Messages

[dominate]

Hey Monkey. Guess what.

Best. Post. Ever.

Hey, I wanted to say something about that. I'm good at making fun of people, a skill solely honed on the internet on places far less hospitable than this. I have the inclination, though I reign it in usually because simply this isn't the place for it, and generally it's a waste of time although it may be humourous. The saving grace of how I treated you in my last post, which was completely uncalled for (like this post too) is that there's a honesty under the 'lol, internet!' attitude. I'm giving you a piece of my mind because I was in a similar situation and I wanna help. I'm levelling with you. I call you creepy and a loser and a paedo, but you're just a guy in a set of circumstances and you're trying to make do. The laughs aside, I'm on your cock's side. I want you to be happy. This will not happen many times to you on the internet. Usually people just take advantage of the poor fool who for any reason says on the internet 'hey, this happened to me and it could be taken the wrong way, hehe' like you did.

That being said, we can drop the subject at any time you want.

Actually I have to disagree with Helm on all the anti-religion bits he said. I believe what I believe. Helm's penis isn't going to change that. Oh boy I just set myself up with that one.

Though my penis, formidable as it is, can be very convincing, I am happy you don't exactly drop your beliefs because some random person on the internet wrote you a post about being creepy. You would be a total waste of a human being if you said '...deny... christ? YES I WILL DO AS YOU SAY!' or something. I take your religious beliefs seriously, though I may not share them and you would do best to take my 'satanic lodge' stuff with a boulder of salt because it's mostly metaphor or reactionism or silly fun. I ain't no anti-christian, though I admit to having no faith in any sort of God. Otherwise, my morality isn't much different from most people's. I try to enjoy myself without hurting others. That's what 99% of christians do anyway, so why hold on to divine baggage?

We go to church together.

Christ isn't your saviour, he is a lifeless concept! Make a mockery of him! You didn't come in this world with any other purpose than to excert your biological leanings, to dominate. Let loose the nocturnal beast inside! Blessed are the sick, that lead life of sin! Blessed are we!

Meet her in the church at night. Deflower her on the altar, let the virgin blood be sacrifice to a different lord below!

Seriously, she'll love the new Monkey much more. You can keep the christian facade if you want, that you service a different master (lord priamus from the depths, the goat with the upright member that spits the life-giving seed) needs only be your own secret knowledge. The happiest people are those that overcome this silly concept of 'hypocrisy' and happily engage in totally contradictive behaviours to suit their pleasures, without a second thought given to moral consistency and such. Morality is something we will always fail to uphold to the letter exactly because it is ideal and we're only made of flesh, and falter. Be adaptive. Don't have opinions, only search for solutions. Don't try to fit the world inside your worldview. The strain that the world will place on it will lead you to suffer.

That's not to say you'd be able to discard your morality anyway. You've already been programmed by your parents and peers, you probably feel bad when you hurt people. Congratulations, you're like most of us then. The words don't matter. When you hurt someone, you'll feel bad and want to fix things. You don't have to dress it up in some high and mighty divinely inspired moral code. Just do it. Don't hurt people, and when you do, deal with it like a man.

Otherwise have fun.

We've known each other for about two and a half years.

You've known her since she was ELEVEN you fucking cradle snatcher?! You're going to hell.

And she wouldn't do it with the soccer team. In fact, she's pretty serious about abstinence herself.

I'll tell you this, monkey. When puberty hits you might have dodged it (perhaps you are just abstinent by ugly, not by choice. Post a picture) but she might not deny her hormones. It's pretty easy to discard years of religious indoctorination the moment it just feels totally wrong. Sexual urges are natural. They take over and suddenly your bullshit talk seems quite nonsensical. And you know what? That's probably better. Because a teenager that goes through his teens without any sort of sexual outlet will grow up with severe emotional problems. Do you want that for her? Didn't you say you love her? What if the best thing for her, for her freedom and happiness, is to drop this abstinence business?.

What if the best thing for her is the soccer team. Not you holding hands.

And sorry Helm, but even if she wanted to right now, I'd have to turn her down.

I admire the words, though I don't believe them.

I can't say that I'm completely sure that I could. I've never been in the situation. But it's something I believe in, and it's something I would stand up to fight for. Probably at least as much as Helm fights for his penis.

Again, grade A for idealism, but you're only hurting yourself. If you think hurting yourself for a purpose assigns higher meaning to your life... you're probably correct. However, you will find later on in life that just high meanings are not very fulfilling. Perhaps you'll do on a steady diet of nothing. As I said, perhaps you're really ugly so it's a win/win situation for you.

