contrasting with the opposite diagonals on the table and for that bringing balance to it and also variation. A diagonal is the most dynamic line in a square format, since its the most contrasting to the format. Just to mention one thing, you can more then like find more since its a piece of the whole.

Here is a quick suggestion:


A really rough edit - Its not to show how to blend good colors or how to illustrate a great looking tree, but somehow to show what can be introduced to the composition. I made sure that the background was playing with the other forms on the picture, its divided to two triangels which relates to other forms like the rocks(other triangle'ish shapes) and negative spaces, and the diagonal is contrasting and balancing the other diagonals from the tree and long rock. Also tried to bring in a horizontal to balanse the verticals, but since the format is very horizontal you can have that in mind. Also just a little repetition with more rocks, repetition usualy makes it a little more interesting and makes he eye go around the canvas.
Just some pointers, and you can push them asfar or little as you want to.

There are ofcourse problems with my paintover like: It can still be a bit heavy to the left side, and still a more straightup diagonal(like the tree but flipped) would probably feel nice on the right side somewhere to balance it up(the rightside rock could for an example be reshaped for this). The point of interest (the right rock?) is a bit too close to the border and easily leads out the eye, not to mention that its very heavy and easily unbalance the whole composition if not countered.
EDIT: also try to devide the spaces uneven, make sure one form is more dominant then the other. Like the clouds was going in the middle dividing it in the middle, more intersting since it brings variation. This can be concidered on all forms.(even though I managed to devide the clouds in the middle of the sky) 

All this is ofcourse not knowing what you actually want to communicate, but I think the composition in general is the thing that sticks out.

You can also try to applie this to the castle, where I think the same thing can be improved on. Like drawing it from another perspective to bring in some diagonals to make it more interesting and not so symetrical, symetrical is too obvious and in that way makes it, for me, less interesting.
I hope this helps, and not confuses - its kinda easy, and you dont even need to know this, you will probably start doing this without knowing it after a while anyway, I know I did and its fun to look back and actually see "what" I was doing without knowing it.  

Topic: Castle/stronghold/fort - May it be old/new/modern/future, an entrance to one, a paitningof one, one made out of sant or inside one.

Rules: AGS restrictions

Votes starts 2nd May unless someone asks for more time.
Have fun and good luck!

Idea - nihilyst
Atmosphere - Neil Dnuma
Design - Neil Dnuma
Composition - Neil Dnuma
Functionality - nihilyst
Technique - nihilyst

Yea, I agree with that - It should be based on some kind of scenario, we are afterall basicly working on adventuregames backgrounds where it needs to be practical too to actually use ingame. Or so I would like to think.

What do other people think? Ildu, Jburger, nihilistic, mashpotato, everyone else?(the ones that just came to mind)

I dunno, I do have a preference for self sustaining system improvements rather than initiative based momentary actions. Probably the swede in me.

Same here

I think he's referring to the early stages of a sketch, where I think scribbling is very important. Aside from adding looseness and speed to the sketch, it often triggers many invalueable happy accidents. If you're for instance doing a forest scene, and you start carefully drawing trees etc, you'll often end up with generic boring stuff. By contrast, if you scribble away happily, you often end up with some weird shapes that you start interpreting as some kind of foliage with some weird rock next to it in front of a stream or something; the kind of stuff that's very hard to come up with if you draw careful and intentionally.

Composition is after all about large shapes where the content of these is irrelevant. From a composition perspective, the less expected these shapes are the better, and scribbling is a really good way to achieve this.

Just to clarify, maybe the word doodle was better(or not?), I did not mean that you shoul sacrifice the speed, the loosness or the open mind to opertunities. I just meant that you dont put random stuff down with no intention - the sketch for composition should have the intention to seek out a good composition(and all which that mean). The artist-glasses is on in the proccess. So sketch = exploring, seeking, study - for me.