This girl agreed to go out with me at least once...before Valentine's Day came around. So you can forget the idea that I pressured her into it by buying her all this stuff.

God do you hear yourself? Observe the wording you're using. 'Agreed to go out with me AT LEAST once'. DESPERATE. Desperate, hopeless and creepy. Where's your pride? Where's your desire to be loved, adored to have women worship your penis like they rightly should? (unless you're ugly or something). You won't believe how happy you will feel when you're in a relationship with an equal, who respects you and loves you and you do the same without any sort of cohersion or general haggling. Agreed to go out with you AT LEAST ONCE? No shit, man. Better buy her a house.

My only hope is that by the time her 'AT LEAST ONCE' comes about, you will have been on tens of dates with people who liked you and will not be bothered to go out with her yourself. The penis hurts when punched, Monkey. And every time you haggle for a date with this girl, she's punching you in the penis. Have some penis dignity. If you don't, then once you will have to use it it might no longer stand upright as it youthfully had, so many times ignored by you


wait, I just thought of something. If you're abstinent, does that mean you don't masturbate?

I haven't stated this one yet, because I'm sure it will stir up all kinds of...name calling and whatnot.

I wander what this leads to.

But the fact is...

Hmm hm hm hm.

I lived with this girl for 3 1/2 months last year.

Holy shit! You creepy creepy paedophile. Since she was 9 and a half?! I am telling you, if I were this girls' father, christian or no christian I'd beat you half-dead. How... how the hell? What why are you living together? Are you related? Is she a cousin or something? I'll let you off the hook if she's a cousin since that sort of moral tabboo has no effect on me, but god-damn, it's starting to pile up. You're in a messy spot.

We talk pretty much every day.

WHAT did you talk about with a 9 year old? Pokemon? Barbies? It's so hard for me to not start to dislike you inside. Please explain to me so I can rest easier how this all is justified. Are you... I don't know. How. What? uh

And regardless of whether she does like me more than a friend or not

Okay now I will tell you a hard truth about life: if you're friends with a girl a few years younger than you, and you spend say a few summers with them being friends and shit, before you've had a boner and all so it's all childlike etc, and then you grow up a little and you have your first desires, that girl? You totally love her now. And she totally loves you too. That's how it goes. Spend enough time with an agreeable girl as a child and you will love her. You will want to be with her and she with you. That's how first sexual experiences happen most of the time. Two kids growing from friendship to attraction, well before they realize the implications.

So, in your case? That a 13 year old TOLD YOU SHE SEES YOU AS A FRIEND? That these 4 years of friendship didn't amagalmate into sexual desire? It means you fucking TERRIFY HER. That she will never not in a million years touch you erotically, that you are a problem she tries desperately to keep at arm's length out of oh, a misplaced sense of charity that you misconstrue for 'perhaps one day' affection.

You have FAILED. Your childhood flirting has been for NOTHING, and this cannot change. Pick up your pieces and move on. She doesn't want you. She doesn't want you. She doesn't want you. She doesn't want you. She doesn't want you. She doesn't want you.


I'm sorry.

I know for a fact that I'm one of her best friends.

You know it for a FACT. Words betray your desperation. There are no FACTS when dealing with emotions, jerk.

She's told me so.

A girl once told me I'm the man of her dreams, then went off to get penised by a good friend of mine.

She's shown me as much. She has on multiple occasions chosen to talk to me versus other friends...old boyfriends for whom she still has feelings...etc.

So you're her 'dear diary' perhaps. You'll grow to regret this position soon enough. It's an awful place to be. JUST YOU FUCKIN' WAIT. JUST YOU WAIT. Just wait for when she comes to you all near-crying and shit and she says she needs someone to talk to and you go 'sure honey, I'll be your dear diary' and she "goes oh you're such a good friend, I have nobody else that will listen to me. Yesterday I was with Paul and we were uh... fooling around, and he um, h-he put it... from the back. OH MONKEY IT HURT SO BAD! IT HURT SO BAD, BUT GOOD AT THE SAME TIME, OH I AM SO CONFLICTED!


I think I love Paul."


Just you wait.

two simple facts: 1) you don't know me, 2) you don't know her. Due to point 1, you can't even form a proper hypothesis about what all this obsessive behaviour really amounts to.

Yeah yeah you're right. I'm no behavioural scientist, I am not trying to make a 'proper hypothesis'. I'm just telling you things, seeing what bounces off. You're being a good sport and will probably see things from a different vantage point due to it, though I don't expect anything to stick. It's okay. I am not trying to attack you with any of this.

I like this girl, but it doesn't mean that I would die if she doesn't want to get married to me the day she turns 18. I've already said that if this "crush" never goes anywhere that I'd be happy to just be her friend. And in spite of that, I was called a liar.

That's all-right. You be her friend while Paul the football team captain... assaults her. Enjoy life without merit. God approves.

Due to point 2, you can't get a relevant reading on your Creep-o-meters. All I know is what she's told me. And all that you know is what I've told you. So you think you can judge me based on the fragment of the facts that you have all suddenly become experts on?

Who is these 'all' you're talking to. I'm just here, man. There are no other 'experts'. I am here for you. I will beat up Paul for you. Perhaps. Is he big? He's gotta be big if he's in the football team.

I don't like her because of her age. I like her for who she is. We're not going to be getting involved in ANY type of relationship any time soon, so what difference does it make that I have feelings for her? The absolute earliest we may possibly become involved in even a "bf/gf relationship" is more than two years away. At that point I would be 21 and she would be 17. At the youngest.

Okay this is interesting because it's like other people said, in der europa, we don't say 'dating' and stuff unless it means it'll get intimate. There's a local saying that if you go out with a girl more than 3 times without anything happening, then you're now girlfriends and can go buy underwear together and gossip about men. If that's what you're talking about okay. I'd be less... vocal, in your position, and just keep sticking around until she's grown-up enough to be with, personally, but you have to burst out with all this overeager love business. Okay, I guess.

Just be ready for when she gets her first real boyfriend while you're stuck riding shotgun in the friend seat. It'll be great. You'll enjoy pain.

Thank you for showing me the error in my ways. Perhaps I'll just join Helm's penis club and we can go Penis Clubbing together.

The offer still stands.

ToGetHer.

Holy shit I'm not gangbanging a 14 year old, you sick depraved christian.

At a certain age gap though the various uncalculable modifiers tend to edge towards a definite 'creepy' though. I can imagine 30 different ways a girl that is 17 is ready to have sex with a 25 year old, though I might not enjoy the concept on the abstract. But I cannot imagine a single case where it'd be okay and understandable under the particular circumstances for a 30 year old man to have sex with a 12 year old girl.

It is at that threshold towards certainty that most societies concerned with human rights draw a line, and call it a law.

EDIT: this isn't in reply to you, monkey, it's to the post before you. Hi, btw. I'll post about what you said later. I just wanted to let you know that of course all 'judgement' on you is obviously on very weak ground. This is the internet and all.

Correct, andail.

Some people are used to being kings of their peer group and having their opinion overshadow other opinions because people are put off by their loudness, or taken by their charisma and agree to everything they say, or just don't bother. This leads them to believe dissenting opinions just don't exist. When they hit the internets where opinionated people all over the world (possibly all little kings of that type described above) are merciless about letting you know what think, shock! OMG TEH INTERNETS RETARDED

You can't even punch people to make them shut up. The internet is just a bigger context of the same thing. That being said, this discussion as biothlebop said before was suprisingly civil and interesting considering what we were discussing and while I personally didn't walk off with any new information or points of view (besides 'other countries suck!' information about the UK or Paris) I wouldn't say it wasn't worth it for me.

Fee if you want to carry on talking to me I'll have to let you know how I feel about your opinions. You might not like that.

I think you should not adress me anymore.

I've had the taller thing. I didn't overcome it either.

my story is great:

I was alone for a few months, and looking, so on the way to a metal show (saw Atheist, they were AWESOME) I make an aquaintance with two girls on the train that looked like they were going to the show (blackclad, band tshirts, etc). One of them is stunningly beautiful. The other very pale, tall and ugly but not in the inoffensive generic plain-looking way, actually her appearane was generally unsettling. I'm not trying to be mean, but we've all had this so shut up, you're no better than me. Some people just disgust us.