I think it would be great of more people come with  suggestions on how to get the early stages posted, if there even is an interest for it. I like the idea which you started with be BG-blitz - that it actually become an learning experience - for me, and probably some other, I mainly use it as an exscuse to make something(inspiration) and practice, and probably doesnt take it that serious(which ofcourse is a shame). And many bgblitz seems too short for such a proccess?

@loominous: I do agree on the sketch is probably whats going to hold the peice together in the end and not what you did after the sketch.
I do also think that(which was my intention) you can improve a composition when you got the peices in front of you, aligning forms, grouping, repetition, leading the eye - Not saying it would have been the best choice of sketch - make the best of what you have.

But you are absolutely right about people posting in the later stages, where it is somewhat locked in the possibilities.
I dont know if you have any general suggestion how to make this happen - I have a hard time see people posting thier sketches(not only this forum, most users in forums I seen post in a later stage). And I think you have seen it to, and you are probably the only one here who encouraged it(which is a shame, since it would help alot).
A suggestion that has been up is a Workshop(which my tutorial was meant to be) where everyone makes a background with eachother - posting at every stage. But it would probably mean much time for the "teachers" bringing together. And most important people has to show interest, all our time is equally important and it would be waste if noone was interested. If you have any suggestions Im with you, not just to help but also to grow myself as an artist.

@MrColossal: I think you need to have a clear mind of what you want with the sketch, scribble isnt the same which some might think. As an artist, I think, you are searching for solutions to problems.. The moment you put down a line on the paper the problems comes and you need to take action to it(or so Im thinking). If you know what you're searching for sketching becomes a relief I think(interesting composition, which your tools and knowledge can help with). Although Im willing to agree that people can make good compositions without the knowledge and trust their feeling - But I think it will be harder to pinpoint the problems and search them out to then put in a remedy(fix), which ofcourse can lead to that another problem shows itself. Conclusion, A good sketch and you're halfway done

Im not trying to complicate things for anyone else - but for myself - and just letting the mind go, making you read it, sorry

It can ofcourse be more simple but still asgood or better then how I think - its just my way of thinking.

My psd is one layer, it was max 2 but I often merge them.
I think someone can do much better then me(loominous comes to mind) or digital painting tutorials.
The color choices were not really based on anything but experimented to its result, It was first no complemantary colors but only oranges and reds in it - but after experimenting I liked a little purple in the foreground shadowsides.
Thats whats so great with art, you dont have to follow any rules - it looks good when you think it looks good - realism is just a shell/tool for you to express yourself with(or so I think). Color theory, perspective,anatomy are just tools you can use if it suits you, or you dont use it if its not your cup of tea. But I would think that many artist base on these tools though, you know the tools and then make them your own.. Ill stop babbling since I probably could go on and on writing what I think of art and How I want it to be.
All my opinion and not trying to prove anything.

A reason I brought it up was I have seen it succesfully handled over at CGtalk(im no where close to that skill though).

What some people might missed, which I think I mentioned, was that it was a challange for me too - not to be an ass, but it wasnt only to help but also for me.

While I understand perfectly what you mean loominous, I think that most compositions can be improved - or at least challanged or questioned - Even if the viewpoint isnt the best(which ofcourse can be discussed), since you can resort in principals or tools that stood the test of time. But I also understand, and always think, that there are no rules(just tools) - and all art is personal. What I would try to tell then is things that the poster could have in mind next time.
I wasnt thinking someone posting which I then just change and post - there should be reasons why its changed, I must be able to back it up or otherwise its just random.

Your "vision" for the CL sure sounds good and all, but like you say people sometimes gets really discourages when you bring up alot of theory and pricipels - they realise how much there actually are to it - and very few people are ready to - like you say - totaly remake their work(I dont blame them).