Anyway, have I mentioned I am bad at discerning age? We talk a little and they show me where the live show place was, though I came early. I buy them drinks as means of thanks at a nearby coffee shop. The pretty girl is totally coming on to me, demands to sit next to me, is caressing my hair and all sorts of uncalled-for stuff within a period of 10 minutes. I converse a little with both of them, the older one is 20 years old, the younger one was 16. I instinctively sit a little further away from her and mumble something about jailbait. When I'm about to leave she asks for my number, I -flattered- make the mistake of giving the number. SHE WAS VERY PRETTY. I WANTED TO DEVOUR HER. SO SUE ME.

Now, I'll be frank, I was alone for a few months and I was grumbling to my friends about wanting to 'dissect woman' so I thought, if I don't have a go at it when I apportunities fall in my lap, then I'll be to blame for being alone. Yes, that's right, I went with it so I wouldn't lose my grumble rights. Still very half-hearted about it all, a new date is set up at the same place, two days later. Maybe she'll turn out to be charming and we'll have lots in common? Plus I'd get to usher her into the realms of perversion and depravity. gnaw gnaw gnaw


I've decided it was a bad idea within the first 5 minutes. She's DUMB. DUMB-DUMB, not immature. Stupid for her age even. She's the kind of person that I bet texts like this: "hey bbz i cnt believe her wat a cow you no i wud ave stuk up 4 you" or something. I learn that her parents are hard-right quasi-fascists, that she's failed a class at school (YES SHE GOES TO SCHOOL, OH GOD I HATE MYSELF WHAT AM I DOING) and other such interesting tidbits of information about her. Suddenly she's no longer a pretty girl in my eyes but a dumb child. She brought her older friend along which was annoying, but I thought since she's 16 maybe she brought backup to check me out thoroughly or something, anyway from a point and onwards I'm just trying to find a way out of there. Later the younger girl goes off to some other table for a while and leaves me and pale girl alone. Now by that point I am not only bored by the both of them, disheartened and feeling a very strong case of what-am-I-doing-here?itis, I am verging on a maligant mood. She talks to me and I am playing the 'there's nothing remarkable about me at all' routine, answering questions in single words and staring blankly at her belt buckle.

".........that's a nice belt buckle" I say. She says thanks.

The ice broken, she then proceeds to let me know about this boy in a band that frequents this caffee she likes, partly because that boys' sister comes about to say hello. She tells me she follows sports, like skiing. She tells me she and her mother argue. She asks me if I have a girlfriend. Now here I'm caught a bit off-guard. If I say yes then what the hell am I supposed to be doing there? If I say no, then I am leaving myself open to her to come on to me. So I reply with a very idiotic "Yyyyyees-n-nno. Depend's how you look at it." Then she tells me "well now, I guess since we know each other better I can tell you that I am bisexual".

I am not impressed. I am also not very interested in her sexuality but I reply "oh really. Do your like your girlfriend? She's cute isn't she?." She stares blankly at me, not amused. She follows it with "I like the sister of that boy in a band you met blah blah do you think that's a bit weird?" I follow that up with "no, not at all. That's a nice bundle of perversion right there. How about you go with both of them to bed so it's bisexuality, group sex, incest, and why don't you deny christ while you're at it to top it all of?"

There is a sea of silence between us. Crushing waves of blightful uncomfort parch my cracking skin. The utter unease that only two people in a forced conversation can bring upon themselves. I pay for the drinks and excuse myself. She asks won't I wait for whatever the hell the younger girls' name was and I say it's not necessary.

I leave that place forever.

I went home hoping that's the end of it, but she calls again two days later, the younger girl and she tells me she's sorry about stranding me the other time etc and I say it's okay. She asks if I'd like to see her again and I say 'I've decided you're a bit too young (AND DUMB. I didn't say it. I didn't say it!) for me" and she goes oh well can't we see each other as friends? I end this conversation with "I don't need any more friends."

That is my story!

Why Vict0r are you in a similar situation?

Come on, spill it. Spill it all. If you tell me what's up I promise I'll tell you all my embarassing 'Helm at 22 considers penising a 16-year-old girl' story.

Well as I said before Crete added that as a term in entering Greece so they're not technically breaking any law. And Mani is Mani. They have that odd vendetta tradition, yes. But an exception it is.

I agree to your general point.

Somebody said something about strict gun controls in Greece. I'm still laughing (Criti, Mani, vendetta...should I continue?)

Crete is Crete and Mani is Mani. Exceptions. But I do agree it's not just gun control on its own that does anything.


Darth, from all I've said on this thread, tell me what you want me to clarify and I'll gladly do it, then. Specific things.

I agree the soccer team is a bit much.

[persue your happiness]

Monkey, this post is for you. It's full of speculation about your character. If it's too much tell me to cut it out and I will. If you can stand the public conversation, you're quite brave.

I suppose that maybe you're right. Maybe I am just insane for falling for a girl that swears she only likes me as a friend.

I would speculate that you're not crazy, just very green in matters of love and you've fallen for a girl for the first time and you think it'll be the last. I am a dramatic person and I know how it is to make a drama out of something just so it feels 'fuller' than the same-ol' other people experience. But dude, take it easy. I mean the words won't help you'll crash and burn and learn on your own, but take it easy. You'll meet many girls in your life (especially if you drop the abstinence thing soon enough) and you'll enjoy the rest of your youth.

Wait. Post a picture of yourself please.

And I'm almost certainly insane for thinking it would be okay seeing as she agreed to go out with me....in a couple of years.

That's not creepy 'cause she's young. It's just creepy because you sound so desperate. You say it's true love that makes you so single-minded. I guarantee most of everyone involved first-hand in this situation sees you as TOTALLY DESPRERATE and hopes you catch a strange disease in your mission on the death star and never recover so they won't have to deal with your crazy obsessive behaviour anymore. Seriously.

There's one thing newbies at relationships totally do, especially if they're bright but reserved, emotional but insecure: they CLING. You're clinging. Not even to a real relationship - a great way to destroy a real relationship in the first place - but to a promise of a date made under pressing circumstances which she plans to if it ever comes to that have with you and get out of the way as quick as possible.

But the one thing we're all agreed on is that I am absolutely, completely and utterly insane for posting about it on the internet.

Unless you're some attention-seeker, I actually applaud you for standing up for yourself against the internets on this. I don't think you're insane, just brave. But also totally creepy.

I'm not wanting to pursue a sexual relationship with this girl. I believe in practicing sexual abstinence. That's right...I'm a virgin. And I'm proud of it.

While you're on your mission the girl you love will be penised by a boy she loves and enjoy it greatly and never give your bloated african-death-star diseased carcass a second thought.

Just keep this in mind while you're doing god's good work.

I was abstinent by choice for 3 years of my young life, not for religious but for philosophical reasons, and I don't regret it, I did it properly, I had no contact with women and didn't try to have placebo relationships where we'd hug and hold hands. The feeling of lust is the feeling of lust and you're a liar if you're telling me you don't lust after your love. If you do, you've sinned already, might as well penis and then ask for forgiveness from the lord, penis, ask, penis, ask, so on. If you're really serious about abstinence, you'll need to go the full way.

Even if things never do "work out" with this girl...I'll still be happy to have been her friend.

Though you might mean this, you're just putting yourself on the ground for people to walk over you. Your god might tell you this is a good thing to do. But life, you're alive because you're egotistical. You live for yourself. You have desires. If you want to fight them, try, I sure did. But go be a monk if you want to fight them. Don't lust after girls. Make up your mind. If you want to penis this girl - or any other, I suggest one your own age - then act like it and be an egotist. That's how it works. Love is mutual taking of advantage.

And it won't change the way I feel about her. She's the most amazing person I've ever met.

She'll be a 'lying harlot' to you in two years when she'll have had it by the whole soccer team while you pray to god to take away your boner. It'll be fun! Just wait!

Is it really so wrong of me to want to spend the rest of my life with her?

It's totally wrong to want to spend the rest of your life with a person that will not appreciate you, yes. You have a penis, it stands upright. Act like it. Be an animal, persue your happiness. Go have sex, and a drink, and spit on the bible while you're at it. Don't worry, god takes a joke, he made you to be like this.

What I want most though is for her to be happy. If she never falls for me, then so be it.

She'll never fall for you. You're clingy, obsessive, religiously fueled for confusion and dramatic. There WILL be women that will fall for this archetype though. Just not her. Leave her to the soccer team which will provide her easy non-commital sexual gratification without stupid valentines and dating. She just wants a penis, man. Not yours, though. Not god-penis.

I'm not going to deny my feelings just to appease your Creep-o-meters.

I don't want you to deny your feelings for this girl. I want you to deny god. Spit on him. Forget him. He's a liar. He gave you urges and then told you they're wrong. Forget christ, just have fun. Here's a card, call my number any time you want... I have a lodge full of like-minded friends I'd like to introduce you to... if you come, please wear black, or wear nothing at all.

Celebrate life. You got the spelling wrong. Not celibate life. Celebrate life.