To answer your question in why I dont post my work in the CL(Andails comment to): Yes, it can actually hurt your art IMO.
Looking back at posts I did when I started my art-interest(trackback in the forums) I wounder if I actually helped or just confused/destroyed, I was totaly unexperienced - You can even see my first Background I think.
Its mostly about trust, since you are free to say exacly what you want over the internet(except forum rules) its very easy to hurt someones art if they thrust you. And sometimes I wounder how much time has been spent on those comments?
And sometimes its those oneliners: "I think you should change this", which isnt really interesting, whats interesting is WHY someone think its should be changed, is there any theory behind it, does it really help, do I have my own experience of it?
Not have said its automaticly the case here since Im not that active I wouldnt know.
People I trust c&c my art is mainly my teachers, My AGS-project artist-fellows, and some people I meet in person(and people I know has great experience, like loominous). Its important that its people I can thrust. People just saying it looks good is either unhonest or dont have the knowledge or experience enough, no art is perfect(questionable?) and it can always be questioned. But not all people can handle honest people, and they just think theyre rude,mean or assholes - Im thinking right now: I bet someone will be offended for me just posting this, no?
This isnt directed at any specific person, its just the experience I have of some internet-forums.

@rock_chick
Im not sure what you mean with nasty, but I figure someone were honest and spoke his/her mind and _discussion_ was opened.. If not its probably a missunderstanding - I wouldnt be affraid to post because of a specific person/user.

And Im no writer, so this might all sound fuzzy and unclear(and bad english).

I think all the tutorials already are out on the net, and doing a background isnt much exception then doing anything else since all the artistic components are involved(form, composition,line, color etc).

I wont go in to detail why I dont post much in c&c, but there are reasons _I_ dont.

This was ofcourse just an offer and I think you brought up what I was affraid people would think.
The potential problem with que's would be handled by only an amount of pictures would be allowed each turn, then when Im done with those the next "batch" would be allowed to be posted.

Thanks all for that! - Just wanted to add that I didnt hate it, it wasnt exciting enough(for me) to push further.
For those asking for tutorials and such, have a look over here:
http://www.adventuregamestudio.co.uk/yabb/index.php?topic=34237.0

There has been some people asking for a tutorial on how im making backgrounds, while I have been planing doing one and even started one a year ago or so I still dont really have time to finnish it yet.

But what I want to ask is: Is there any interest for me setting up a topic where people can post thier backgrounds and let me have a go at it, I would try to explain what I did and most important _why_ I did it. People would ofcourse be free to discuss my changes. I would mostly concentrate on the compositional part and not try to alter the makers style. This would be one of my daily compositional-excercises and hopefully others can gain something out of it.
Note though that this isnt homework help where I try to make you a ready background but more of the helping along the way.


So, would this be anything interesting, or is it just ignorant/arogant to think that - since the c&c-forum is exacly the same? Let me know what you think .

Ill post my now since I dont feel like finnishing it up - it wasnt a very exciting piece so Ill leave it like this.
The cropping is because of the changes in the composition.
I like the colors though.

Finnish the background, then we'll see if it matches or not - no need to overdramatize..
You cant really tell if it will match until you lay down all colors - colors are relative like everything else.. Using a neutral background(instead if the white that is) is atleast a good start.

But yea, the boot and the character might not relate much right now IMO.

Shapes can relate in many more ways then just amount of details, but us see a whole background first before making any judgement.

Antialiasing will/should not give white pixels if you draw the character on a seperate layer - if you draw it all merged the line can get a hint of the background color in it(or so I belive, correct me if Im wrong).

About the smudgeniss - paint less smudgy(and dont use smudgetoll:) )! You can try to use harder brushes. Do you use burn- and dodge-tool? If you do I would suggest not unless you make a greyscale painting which I think it works great for.
But harder brushes and bolder strokes would probably eliminate the smudginess

Hope it helps in any way, looks fun I think so far.

I would place a vote for Fyntax, it appeals visually the most to me and practically.
Im I shallow? I always thought Backgroundblitz(with sprite jam and animation) was the visual part of competitions, while there was story and music with thier own. Maybe there should be a gamedesign-comp for that part. You can always correct me if I'm wrong, I wasn't here when the "switch" started.

I hope you dont mind me asking, but what rules?