But you all need to understand that I don't want a relationship with this girl right now. I want to, when she is older, pursue a relationship with her, yes. And if the relationship never advances beyond the level of "good friends" then I'm cool with that. And now that I've stated that three different times....

Okay, you're not a paedo.

Wait though, what if she came craving for your manly assets RIGHT NOW. Like 'I was all wrong now I see how pure your feelings were for me, how much you love me like nobody else will, please help me undo your pants, I'm struggling with buttons' what would you do? DON'T LIE! It's love! Love is pure! God loves love! God wants you to be together! PEEENISSS HEEER



you paedo.

The reason I spent $100 on her for Valentine's Day is because it was literally all the money I had.

holy shit.

I wanted to do something special for her. She didn't (doesn't) have a boyfriend, and so I knew that nobody was going to be giving her anything. I wanted to make her understand how much she means to me.

OBSESSIVE. she hasn't gone out with you. She means nothing to you. Your FANTASY of her means a lot to you. You're being dishoonest! You're being dishoonest! God disapproves.

So now I'm sure you all think that I was just trying to win her over by giving her all this crap. Think what you want, it wasn't about that. I'm really serious about this girl.

monkey, to say you're serious about a person would first require a looong-ass period of time spent together with that person. You haven't had that. Because even if she were interested, even if you spent some time together, a 14-year-old girl changes every month, sometimes to a completely different person. You're grown-up and creepy. You can only be serious about someone you know. Go get to know someone. If you want, wait for this girl to be about 20 then get to know her and perhaps you'll be serious about her when you've been with her for a couple of years.

Or just go out and find a girl your age now and stop wasting time.

I care about her more than anything else in the world. She means more to me than anything else in the world.

CREEPY. LOSER. Stand up for your penis! You love your life! You enjoy your life! Your LIFE means more to you than anything else in the world! Everything else comes second place!



hey, tell me how it all works out.   

So Americans who are gun activists (or I guess you're saying all Americans) are ignorant pawns brainwashed into an acquiescent state of fear and violence by some unnamed group. I'm having a hard time trying to determine whether or not I'm supposed to take this seriously.

Go write a love letter to your strawman.

It seems a little disingenuous to codify in law what you're allowed to do should the rule of law fail.

I don't see why. 'In the event of failure' is a very honest clause to put in a constitution. It's not the method of goverment that fails, it's he people that fail to enforce it properly.

[quote[I'm curious, how do you exercise this clause of your constitution? Does the government issue weapons to the population with instructions that they may only be used if dictatorship takes over?[/quote]

I'll tell you what happens. When the US-backed military extremists made a coup in greece, people fled to the mountains, supplied themselves, set up infrastructure and entered a guerilla war of atrittion. Any other questions?

Are there weapons depots available for civilians to access if the government is overthrown? As expressed â€" “you're not allowed to have weapons, but feel free to resist us should we decide to oppress you” â€" I suspect that this may not really mean anything at all.

I suspect you are historically ignorant.

Gun control certainly can be an issue if the people trying to fight for democracy don't have access to the weapons they need to oppose dictatorship.

When there's a need for weapons, there will be weapons. You can steal weapons, get them from other countries or what-have-you. You don't have to have them in your living room.

It seems to me that if you grew up in an environment where guns were readily available, handled responsibly, and your parents taught you how to use them out in your backyard, you might have a more permissive view of guns without the requirement of being ignorant, morally misaligned, or pathologically violent.

If I grew up around guns, were taught to use them in my own back yard by my parents, we better the hell have been a family of hunters. Otherwise I'm being taught a method of precise and clean murder, oh, if the need ever arises or something. That's a culture of violence.

In other parts of the world, where there's mandatory army service, every male undergoes training with weapons in the case there's a war. But the military doesn't try to dress it up. They teach you how to use lethal weapons in the case you have to kill someone. Not in the case you have to bully someone by putting a gun on the back of their head because you're deathly scared of them.

... is this civilization, democracy and mild tempered tolerance?

Sure, why not? I have to wonder which society is more civilized: society 1, where violent crime doesn't exist because weapons are outlawed so potential criminals can't get weapons, or society 2, where violent crime doesn't exist because everyone has weapons so potential criminals fear reprisal.

In both of the scenarios you present there's supposedly less violence because potential evildoers fear reprisal. In the first scenario, by the officials in the case one has an illegal weapon. In the second, against civilians because they might shoot you. Obviously, the first scenario is quite a bit more civilized. The second is law of the west.

Regardless, it seems a bit overkill to dismiss a society as uncivilized simply because you disagree with one aspect of its culture.

I think you need to check up on your strawman again. I never said anyone is uncivilized. I criticized an aspect of their culture. An aspect that threatens democracy and civilization, potentially. I wish people were more interested in understanding what I'm saying, asking for clarifications if they need them, instead of being all about giving me their opposing view.

So you (and many others) are indirectly attributing the idea of gun ownership to a culture of violence and general disregard for human life.

Sure.

That sounds like a straw man to me.

I am sorry, you might want to check your philosophical lexicon on that one. Because you're abusing the term. An opinion is never a strawman. A strawman is when you make of someone else's opinion, a weaker but similar one so you may dismiss it easily.

Actually, you've made this argument explicitly in your opening statement, along with claims of societal manipulation and programming, based on nothing other than your opinion

Sure. I am engaged in a social discussion, not a scientific analysis. Nor I, nor you, have the means to suggest more than half-informed, semi-intuitive positions on how geopolitics work. Your attempt to usurp a methodological high-ground here is upsetted by your inability to supply me with zillions of links to irrefutable data. So,

The implications of this are somewhat unsettling.

Perhaps you should go back to check on your strawmen. You really like arguing but you're not worth arguing with because you're too invovled in poking holes in the arguments of others as an end to itself instead of honest discussion. My need is not to argue needlessly here, though as you can see it's very easy to humble your reactionary reasoning. It is to exchange opinions and information. If you have an opinion, let's hear it.

Isn't that the whole point of going to the facts â€" to formulate one's own opinions by combining fact with one's own system of beliefs and morals?

The whole point, my eager eager friend, is to realize that data can be read in many ways, there's no irrefutable evidence, every piece of sociological data can be attributed to a plethora of causes and nobody is an expert in this discussion. Exactly because of this, it is pointless for me to state my sources (which are mainly greek newspapers) or try to find 'numbers' for you. This discussion is one mainly of ethics and not one of hard facts. Some facts (like the number of deaths in the us by handguns) are useful for some arguments, but I'm not rubbing them in anyone's face like they are god's truth on the subject.

And if you'd like to talk morality, no, no system of morality is based on any sort of fact. They're all equally invented, socratic organons that we've devised for a number of reasons, less making sense of reality and more enforcing opinion on reality.

Have a drink.

I don't understand where this requirement for everyone to be in agreement with “The One Correct Opinion” comes from.

That is because this statement is a strawman. I never said I am correct, nor that I want anyone to agree with my Opinion. I consider all statements to be subjective and epistemologically troubled. I value communication over agreement. If I wanted you to agree with me on something I'd never ask you your opinion. A silent agreement suits me fine.

My theories are just theories. Like your theories. They all fail amazingly at approaching a description of the infinite interfacing complexity that is reality. If you're arguing for truth, discuss with someone else.

So it seems to me we can either resign ourselves to repeatedly pounding on the table and yelling “No, you're wrong!” at each other â€" which I find is the normal course of events â€" or prepare ourselves to try and understand the other side's viewpoint, possibly bringing our own into question, and come to some constructive compromise or common ground. Might the latter method lead us to that goal of civilized, democratic, mild-tempered tolerance regardless of one's opinions?

I'm not being uncivilized, I think. Do you think I'm being uncivilized? I'm mild-tempered, surely. To endure this thread certainly makes me more zen by the minute.


Darth:

I would agree that the examples I pointed out in this thread weren't particularly "harsh".  But as I stated above, my point was simply that these "blanket" statements were made that weren't clarified.

then ask them for clarifications, don't ask them why they hate america.

I forgot something I wanted to say. You people talk lots about maturity and I see that point, but what about physical maturity and comfort with the sexual aspect? It surely takes a bit of time for girls to get comfortable with it, especially seeing how they're archetypically invaded and all. I don't think most 16-year old girls are always ready for that sort of thing. I first had sex at about that age and I somewhat regret it, and I'm a guy. I was strongly pressured by my peer group, though of course it all evened out after all, but there's better ways to enter the realm of sexuality than that.

Given all this, I'd feel very bad and awkward to be trying to ensnare a 16-year old into penising her at my age. People who are 25 perhaps should be looking for equally responsible sexual partners, but then again I see the 'first relationship, afraid of the girls' experience' point. It gets pretty strange-feeling when the girl I'm with has a more thorough history of perversion than me (quite difficult, but has happened) and therefore has had sexual experiences I haven't so I can't even begin to get in the mindset of how strange it might feel to be courting a girl that's done all that while you're a virgin at 25.

A lot about the confidence to flirt comes from knowing what you're doing. So in a way I can see how it's easier to court a teenager, as they're very superficial and just 'looking grown-up' makes you awesome to them.

I suspect a culture clash in this case. As to what constitutes an opinion, what an attack, what is warranted and unwarranted.

I've ran into this mainly with americans (see this isn't a bash, this is an empyrical observation) on the internet who are seemingly insulted by that I have opinions, and that I voice them in their presense constitutes an attack. They treat opinion as antagonism whereas I voice opinion for discussion.

I attribute it to that the US has no history of heavy cultural declaration or political dialogue whereas at least I come from greece (and many european countries like Spain or France) where it's hard to walk 10 steps without someone getting into a heated dialogue about the goverment's lackings in policy with you. It's alright to have opinions, though that means it's alright for other people to have opinions also and you should be prepared to endure them in all their seeming ignorance or wrongness. You'll notice I've never ever ever on this forum tried to tell people to stop saying something. I might disagree with what they say hugely, but I will not tell them to cut it out. It's suprizing for me that for example, Nacho, who when we were sitting at a table in greek mittens drew a whole political map of Spain on a tablecloth to explain the current political climate there, now asks self-censorship on the part of forum users in matters of 'america bashing'. Since when did it become not okay for people to have opinions on the subject, Nacho? Just because you've obviously had this argument with your real-life aquaintances too much and you're burnt out on it now it's not okay to talk about it on the forum?

Anyway.

It's not just the US, the UK in my opinion the strongest and most rigid class society as well, has its own way to deal with this. They tolerate 'opinions' better than the US people do, just as long as you're not very loud, and are polite. And easy to ignore.

If there's no hate, there's no bash, Darth. I could say something that is ill-founded or not founded at all about your country's faults, and we can discuss if it's founded or not, but it never becomes a bash unless there's malevolence involved. I might say 'to the best of my knowledge dolphins are fish' and someone can come in and correct me that they're mammals and that doesn't constitute an attack on how awesome dolphins are. I can theorize something, like a connection between violent culture and violent crime in a country without this meaning that I want to see said country in flames for its faults.

You're just super defensive, even for an american.

Any example threads off the top of your head that you could point me to?

Damn you for makin' me take the time ...

Should guns be outlawed, not because of what they are, but because American society breeds people crazy enough to use them?

While I feel for the victims of the university, I can't help but feel America's created this problem all by itself.

Also, with my previous statement that while I felt for the VT victims, I couldn't help but think America brought this onto itself, I meant exactly that.

Still, afaik, it's not even up to a tenth of what's in America...

It's obvious there's some interference then, because I don't see any of these quotes as HATEFUL BASHING of america.

The fact that her parents wouldn't let us date right now even if we wanted to makes it easier on my part, and though right now she just likes me as a friend, she did agree to go out with me when I return from my mission.

Creepy as hell.

Is there a contract written in blood?

Monkey, relationships are much easier when you want a person and the person wants you. Without level grinds and parents and whatnot. Find someone your age.


Creepy.

I can see that at 38 - 48. People are pretty much what they'll remain to be on a lot of ways at 38.

I did go out with someone who was ten years older than me (28 - 38), but I never noticed any difference between us.

Was this person a girl? Did you search thoroughly enough?

We are carefull when we talk about 197 countries of the World. We simply loss that care when we talk about America. And that is unfair, because changing the personal behaviour in front of a person because its "race, religion, sex or precedure" is discrimination, I think.

we are not talking about america on the whole. How many times will this have to be repeated until you get it, Nacho? We are talking about specific possible pathology with aspects of its culture or administration. The only one perpetuating this 'people vs america HATE SPEECH!' thing is you, and a few users on the forum who also misconstrue criticism of specific aspects of a culture as a hateful bash against the whole country of people.

You are creating what you complain is your problem. It's not real. You are making it exist. This is what happened before, this is what happens now, this is why you left the forums before. How much longer before you realize america doesn't need you to stand up for it in these forums as we're not attacking america on the whole.

If you want to criticize the internal policies of the russians, go right ahead. If I have anything pertinent to add I'll be right there.

oh, darth.